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With all the trouble Wood Elves get from the abominable Doomwheel, I was really excited when I thought I found a way around it that I had never seen or heard of before. When building my sisters of twilight for funnies I looked over there stats and stuff and Naestra's bow caught my eye. It states that any unit hit must take a strength test in its movement phase using the lowest value if there are more then one, if it is failed then that unit can't move next turn. I instantly thought of the Doomwheels crew of rats, which are strength 2. Am I right in thinking that if Naestra targets this unit then they must take a strength test on the lowest available strength of the rats, rather then the chariot itself? I've looked through the chariot page in the rule book and found nothing referring to strength tests, only that the crew use there own strength for attacking. Someone else said that with multi-profile creatures you always use the highest when taking a test, but how does this conflict with Naestra's bow saying use the lowest? For example strength 3 horses and strength 4 riders. I just wanted to put this here because it was pulling my army list threads to bits (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547813.page). Anyone have a definite answer on how this will work?

I'm the evil mastermind in disagreement with our Wood elf there

my argument is that a Doomwheel is a unit of 1 model, said model having a Strenght of 6 for all purposes (except when the rats are attacking in CC), so that the lowest strenght within the unit is S6.
While a unit of Rat Ogres with Packmasters would obviously have to test under a S3 which is the lowest strenght of all the models in the unit

In the unit entry for the Doomwheel in the Skaven book, is there just a single profile listed or are there multiple profiles (such as for Chariot or Cavarly models)?

Multiple, like other chariots and Cavalry. My counter argument is that in the army book the Doomwheels unit composition is 1 Doomweel + Crew, so the crew are part of the unit, and it is them I am forcing the test upon.

Then you use the lowest strength available, on the proile.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then you use the lowest strength available, on the proile.

That's the interpretation I lean towards, too.

Then Treason of Tzeench would use the Ld of mounts, which it does not

TanKoL wrote:
Then Treason of Tzeench would use the Ld of mounts, which it does not

Why not? Has it been FAQ'd, or does it specifically say otherwise?

Because the rules of this snazzy bow of Wood Elf-ness, or whatever it is called, say quite clearly to use the lowest strength of the model. So if I'm a T4 guy on a T3 horse, I use T3. If I'm on a T6 dragon, I'd use my T4.

No, you use the lowest Strenght in the unit, it's not the same at all
Doomwheel has 2 Strenghts in its profile, but its strenght within the unit is S6

TanKoL wrote:
Then Treason of Tzeench would use the Ld of mounts, which it does not

Actually, it does.

The lowest strength in the unit, means the lowest from every stat line for that particular unit.

HOWEVER, a characteristic test uses the highest stat in the unit IIRC, unless specified otherwise. And since the doomwheel is a unit, and has multiple strengths, the arrow would use the lowest statline available, aka the S2 crew.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
Then Treason of Tzeench would use the Ld of mounts, which it does not

Actually, it does.

The lowest strength in the unit, means the lowest from every stat line for that particular unit.

HOWEVER, a characteristic test uses the highest stat in the unit IIRC, unless specified otherwise. And since the doomwheel is a unit, and has multiple strengths, the arrow would use the lowest statline available, aka the S2 crew.

Yup pg.10, it says you always use highest but army book>BRB in cases of contradiction.

Why would treason use the Ld of the mount when it's specifically said that this stat is never ever used in any case?
Though I admit that the arrow could affect the Doomwheel, not that I'd care much ... Doomwheels work better in pairs

Because you do use the Ld of the mount, when it is the lowest stat. As the spell states.

You may play otherwise, but that doesnt follow the rules.

TanKoL wrote:
Why would treason use the Ld of the mount when it's specifically said that this stat is never ever used in any case?

Because every BRB rule is overridden if there by an army book rule that is in direct conflict with it.
In this case the wording for Treason.

If the doomwheel were a war machine, there would be an arguement that the crew's strengthwwasn't used, because the war macjine is the extent of the unit - much trickier to say which to use then IMO. It isn't, so S2 it is.
For treason, does it say unmodified leadership?

It' says "lowest in the unit".
As such you look at the relevant unit's profile and see what the lowest number is under LD.

If it doesn't say unmodified, then isn't the lowest leadership still the rider's, because the BRB says that they are one model? Similarly, if there is a character in the unit, or they are within IP, isn't that the lowest leadership? Unless it either says unmodified or "lowes leadership on a profile"

You know what, all these questions are answered in the spell's description.
This forum isn't, and never will be, a replacement for a book.

What is the lowest leadership out of Ld5 and Ld 8?

Hint: it isnt Ld8

That spell really drove my poor ripperdactyls rabid the last time i encountered it, it was actually quite ingenious of him.

Well earlier I used this to good use on a Lizardman Stegadon who was about to charge my treekin with that thing that does d3 wounds per impact wound. He failed the Skinks strength test and allowed me to charge him, breaking it and charging straight through into his skink star (Don't ask...) who they also butchered (They where Wildformed).

Let's say hypothetically a Skaven caster threw wildform on the Doomwheel. Would not both the crew and chariot benefit from the strength bonus because they comprise the unit?

Yes they would.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What is the lowest leadership out of Ld5 and Ld 8?

Hint: it isnt Ld8

Ld 5!

Ooooh, so close, it was actually Ld0, I just didnt tell you abou that one