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 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Orks and Necrons shrug off any number of small holes in their bodies, so the only way to guarantee a kill is to eviscerate them.


Yep, and it turns out swords, axes and maces are very good at that. You could just use a bigger gun, but then you will run out of ammo, and then be forced to use it as a club.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Orks and Necrons shrug off any number of small holes in their bodies, so the only way to guarantee a kill is to eviscerate them.


Yep, and it turns out swords, axes and maces are very good at that. You could just use a bigger gun, but then you will run out of ammo, and then be forced to use it as a club.


Plenty of ranged weapons in the setting are capable of causing equal or greater tissue damage than say a chainsword.

The example of terminators against genestealers makes enough sense but that's in contrast with the likes of guardsmen officers and eldar walking around swinging swords.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Because when you are faced with enemies that are hard to kill (necrons), enemies that can warp in and out of reality (demons), and enemies who greatly outnumber you (orks and tyranids, the former of which the IoM commonly face), it's nice to be trained in the way of the pointy stick for when you inevitably run out of ammunition.


In close combat they still outnumber you and they are still tough. The only difference is that now they can actualy hit back. Engaging in close combat against creatures which are basicaly engineered to do so is foolish and the wise IG sarge will leave the chainsword at home and rather carries a few aditional belts for is squad support mg
   
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KingDeath wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Because when you are faced with enemies that are hard to kill (necrons), enemies that can warp in and out of reality (demons), and enemies who greatly outnumber you (orks and tyranids, the former of which the IoM commonly face), it's nice to be trained in the way of the pointy stick for when you inevitably run out of ammunition.


In close combat they still outnumber you and they are still tough. The only difference is that now they can actualy hit back. Engaging in close combat against creatures which are basicaly engineered to do so is foolish and the wise IG sarge will leave the chainsword at home and rather carries a few aditional belts for is squad support mg

Orks can loose the upper part of their head and quadrants of their chest. Necrons can have a ruptured chest, a missing head, a missing abdomen, and they'll still keep attacking.
Bigger guns or more ammo wont do much against a necron, but they are very slow and not that physically strong. Why not take advantage of that?

 
   
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 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
KingDeath wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Because when you are faced with enemies that are hard to kill (necrons), enemies that can warp in and out of reality (demons), and enemies who greatly outnumber you (orks and tyranids, the former of which the IoM commonly face), it's nice to be trained in the way of the pointy stick for when you inevitably run out of ammunition.


In close combat they still outnumber you and they are still tough. The only difference is that now they can actualy hit back. Engaging in close combat against creatures which are basicaly engineered to do so is foolish and the wise IG sarge will leave the chainsword at home and rather carries a few aditional belts for is squad support mg

Orks can loose the upper part of their head and quadrants of their chest. Necrons can have a ruptured chest, a missing head, a missing abdomen, and they'll still keep attacking.
Bigger guns or more ammo wont do much against a necron, but they are very slow and not that physically strong. Why not take advantage of that?


Take advantage how? Wading through massed fire from arguably the deadliest weaponry *in the galaxy*, somehow surviving to get close enough to knock down a few Necrons before they overwhelm you? If we accept that conventional ranged weapons in the setting are sometimes not-quite-effective against Necrons, then it follows that any melee weapon short of a power weapon isn't going to fare well in the hands of anything less than a space marine.

I feel like against Necrons, use of mobile and relatively hardy combatants(space marines w/ jump packs) could work, but I would imagine any other unit type would be flayed from afar or otherwise cut off, out-flanked, and *then* disintegrated alive.

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The solution to durable opponents isn't to bring a sword (which won't cause more damage than a bolter anyway), it's to bring more artillery and nuclear weapons.

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 Vaerros wrote:
 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
KingDeath wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Because when you are faced with enemies that are hard to kill (necrons), enemies that can warp in and out of reality (demons), and enemies who greatly outnumber you (orks and tyranids, the former of which the IoM commonly face), it's nice to be trained in the way of the pointy stick for when you inevitably run out of ammunition.


In close combat they still outnumber you and they are still tough. The only difference is that now they can actualy hit back. Engaging in close combat against creatures which are basicaly engineered to do so is foolish and the wise IG sarge will leave the chainsword at home and rather carries a few aditional belts for is squad support mg

Orks can loose the upper part of their head and quadrants of their chest. Necrons can have a ruptured chest, a missing head, a missing abdomen, and they'll still keep attacking.
Bigger guns or more ammo wont do much against a necron, but they are very slow and not that physically strong. Why not take advantage of that?


Take advantage how? Wading through massed fire from arguably the deadliest weaponry *in the galaxy*, somehow surviving to get close enough to knock down a few Necrons before they overwhelm you? If we accept that conventional ranged weapons in the setting are sometimes not-quite-effective against Necrons, then it follows that any melee weapon short of a power weapon isn't going to fare well in the hands of anything less than a space marine.

I feel like against Necrons, use of mobile and relatively hardy combatants(space marines w/ jump packs) could work, but I would imagine any other unit type would be flayed from afar or otherwise cut off, out-flanked, and *then* disintegrated alive.

That's one man killing 3 necrons before going down and we at the max of their current numbers still outnumber them more than 100 to 1.
They are also pretty slow to aim. They rely a lot on people being petrified of them.
Pretty big win, without a doubt.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/07 01:23:13


 
   
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 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
That's one man killing 3 Necrons before going down and we at the max of their current numbers still outnumber them more than 100 to 1.

I take it you're referring to guardsmen, given that ratio.

First of all, I meant exactly what I said by 'knock down' -- an unaugmented human lacking a power weapon just isn't going to be able to take out even a basic Necron warrior quickly enough to make fighting them at close range anywhere near feasible at scale.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
They are also pretty slow to aim. They rely a lot on people being petrified of them.


No, they rely on exceedingly dangerous weaponry, disturbingly survivable warriors, and physics-defying technological marvels. I'll accept Necron warriors aren't particularly deft, but they're certainly quick enough to slaughter normal humans in flak armor running up to bang their bayonets and ceremonial sabers against their metal bodies.

And that's without mentioning wraiths, flayed ones, and other units that would stop an assault like that cold.




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From marines? Naw flayed ones are chumps to Death Company. You do know every imperium knife is at the very least mono molecular edged right? It would penetrate with repeated hits pretty easily. Power swords would go it through like a superheated knife through butter. Power weapons are rarely not overkill.
If every man and their granddad became a marine (happened in the crusades, seriously look up how easy it was to get accepted, and the surgery isn't demanding at all) the necrons would no longer pose a threat. Nor would anything else.....and we wouldn't have a story.......but whatever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/07 02:42:05


 
   
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 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
If every man and their granddad became a marine (happened in the crusades, seriously look up how easy it was to get accepted, and the surgery isn't demanding at all) the necrons would no longer pose a threat. Nor would anything else.....and we wouldn't have a story.......but whatever.


At least until the Necrons deployed their version of tactical nuclear weapons, at which point the only difference between a guardsman and a marine is that the dead marine cost more.

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 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

From marines? Naw flayed ones are chumps to Death Company. You do know every imperium knife is at the very least mono molecular edged right? It would penetrate with repeated hits pretty easily. Power swords would go it through like a superheated knife through butter. Power weapons are rarely not overkill.
If every man and their granddad became a marine (happened in the crusades, seriously look up how easy it was to get accepted, and the surgery isn't demanding at all) the necrons would no longer pose a threat. Nor would anything else.....and we wouldn't have a story.......but whatever.


Even during the great crusade only the most capable and healthy warriors became space marines. The selection process and the surgery are demanding as the death of most of Russ's older jarls shows (think it was mentioned in Wolf at the Door).
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
The solution to durable opponents isn't to bring a sword (which won't cause more damage than a bolter anyway), it's to bring more artillery and nuclear weapons.
Why anyone would even bother fighting with sticks and stones when you got weapons like these is beyond me. Though this is WarHammer 40k, so I guess I could let it pass …

 amanita wrote:
So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
 
   
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Dropping a nuke on the Necrons leaves you with nothing but radioactive killer robots.

Necrodermis gives not one single feth about your radiation.

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 Psienesis wrote:
Dropping a nuke on the Necrons leaves you with nothing but radioactive killer robots.

Necrodermis gives not one single feth about your radiation.
You… you do know now what happens when an atomic weapon is detonated right? Everything that isn’t turn asunder by the massive shockwave of the blast is instead turned into dust, or in the case of Necrons, just molten slag.

 amanita wrote:
So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
 
   
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 Psienesis wrote:
Dropping a nuke on the Necrons leaves you with nothing but radioactive killer robots.

Necrodermis gives not one single feth about your radiation.
... Sometimes I wonder if the stuff some of you guys post is serious, lol.




Do you even Hiroshima bro?

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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 Redcruisair wrote:
You… you do know now what happens when an atomic weapon is detonated right? Everything that isn’t turn asunder by the massive shockwave of the blast is instead turned into dust, or in the case of Necrons, just molten slag.


And then they'd proceed to get back up.
   
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 Void__Dragon wrote:
And then they'd proceed to get back up.
Not immediately.

They would have to spend time reconstructing themselves first, and would likely need additional materials due to the heat vaporizing some of their mass.

Or, to put it clearer, they'd teleport back the necrodermis slag and repair it, THEN send it back in to combat.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/07 19:15:54


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Ya know people wonder how guardsmen would even bother with melee against necrons and it just makes me remember the movie Battle Los Angeles. Remember in the final battle scene when the air force chick rams a bayonet into a xeno and just pulls the trigger? That's how I always imagined guardsmen doing most of their melee combat.

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 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Redcruisair wrote:
You… you do know now what happens when an atomic weapon is detonated right? Everything that isn’t turn asunder by the massive shockwave of the blast is instead turned into dust, or in the case of Necrons, just molten slag.


And then they'd proceed to get back up.
Your point being? Nuking the Crons would sill be the more cost efficient way of combating them.

 amanita wrote:
So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
 
   
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One reason is because in the 41st millennium, Armor tech>Ranged tech.

This has always been a paradigm in human history. When ranged weapons are superior to armor, nobody wears armor and the emphasis is on ranged weapons. When armor is superior to ranged, we swing to where melee is the preferred form.

I predict we will have another swing back towards melee combat sometime in the next century or so. As body armor becomes more effective at stopping bullets, we'll have the first suits of power armor. Which will require nothing short of anti-tank weapons or very high powered rounds to penetrate. But you can still come up an stick a knife in the joints. This may result in melee weapons besides trench knives being issued. Even if its just a bigger knife and more emphasis on melee techniques beyond the current "last resort" stance on the subject.


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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
Dropping a nuke on the Necrons leaves you with nothing but radioactive killer robots.

Necrodermis gives not one single feth about your radiation.
... Sometimes I wonder if the stuff some of you guys post is serious, lol.




Do you even Hiroshima bro?


look at this picture of ground zero at Hiroshima. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hiroshima_aftermath.jpg You will notice that Concrete buildings are still standing and look pretty well intact. Concrete. a material invented by the Romans over 2000 years ago.

Necrodermis is super space robot metal. Made by a race who has utter mastery of the physical universe that some can even travel through time. they put their freakin souls into metal bodies that repair themselves.

So aside from the heat at the actual point of detonation, I doubt a nuke would have any other ill effects. Yes, I'll give the race with mastery over the physical universe some credit to being smarter than we are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/07 23:16:30


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 Grey Templar wrote:
I predict we will have another swing back towards melee combat sometime in the next century or so. As body armor becomes more effective at stopping bullets, we'll have the first suits of power armor. Which will require nothing short of anti-tank weapons or very high powered rounds to penetrate.
Real life “power armour” is noisy, clunky, expensive and damn impractical to wear in a warzone. The idea of using such armour in, say, very limited numbers for an elite force, would still be bank-brakeingly expensive and pointless.

 amanita wrote:
So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
 
   
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Maybe at first, but it depends on the specifics.

Weapons and body armor in our modern world are really overinflated as to their price because of the way defense contracts work. If the market for weapons was truly a free market the expenses would be way down.

And you say "is" like we already have power armor. We don't to my knowledge. And who's to say it will be noisy, clunky, and impractical. If we had Space Marine PA we'd use it in a heartbeat.

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Necrodermis is super space robot metal.
It's also METAL, not concrete. Concrete is very, very good at absorbing heat, and it is extremely difficult to melt. Metal is very good at conducting it, and it is quite easy to melt.

Lasguns are capable of tearing apart necrodermis. A nuke delivers far, FAR more energy than a lasgun.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/07 23:58:25


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 Grey Templar wrote:
And you say "is" like we already have power armor. We don't to my knowledge. And who's to say it will be noisy, clunky, and impractical.
Power armour, or powered exoskeleton as it is more commonly know as, is a real life thing. Try google it.


 Grey Templar wrote:
If we had Space Marine PA we'd use it in a heartbeat.
Yes, we would use them if we had them, and no, we won’t ever be able to make anything that complex as 40k power armor.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Weapons and body armor in our modern world are really overinflated as to their price because of the way defense contracts work. If the market for weapons was truly a free market the expenses would be way down.
PA has nothing to do with the weapon market.

 amanita wrote:
So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
 
   
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Grey Templar wrote:
look at this picture of ground zero at Hiroshima. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hiroshima_aftermath.jpg You will notice that Concrete buildings are still standing and look pretty well intact. Concrete. a material invented by the Romans over 2000 years ago.

Necrodermis is super space robot metal. Made by a race who has utter mastery of the physical universe that some can even travel through time. they put their freakin souls into metal bodies that repair themselves.

So aside from the heat at the actual point of detonation, I doubt a nuke would have any other ill effects. Yes, I'll give the race with mastery over the physical universe some credit to being smarter than we are.

The thing is, how many buildings are missing? How close is that site to ground zero? Etc. We don't really know what caused some building to be flattened, and others to survive. Perhaps some of the standing structures were sheltered by other structures in front of them that deflected the blast around the building behind it and absorbed some of it. Concrete is also fairly good at absorbing and resisting heat stresses. Maybe the pictures are from areas further out from ground zero. How many doors, or windows are left? Just about zero.

Remember, Necrons are still anthropomorphic. Which means they are built around joints. Joints are typically weak points in any structure. When you attempt to damage a solid external door, you don't shoot a hole in the middle of it. You attempt to destroy the hinges, or the latching mechanism, and then dislodge the door. So yeah, the Necrodermis might survive. But of course, then you have a bunch of disassembled Necron pieces lying around that were ripped apart by the force of the blast.

Nothing's a sure thing, but if boltguns and lasguns can disable Necrons, the force and heat of a nuclear blast will easily destroy them.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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Most of the buildings in any Japanese city at the time were wooden. and those are the buildings that aren't there anymore.

That picture was taken at more or less ground zero from what I understand. A location where a building protecting another would be more or less negligible as far as damage was concerned(because the bomb detonated in the air roughly 600 meters above the ground)


I don't argue that the direct blast wouldn't cause harm, but anything other than a direct blast would accomplish nothing. So maybe a hundred meters of obliterated necrons and another hundred or so of necrons that have been tossed around a bit(missing a few limbs), but anything beyond that wouldn't be adversely effected by the blast itself. Debris is another issue entirely of course.

It be nowhere near as devastating as it would be on any sort of living army. Not even half as devastating.

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I agree they're tough.

The one guy was just suggesting there'd be a bunch of glowing robots, and that's all. It's kinda silly, because it assumes that the destructive properties of nuclear weapons are based on radiation, and not on heat and kinetic energy. Radiation is just a side effect.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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Also, the Hiroshima bomb is tiny compared to modern nuclear weapons. Little Boy was a Fission bomb and produced a blast of 16 kilotons.

The very first Fusion bomb produced a blast equivalent to around 10 megatons. That's a bit under a thousand times more powerful than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

Now consider the largest Fusion bomb ever detonated on Earth, Tsar Bomba. This bomb produced a yield of 50 Megatons, so 5 thousand times more powerful than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. This bomb produced a fireball 3.5km in radius. It is estimated that if dropped on a city, it would cause complete destruction over a 35km radius.

Now imagine a future where nuclear testing was not banned, where you had entire planets on which to test your bombs. How big could one get?

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 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Redcruisair wrote:
You… you do know now what happens when an atomic weapon is detonated right? Everything that isn’t turn asunder by the massive shockwave of the blast is instead turned into dust, or in the case of Necrons, just molten slag.


And then they'd proceed to get back up.


It's very hard to "get back up" when you've been vaporized entirely. And if Necrons are just shrugging off nukes and getting back up what exactly do you think you're going to do to them with a chainsword?

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