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Ok so I wanted to start to build an imperial guard army but really have no idea how to do it. I know I do not have everything that I need but I was wanting to do an army out of infantry platoons. Here are my questions

1. Special weapons squads. No list I have seen seems to take them. Are they just to flimsy?
2. Heavy weapons squads. While I have seen them in some lists not everyone seems to take them. Do you have to mix them into your infantry squads to make use of them?
3. Al'rahem? any good? I know he is expensive but looks like fun to play with
4. Are mixed units required to make it work?

I was thinking about running something like this

ccs with all of the regimental advisors
lord commissar (cause they are cool no idea where to put this guy cause he will murder someone important)

Al'rahims platoon command squad
standard, las pistol, las pistol, vox caster
(for assaulting stuff)

Al'rahims platoon

infantry squad
infantry squad
infantry squad
One Big squad?

special weapons flamers
Special weapons grenades

Another platoon command squad kitted the same way as al'rahims

infantry squad
infantry squad
infantry squad
heavy weapons squad
heavy weapons squad
heavy weapons squad

something like this maybe ad in harkers vets with sniper guns?

rothrich wrote:
1. Special weapons squads. No list I have seen seems to take them. Are they just to flimsy?

Too flimsy and too little firepower. Special weapons need a transport to deliver them, and SWS are not an efficient use of transports when veterans are available.

2. Heavy weapons squads. While I have seen them in some lists not everyone seems to take them. Do you have to mix them into your infantry squads to make use of them?

Too fragile. Without the meatshield of an infantry squad they're extremely vulnerable to STR 6+ and even basic guns kill them quickly. It's not the end of the world if you take a HWS once your infantry squads all have LCs, but you don't want to take them if you still have infantry squads without heavy weapons.

3. Al'rahem? any good? I know he is expensive but looks like fun to play with

Can be good. Outflanking a whole platoon is obviously powerful, but you need to build your list around it.

4. Are mixed units required to make it work?

Depends on what you mean by "mixed units". If you mean "can I take nothing but infantry platoons and expect to win" then no, you can't. IG win with tanks and flyers, if you aren't taking them you're not going to win very often.

ccs with all of the regimental advisors

Waste of points. CCS either get 4x melta/plasma in a Chimera/Vendetta in a vet list or a LC/standard and sit in the back to issue orders to a foot list. Also, the advisors are extremely expensive and not worth it. I'd maybe consider the astropath if you're building around Al'rahem, but the other ones aren't really giving you very much to justify their points.

lord commissar (cause they are cool no idea where to put this guy cause he will murder someone important)

Waste of points. The commissar is there to fix morale problems and is unlikely to ever kill anything. If you don't need morale fixing then leave the commissar at home.

Al'rahims platoon command squad

Wasted points. A PCS is never going to kill anything in assault, so the standard is a waste. And then you're wasting the option to outflank 4x melta/plasma with BiD. So give the PCS 4x melta and a Chimera.

infantry squad
infantry squad
infantry squad
One Big squad?

Needs weapon upgrades. Melta/plasma and LC in each squad for a shooting list, or melta and power axe sergeants/commissars if you for some reason want to assault with them. IG infantry exist to deliver the upgrade weapons, taking a squad without upgrade weapons is like taking a tactical squad but removing the power armor and bolters.

special weapons flamers
Special weapons grenades

The flamer SWS will never survive to shoot anything and is only useful if you're putting them in a Vendetta for the cheapest possible scoring unit. The grenade launcher SWS is garbage because grenade launchers are terrible no matter what you're shooting at. Drop both of these.

something like this maybe ad in harkers vets with sniper guns?

Snipers are a waste. You wound on a 4+ and only ignore armor saves 1/3 of the time. Meanwhile plasma wounds on better than a 4+ and ignores armor saves all of the time. And really Harker is a waste, you have lots of infantry already so adding more basic infantry is redundant.

SWSs and HWSs suffer from the same problems. While their firepower per point is pretty darn good, but after that, everything falls apart. They can't take a transport. They're slow (especially bad for SWSs), and they're very fragile (especially bad in a world of first blood). Add to this the fact that they score and have an unfavorable killing power to durability ratio, and your opponents are going to put them very high up on their list of targets.

Of course, if you're even considering taking these at all, that means you're running platoons, which means you're very unlikely to be bringing chimeras, which means that those S5-8 heavy weapons your opponents have likely don't have any better targets than your flimsy, high-firepower weapon squads.

As for al'rahem... the main problem with him is that he's going to work on any given opponent roughly once. Then they're going to see him coming, and they're not going to deploy near the edges of the board anymore. This means that you're splitting up your army at the beginning, and likely keeping it split up until the end of the game, and for not much gain. He was pretty cool in 5th ed where you could bring him on, give the squad a free D6" move and then instigate a 6" charge straight from reserves, but now you can't do that anymore.

Were I to run him now, I'd probably keep it light. Al'rahem with some plasma guns for his squad, and two infantry squads with meltaguns. 265 points isn't too onerous of a burden at higher points levels, and it would allow you to be annoying to your opponents' objectives.

As for mixed units, what do you mean by that?

As for your list, the biggest problem is that you've got vacant weapon slots in more durable units, while you're paying extra carrier costs for things that are less durable.

What you've got there is a 1000 point list. With a few minor tweaks, it could be more like...

CCS - lascannon, MoO, standard
Lord commissar - plasma pistol, power fist

stormtroopers (5) - 2x melta guns
Marbo

PCS - Al rahem, 3x plasma
PIS - meltagun
PIS - meltagun

PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun

ADL - icarus lascannon

That way you've got a fire base in cover, and you've got al'rahem (possibly with the lord commissar), marbo, and some stormtroopers running interference somewhere else. Or you could drop the elites choices and throw their 170 points at something else. If you want harker, this would be about the right points cost to include him.

Al'rahem is pretty useful, and his platoon can work with most special weapons. Obvious uses include getting flamers/meltas into range faster, but plasma and even GL getting shots on side armour can be useful.

With regards to mixed units, you will need some variation obviously, but a mostly-foot list with a couple of tanks can still be effective. Fliers are only essential if your meta includes them already, otherwise there are usually ground vehicles that can do the same job better if you don't have to worry about AA.

A novel use for HWTs if you really want them is to run them with just mortars, out of LOS, and treat them like mini-artillery. The ability to barrage fire mitigates their weakness to giving FB and high-S weapons, and the different target type for mortars makes them less reliant of orders. That said, using them as LC in infatry squads is the priority.

If you like the idea of SWS and their ability to concentrate special weapons effectively, consider running vets in a chimera or on foot, as they can still take 3 specials, but have access to Carapace armour or Camo Cloaks to boost their survivability, or chimeras to make them more mobile, and have better L and BS. A couple of squads of vets can make a goor 'second wave' or flanking force for a platoon-based list.

Lord Commissars are cool, it has to be said, and not detrimental to the army, as a large blob (or 2 if you position him well) can really benefit from Ld 10 for orders, and Stubborn will make you far less likely to run from combat and lose an entire platoon through SA. Give him a PP/PF and stick him in a blob. Bear in mind that he will default to being you warlord, so keep him with plenty of meat-shields.

Other options to consider for a foot based list:

Primaris Psyker: Can roll on biomancy to get some good buffs/debuffs, and at worst can add some AP2 shots to a squad with Smite. Cpdex powers are also good at providing more mid-strength firepower.

Ogryn: a controversial choice, but in a foot list can provide good force concentration, add a good assault or counter charge unit, and work well in concert with a Lord Commissar.

Artillery batteries/manticores : These can provide good fire support from in cover/out of LOS, and can take out hreats to the infantry from early on.

Hope that helps.

If you are going with a foot list paradigm had helped me build a pretty mean foot list with a little bit of russes and air support to help. Im currently at work and cant attach the link to the thread where we built the list but i will do that once i get the chance.

Around how many points do you plan on playing?


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I also dont have much to say myself as the other 3 that have posted all have "generally" the same idea of how guard can be done and if i went on to critique or answer your questions itwould be like beating a dead horse. Deffinitly take the time to read all the advice.

A Tallarn desert raiding fore would be a good army to build. For the fluff.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/544790.page heres the link to the thread, theres a bunch of other tactics you might find helpful in the thread.

I have been running a mechanized army for a while and have actually found that the Lord Commissar adds a bit to that style.

For a guy with limited chimeras, the LC can just attach to one of the vets and ride along. When your transports pop, the vets get to use the LD10 bubble.

One the topic of the Al'Rahem platoon, I have a question. Would this particular setup be effective?

PCS with AlRahem and 4x melta guns

PIS: Commissar, flamer, Krak Grenades, Comissar and Sergeant have Power Axes
3x PIS: Flamer, Krak Grenades, Sergeant has a Power Axe

That setup for Al'rahem looks to be good, delivering meltas up field and getting an assault unit close to the enemy. If you can survive the initial enemy shooting, that could actually provide a way of getting an assault blob into combat. I wouldn't bother with the grenades, as you can use the PCS to attack vehicles with the meltas.

 Paradigm wrote:
That setup for Al'rahem looks to be good, delivering meltas up field and getting an assault unit close to the enemy. If you can survive the initial enemy shooting, that could actually provide a way of getting an assault blob into combat. I wouldn't bother with the grenades, as you can use the PCS to attack vehicles with the meltas.

The grenades are for MCs, in the event I run into one. I could swap them with melta bombs if I needed to.

If I had spare chimeras, the PCS would be in one. But as I generally run a mech list, those chimeras are busy transporting mech vets.

I see, but I'm still not sold on the grenades, I'd just try and avoid MCs if possible. If you see a lot of MCs, then they might be useful, but I'd advise against them in a TAC list.

If you accidentally wind up in CC with a MC, then yeah, use those kraks. If you're bringing something on purpose to handle MCs in close combat, then there's no substitute whatsoever for meltabombs.

Were it not for carapace or camo cloaks, that's almost enough for me to want to take demolitions on vets...

Guys thanks for all the help! Ailaros, I love your hand of the king battle reports. I just snagged myself 3 mortar teams 2 rocket teams and an auto cannon team to ad to the 45 or so foot guys and commissar i have. I really have no direction but I do know that I want my list to be mostly on foot. I have thought about taking a scout sentinal or two just to stick in heavy firepower in close real quick to absorb shots from a unit for a turn. I would like to keep my force right around 1500 points. That will give me some room to change some things around at the 100 to 1250 level with the ability to push it up to 1500 if I want to.

If you take sentinels, I'd recommend you think carefully about what you want to do with them.

I'd find that Armoured sentinels work better than Scout sentinels, simply because they are on the table in turn one.
(Hide them out of LOS if you go second.)

Also it's nice to see people trying out Infantry guard. There's certainly a lot more to Guard than what the intertnet says.

loner wrote:
I'd find that Armoured sentinels work better than Scout sentinels, simply because they are on the table in turn one.

They're also ridiculously expensive. A single AC armored Sentinel costs as much as an AC Chimera or Salamander and has less firepower and less durability. And of course if you're willing to accept not having them shooting on turn 1 in exchange for vastly superior results on turns 2-7 a Vendetta makes a cruel joke out of the poor Sentinel.

loner wrote:I'd find that Armoured sentinels work better than Scout sentinels, simply because they are on the table in turn one.

They're also surprisingly problematic to kill. A squad of three has 6HP, which makes them somewhat resistant to HP stripping, and because there's three vehicles, you have to roll a vehicle explodes result three times, instead of just once. They're also small models that can very easily get cover saves. And they can still tarpit in CC, what with front armor of 12. And they don't care about skyfire to boot.

I was playing around with them towards the end of my guard stint recently, and found that they occupy a really annoying position. It's tough to justify throwing a lot of firepower into AV12 in cover, especially since you're going to do what, stop a single BS3 lascannon from shooting? But if you don't do anything about them, then you get turn after turn of methodical lascannon fire turn 1 until the end of the game.

A vendatta costs 130 points and can be taken down before it even has the chance of shooting, because of interceptor.

The sentinels don't care about that.

The vendatta can claim cover, but needs to dive and thus resort to snapfiring the next turn.

The sentinel can move around in cover the whole game and be fine.

The vendatta cannot engage in close combat, but the sentinel can.

loner wrote:
The sentinels don't care about that.

Nonsense. Look at the situation on turn 2 right before you shoot. The Vendetta has faced one round of shooting from any interceptor guns your opponent has. The Sentinels have faced one round of shooting from every gun your opponent has.

The vendatta can claim cover, but needs to dive and thus resort to snapfiring the next turn.

Depends on the terrain. Nothing prevents a Vendetta from gaining a normal cover save if you have tall enough terrain.

The vendatta cannot engage in close combat, but the sentinel can.

Which is a drawback, really. The Sentinel can be locked in combat and turned into a useless paperweight, the Vendetta can't.

 Ailaros wrote:

loner wrote:I'd find that Armoured sentinels work better than Scout sentinels, simply because they are on the table in turn one.

They're also surprisingly problematic to kill. A squad of three has 6HP, which makes them somewhat resistant to HP stripping, and because there's three vehicles, you have to roll a vehicle explodes result three times, instead of just once. They're also small models that can very easily get cover saves. And they can still tarpit in CC, what with front armor of 12. And they don't care about skyfire to boot.

I was playing around with them towards the end of my guard stint recently, and found that they occupy a really annoying position. It's tough to justify throwing a lot of firepower into AV12 in cover, especially since you're going to do what, stop a single BS3 lascannon from shooting? But if you don't do anything about them, then you get turn after turn of methodical lascannon fire turn 1 until the end of the game.

To get to the output of a vendetta you need 3 sentinels. With lascannons, the armored sentinel costs 70 points. So it's 210 points just to get the same number of weapons. Which are not even twin linked. You can get that with a ally psyker. The cheapest one I can think of that will give you other benefits is Coteaz. After you factor that in, to get the same output as a single vendetta, you need to spend over 300 points for sentinels.

The sentinel has limited firing angles as well that cannot be adjusted easily. Furthermore, it can't carry scoring troops. This is a big point as IG has very limited mobility in terms of getting scoring units across the table.

Finally, you say that the sentinel is going to be ignored because it's a 70 point BS 3 lascannon. There's a downside to that. It's a 70 point BS 3 lascannon.

How on earth do you point out qualities of units other than their weapons then immediately boil them down to nothing but their firepower-per-point.

Because the vendetta is a better delivery vehicle for lascannons and its other qualities are also better?

Yeah, but it's not just about the amount of firepower per shot.

Vendettas can carry troops - troops that are instantly incinerated when the vendetta is shot down, making that fireball a more expensive fireball. Vendettas can move faster, but they can only move at 90 degree angles, which is a much more serious mobility limitation. Vendettas are also nothing more than nuisance killing power, while sentinels can practice board control.

You pay more with sentinels for their amount of killing power, yes, but killing power isn't the only thing that matters. And that's before you start throwing in other problems like how the sentinels aren't vulnerable to interceptor or skyfire, and are never required to get close to their targets to be able to shoot at them (while the vendetta is stuck either moving towards them, or banking away, in which case they can't shoot at them anymore), and that vendettas aren't big on getting cover saves without being forced to snap fire, etc. etc.

If you look at it by a single metric while giving lip service to others, then yeah, vendettas look better. Looking at it more comprehensively, though, armored sentinels aren't THAT bad.

Do people take vox casters? Or are they just a waste of points and spots in a command squad? You can't take a vox caster and a special weapon on the same model can you?

 Ailaros wrote:
If you look at it by a single metric while giving lip service to others, then yeah, vendettas look better. Looking at it more comprehensively, though, armored sentinels aren't THAT bad.

They really are. I know you want to find any excuse possible to avoid using "overpowered" Vendettas and convince everyone else to do the same, but you're just wrong about this. The Vendetta can go into hover mode, instantly negate all of the "drawbacks" you mentioned, and still be far better at everything than LC Sentinels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rothrich wrote:
Do people take vox casters? Or are they just a waste of points and spots in a command squad? You can't take a vox caster and a special weapon on the same model can you?

Voxes are usually a waste. The units you want to give orders to are either LD 9-10 already (don't forget your commissars) or can't take voxes (HWS). I suppose if you have a command squad sitting back with a LC and never getting into range to use a melta/plasma gun you might as well take a vox instead of a lasgun, but any aggressive CCS is going to take 4x melta/plasma.

And no, you can't take the vox and special weapon on the same model. If you could it would be a lot easier to justify taking them.

rothrich wrote:Do people take vox casters? Or are they just a waste of points and spots in a command squad? You can't take a vox caster and a special weapon on the same model can you?

No, a guardsman with a special or heavy weapon can't have one, and no, most people don't take voxes. Ld8 is decent enough for the quality boost that orders give, and the cost of a vox net is prohibitive, given the cheap, cheap cost of just taking more weapons.

Plus, the units you REALLY want to accept orders (SWSs and HWSs) can't even take them. Meanwhile, it's very likely that who you're giving orders to is embarked (vets) and thus can't receive them, or are split into a bunch of little squads with only a single BS3 weapon that you want to give orders to (platoons), which isn't worth the price of upgrading to a vox.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
If you look at it by a single metric while giving lip service to others, then yeah, vendettas look better. Looking at it more comprehensively, though, armored sentinels aren't THAT bad.

They really are. I know you want to find any excuse possible to avoid using "overpowered" Vendettas and convince everyone else to do the same, but you're just wrong about this. The Vendetta can go into hover mode, instantly negate all of the "drawbacks" you mentioned, and still be far better at everything than LC Sentinels.

"And that's before you start throwing in other problems like how the sentinels aren't vulnerable to interceptor or skyfire... and that vendettas aren't big on getting cover saves without being forced to snap fire, etc. etc."

You know, straight-up lying in your zeal to attack anyone who doesn't want to use a Vendetta doesn't help you.

 Talore wrote:
You know, straight-up lying in your zeal to attack anyone who doesn't want to use a Vendetta doesn't help you.

Sigh. You shouldn't accuse people of lying when you have no clue what you're talking about.

Interceptor fire is a non-issue because the Sentinels can be shot at on turn 1. At the beginning of your second turn's shooting phase both the Sentinel and Vendetta have faced at least one enemy shooting phase, and the Sentinel has potentially faced two if your opponent went first. The only difference is that the Vendetta could only be shot at by interceptor guns (and only effectively by AA guns), while the Sentinel could be shot at by everything in your opponent's army. Yes, the Sentinel could potentially shoot on turn 1 without any return fire if you go first, but overall it's a lot more vulnerable.

Cover saves are explicitly covered by "you can hover and negate all of the drawbacks, while still being better than the Sentinels". A Vendetta in hover mode has an automatic 5+ cover save regardless of terrain, so this is actually better than the Sentinel. And of course if you stay in flyer mode the Vendetta is more durable against the vast majority of weapons. Forcing snap shots is MUCH better protection than a cover save.

Vendettas should only have 30 to 50 points of scoring units inside since they are going to stay inside for most of the game or go down with the bird.

SWS are only useful for mech armies. The lack of dedicated transport isn't an issue, just give a nakid squad a chimera and stick the naked squad in a vendetta. Hop in the Cimera turn 1=problem solved.

Here is the real debate

120 points for SWS 3 melta in another squad's chimera or 155 for clasic melta vets.

or 135 v 170 for plasma

Are the cost savings worth it? Depends on the rest of the list. IMO if you're overspent and it hurts too much to cut points elsewhere downgrading vets to a sws may be the way to go.

Though part of the problem with SWSs in vendettas is that then you have to buy an infantry platoon for them. Even if you use the PCS as a special weapons platform, you're still having to spend more than the cost of a vet squad to do it. Yes, the vets are going to be spending most of the game doing nothing, but... well... what are two PISs really going to be accomplishing? At least the vets have the option to eventually get out and shoot stuff most anywhere on the board, rather than being cooped up in cover somewhere, waiting to get slaughtered.

The only time I'd see using a SWS (or PCS) for this purpose is if you're already bringing a foot horde, and a bunch of vendettas, and so you can, for no extra charge, throw in some SWSs to make the vendettas quasi-scoring. I don't know if I've ever seen a list like this, personally, though.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Talore wrote:
You know, straight-up lying in your zeal to attack anyone who doesn't want to use a Vendetta doesn't help you.

Sigh. You shouldn't accuse people of lying when you have no clue what you're talking about.

Interceptor fire is a non-issue because the Sentinels can be shot at on turn 1. At the beginning of your second turn's shooting phase both the Sentinel and Vendetta have faced at least one enemy shooting phase, and the Sentinel has potentially faced two if your opponent went first. The only difference is that the Vendetta could only be shot at by interceptor guns (and only effectively by AA guns), while the Sentinel could be shot at by everything in your opponent's army. Yes, the Sentinel could potentially shoot on turn 1 without any return fire if you go first, but overall it's a lot more vulnerable.

Cover saves are explicitly covered by "you can hover and negate all of the drawbacks, while still being better than the Sentinels". A Vendetta in hover mode has an automatic 5+ cover save regardless of terrain, so this is actually better than the Sentinel. And of course if you stay in flyer mode the Vendetta is more durable against the vast majority of weapons. Forcing snap shots is MUCH better protection than a cover save.

You're blatantly ignoring things that have been brought up before like smaller target profiles, more hull points, tarpitting, being able to shoot on turn 1 (which is actually not an insignificant thing), etc. It is baffling how people can compare an apple to an orange and claim one is objectively better in every situation.