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The surface area is Mono-molecular. Which does give a ball park estimate of what the surface area would be. I think his measurement(although he was lacking units) was fairly realistic for what you could achieve.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The surface area is Mono-molecular. Which does give a ball park estimate of what the surface area would be. I think his measurement(although he was lacking units) was fairly realistic for what you could achieve.

Except that "mono-molecular" doesn't tell us very much since the difference in thickness between different atoms/molecules results in an orders of magnitude difference in the final result. And besides that it's a nonsense concept, a true mono-molecular edge would crumple immediately as soon as you hit something with it and leave you with an edge that might be very sharp but is far short of mono-molecular.

Like I said, close combat is visceral. And Rogue Trader was a heavily converted warhammer Fantasy ruleset, which they have kept as a format all the way to modern editions.

If the weapon is mono molecular, why doesn't it cut through itself or the sheath and fall to the ground?.

Cheers

Andrew

Same reason why you can run your finger down a razor sharp blade and not cut yourself if you are careful.

Just because its as sharp as a thing could possibly be doesn't mean the force of gravity is enough to let it cut through its sheath.

You people using "logic", "science" or "reason" are all wrong.

The reason melee combat is so popular in 40k is because it started off as a ctrl+c, ctrl+v of fantasy without the block movement and never shook it off.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Same reason why you can run your finger down a razor sharp blade and not cut yourself if you are careful.

Just because its as sharp as a thing could possibly be doesn't mean the force of gravity is enough to let it cut through its sheath.

But we're not talking razor sharp are we, we're talking monomolecular, something so sharp it's supposed to be able to cut through atomic bonds......

Also as soon as there is pressure then you'll cut yourself no matter how careful you are.

Cheers

Andrew

 xole wrote:
You people using "logic", "science" or "reason" are all wrong.

The reason melee combat is so popular in 40k is because it started off as a ctrl+c, ctrl+v of fantasy without the block movement and never shook it off.

That too. Space Marines are pretty much futuristic knights, with a bit of the Sardaukar thrown in for good measure. Speaking of Dune, that series also has a heavy emphasis on melee combat.

tgjensen wrote:

haha

Has anyone read the Tau forgeworld book? There was very little close combat in it, except for the battle at the water station.

There's a lot of talk about nukes and such, which might be valid if we are discussing imperium vs imperium.

We are dealing with wraithbone constructs, warp generators, orks, daemons, and any manner of other stuff that really can't be comprehended.

When you fire a nuke what stops a weirdboy from preventing its detonation and putting it in a deathcopter to see if it goes faster?

What stops a farseer from recognizing the danger and simply not being where the nuke was launched?

What stops the nuke from causing some much destruction instantly that it tears a whole in real space and suddenly grandfather Nurgle send minions through to enjoy the rotting skin and decay from the destruction?

Space marines survived Istvaan, our concepts of warfare just don't apply.

Sorry for the delayed answer, Maniac, I've been busy elsewhere. Here I go!

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
I would doubt it. Much of human history has been a perpetual state of warfare in some way, shape, or form. The Pax Romana was still a period of wars along the Roman frontiers, and the Dark and Middle Ages saw lots of conflict across the globe. Warfare adapted and advanced continuously, not regressed.

It is a popular misconception that the world went completely backwards in the 'Dark Ages'. Much was lost, but in other ways much also moved forward. Metal forging leapt forward, ship building, even construction concepts jumped ahead in various ways (crop rotation cycles changed and became more advanced, understanding of forms and architecture moved forward, etc). There was simply a lack of a firm centralizing power to allow for paved roads and thousand mile long aqueducts.

The Normans advanced cavalry warfare, fighting dicipline, the crossbow, siege weapons, and other methods of war that would be like going from a biplane to a fighter jet.

I have not read WWZ, but it wouldn't require tremendously backward thinking. Fuel Air bombs would be brilliant. Flash fry a square mile of zombies making for total and complete incineration (as in nothing but ashes left). Cluster muntions, explosive rounds, etc. Plenty of 'high tech' would work extremely well at fighting zombies without massive regression. Tactics would change, sure, but going completely primitive wouldn't be necessary.

I know, I own a Degree in History I'm spezialized in Contemporary History, not Medieval, but, anyway, I'm aware of how not dark the Dark Ages were. "Dark Age" is actually an English concept seldom used in Mediterranean historiography. After all and as you surely know, there was plenty of people South of the old limes keeping cities (usually smaller, less abundant and shabbier than 1st to 3rd Century ones, but still cities- and quite decent centralized (ing) powers doing their thing. The Omeyan Caliphate and it's succesors, nonetheless, here at the Iberian Peninsula from the 8th Century onwards.
Still, you have a point. Things don't just go "back", although they can seem to. For example, and following your example, massed, ranked, highly disciplined, trained and equiped infantry ceased to rule the battlefields at the end of the Roman Empire. It didn't seriously return until the end of the 15th Century. Not in the form of heavy armoured legions, but as tercios and similar formations. What I mean is that military concepts regarded obsolete by social/economic/tactical/strategic/whatever changes can be recycled when these conditions change again. For some reasons -not all of them completely convincing, I admit- the relationship between firepower and resistance to it is very balanced in the 41st Millenium. Somehow, as it was between the 16th and 19th Centuries. As a consecuence, tactics involve shooting and hand to hand fighting, as shooting is sometimes not enough to achieve victory (don't forget that in this grimdark enviroment many foes don't stop fighting until they are completely dead, they don't get demoralized, surrender or flee often. And they don't die as easily as humans). Probably, people (or cyborgs) from the Dark Age of Technology would laugh at the idea of Assault Marines just as French knights would laugh at the idea of blocks of pike wearing nobodies.

I would also like to mark the diference between being involved at some kind of war and being involved in total war. As you point, making war has been the way to go for many powers during History. However, being as involved as, to use a classic example, WW2 Soviet Union, is quite unsusual. In the first place, because all posible resources are movilized for the war. Secondly, because a 20th Century class of State is required to do it. For example, warmongering 1st Century Rome had about 30 legions. Including all kind of auxiliaries and paramilitary forces, the Empire had an hilariously low percenteage of it's population soldiering around. They didn't need more and couldn't afford more. Even if nominally at war, the core of civil society was basically doing business as usual. On the contrast, maybe 10% of the Soviet population at the peak of WW2 was dressing a uniform. The rest were producing bullets and crops to sustain that 10% and, with luck, themselves. There was few room for any but the most basic innovation. Moreover, obsolete or crazy tactics had to be used. For example, they lacked a decent APC, even if they knew how useful a decent APC was. But building APCs would interfere with building tanks. So, Ivan had to tank-ride to the enemy and die in droves because bodies were already there and APCs were not! Noticeably, first thing in the morning post-war Soviet Union did was to develop decent APCs.
The Imperium is a hyping caricature of this total war/no room for R & D situation. As a result, the Guard doesn't get decent personal body armour and decent dakka and has to go with absolutely obsolete lasguns that require massing tactics to work. Space Marines can't become true Spaceship Troopers -one man armies- and have to group and profit from their power armours by getting close to the enemy and chopping it apart. And so on.

Regarding WWZ, let me just seriously encourage the reading. It's very worth it. Most intelligent zombie-fiction I've read/watched ever.

Cheers!
Roberkhan

 AndrewC wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Same reason why you can run your finger down a razor sharp blade and not cut yourself if you are careful.

Just because its as sharp as a thing could possibly be doesn't mean the force of gravity is enough to let it cut through its sheath.

But we're not talking razor sharp are we, we're talking monomolecular, something so sharp it's supposed to be able to cut through atomic bonds......

Also as soon as there is pressure then you'll cut yourself no matter how careful you are.

Cheers

Andrew

A mono-molecular edge still wouldn't be able to sever atomic bonds. You're talking about nuclear fission there.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Same reason why you can run your finger down a razor sharp blade and not cut yourself if you are careful.

Just because its as sharp as a thing could possibly be doesn't mean the force of gravity is enough to let it cut through its sheath.

But we're not talking razor sharp are we, we're talking monomolecular, something so sharp it's supposed to be able to cut through atomic bonds......

Also as soon as there is pressure then you'll cut yourself no matter how careful you are.

Cheers

Andrew

A mono-molecular edge still wouldn't be able to sever atomic bonds. You're talking about nuclear fission there.

Well, it would be fission if it split an actual nuclei. Severing bonds between atoms in molecules is a completely different process. Still, in order to split that molecule you would either have to initiate a chemical reaction, in which case you end up with a different molecule on your blade, or swing with enough force that you could overcome the resistant force of electromagnetism which keeps atoms/molecules apart. Which is impossible as the force required increases exponentially the closer the atoms get to each other.

If it were to split an atom it would have to be a mono-neutron edge. Which is impossible and would result in a blade so dense no-one would have the strength to lift it, let alone swing it.

 Peregrine wrote:
Sure. But 300m would be 12.5 feet at true 28mm scale. That's significantly longer range than a tank's main gun in 40k rules-wise. Which just demonstrates what I said earlier: melee only works in the tabletop game because weapon ranges and movement speed are not to scale.

Sure, but someone like Usain Bolt or Michael Johnson can clear 300 meters in about 30 seconds. I would imagine Space Marines, Eldar, Hormagaunts, etc. can clear that in half the time if not faster.

I'm sure someone has already said this, but the reason melee combat is no longer important now is that most of our long range weapons can go through any armor regardless of how strong it is. Hence why melee isn't important, cause you'll be dead long before you reach the enemy with your swords.

This isn't the case in the grimdark future. While most armor does crumple to long range ammunition, MCs, Power armor, and especially Terminator armor is strong enough to withstand most anything the enemy throws at them, hence why assault is necessary again.

Logistics


Seriously no matter how efficient the power source of a las rifle is, it still runs out eventually, knives don't suffer from ammo problems.

On a more serious note, considering the level of bureaucracy in the Imperium for example, every spent bolt casing probably needs to be accounted for interstellar war doesn't run itself you know.

danp164 wrote:
Logistics


Seriously no matter how efficient the power source of a las rifle is, it still runs out eventually, knives don't suffer from ammo problems.

Yes they do.

Knives wear with use, and eventually dull and break. This requires logistics to repair/replace.

Granted it's not the same logistics as a gun. But don't act like it's nonexistent.

 Melissia wrote:

danp164 wrote:
Logistics


Seriously no matter how efficient the power source of a las rifle is, it still runs out eventually, knives don't suffer from ammo problems.

Yes they do.

Knives wear with use, and eventually dull and break. This requires logistics to repair/replace.

Granted it's not the same logistics as a gun. But don't act like it's nonexistent.

The Guardsmen might outlive the las pack, the Guardsmen is unlikely to outlive the knife, besides should the knife fail you can assume he picked up a suitably sharp and stabby looking rock.

There's another point, as a general rule melee weapons require little in the way of special training or useful instructions such as "Pointy bit toward Enemy"

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I'm sure someone has already said this, but the reason melee combat is no longer important now is that most of our long range weapons can go through any armor regardless of how strong it is. Hence why melee isn't important, cause you'll be dead long before you reach the enemy with your swords.

This isn't the case in the grimdark future. While most armor does crumple to long range ammunition, MCs, Power armor, and especially Terminator armor is strong enough to withstand most anything the enemy throws at them, hence why assault is necessary again.

The same problems apply to close combat. Of course, 40k manages to somewhat bypass that problem with powerswords and the like but as long as the same kind of armour penetration can be achieved with ranged weapons (plasma, melta, missile launchers, lascannons and the like or even autocannons and heavy bolters, both of wich can be a threat even to fully armoured space marines ) it is more efficient to kill your enemy at range.

danp164 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

danp164 wrote:
Logistics


Seriously no matter how efficient the power source of a las rifle is, it still runs out eventually, knives don't suffer from ammo problems.

Yes they do.

Knives wear with use, and eventually dull and break. This requires logistics to repair/replace.

Granted it's not the same logistics as a gun. But don't act like it's nonexistent.

The Guardsmen might outlive the las pack, the Guardsmen is unlikely to outlive the knife, besides should the knife fail you can assume he picked up a suitably sharp and stabby looking rock.

There's another point, as a general rule melee weapons require little in the way of special training or useful instructions such as "Pointy bit toward Enemy"

A competent commander would surely opt to not engage an enemy if all his men are left with only crooked knifes and pointy rocks to fight with. Waging war against aliens with such meager weapons is just too stupid of an idea even by the imperium’s standards.

Also, the laspack might empty, but it can be easily refilled by using a standard power socket available in any imperial guard building or vehicle.

 Melissia wrote:
Also, the laspack might empty, but it can be easily refilled by using a standard power socket available in any imperial guard building or vehicle.

True, but that takes time, and you have to get it to the power station first. Knives don't quite have that problem.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:

danp164 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

danp164 wrote:
Logistics


Seriously no matter how efficient the power source of a las rifle is, it still runs out eventually, knives don't suffer from ammo problems.

Yes they do.

Knives wear with use, and eventually dull and break. This requires logistics to repair/replace.

Granted it's not the same logistics as a gun. But don't act like it's nonexistent.

The Guardsmen might outlive the las pack, the Guardsmen is unlikely to outlive the knife, besides should the knife fail you can assume he picked up a suitably sharp and stabby looking rock.

There's another point, as a general rule melee weapons require little in the way of special training or useful instructions such as "Pointy bit toward Enemy"

A competent commander would surely opt to not engage an enemy if all his men are left with only crooked knifes and pointy rocks to fight with. Waging war against aliens with such meager weapons is just too stupid of an idea even by the imperium’s standards.

A competent commander may not always have the luxury of falling back and resupplying.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also, the laspack might empty, but it can be easily refilled by using a standard power socket available in any imperial guard building or vehicle.

True, but that takes time, and you have to get it to the power station first. Knives don't quite have that problem.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:

danp164 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

danp164 wrote:
Logistics


Seriously no matter how efficient the power source of a las rifle is, it still runs out eventually, knives don't suffer from ammo problems.

Yes they do.

Knives wear with use, and eventually dull and break. This requires logistics to repair/replace.

Granted it's not the same logistics as a gun. But don't act like it's nonexistent.

The Guardsmen might outlive the las pack, the Guardsmen is unlikely to outlive the knife, besides should the knife fail you can assume he picked up a suitably sharp and stabby looking rock.

There's another point, as a general rule melee weapons require little in the way of special training or useful instructions such as "Pointy bit toward Enemy"

A competent commander would surely opt to not engage an enemy if all his men are left with only crooked knifes and pointy rocks to fight with. Waging war against aliens with such meager weapons is just too stupid of an idea even by the imperium’s standards.

A competent commander may not always have the luxury of falling back and resupplying.

Then he has already lost the battle.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also, the laspack might empty, but it can be easily refilled by using a standard power socket available in any imperial guard building or vehicle.

True, but that takes time, and you have to get it to the power station first. Knives don't quite have that problem.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:

danp164 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

danp164 wrote:
Logistics


Seriously no matter how efficient the power source of a las rifle is, it still runs out eventually, knives don't suffer from ammo problems.

Yes they do.

Knives wear with use, and eventually dull and break. This requires logistics to repair/replace.

Granted it's not the same logistics as a gun. But don't act like it's nonexistent.

The Guardsmen might outlive the las pack, the Guardsmen is unlikely to outlive the knife, besides should the knife fail you can assume he picked up a suitably sharp and stabby looking rock.

There's another point, as a general rule melee weapons require little in the way of special training or useful instructions such as "Pointy bit toward Enemy"

A competent commander would surely opt to not engage an enemy if all his men are left with only crooked knifes and pointy rocks to fight with. Waging war against aliens with such meager weapons is just too stupid of an idea even by the imperium’s standards.

A competent commander may not always have the luxury of falling back and resupplying.

Then he has already lost the battle.

Not necessarily. Reinforcements may arrive, or they can surroundings as a weapon.

Even if he has lost, is he to order his men to lie down and await death? The IoM doesn't quite think that way. If death is certain, they will use everything to their disposal to kill as much of the enemy as possible, for the Emperor and all that.

Aparrently the sharpest cutting implements are synthetic diamond scalpels. Curious as to how sharp they are? 3 nanometers or sharper at the edge .
To the unitiated that's pretty darn close to monomolecular. A hydrogen atom IIRC is .1 nanometers. The knives are pretty durable because they don't really have any resistance to deal with when cutting.
You handle it like you would a sharp knife you avoid the edge. A scabbard would have simply need to grip top and bottom of the blade and avoid the edge. Apparently the people here are rather challenged.
Defensive technologies in the 40k world are much and a blade that sharp would shear apart tanks.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Not necessarily. Reinforcements may arrive, or they can surroundings as a weapon.

Even if he has lost, is he to order his men to lie down and await death? The IoM doesn't quite think that way. If death is certain, they will use everything to their disposal to kill as much of the enemy as possible, for the Emperor and all that.

As I said before, if your opponents got guns and you don’t and retreating for resupplying isn’t an option, then you just lost the game buddy. No really, it’s just simple as that. They enemy would kill every last one of your soldiers before they get the chance to stick those blades into their soft bellies.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Not necessarily. Reinforcements may arrive, or they can surroundings as a weapon.

Even if he has lost, is he to order his men to lie down and await death? The IoM doesn't quite think that way. If death is certain, they will use everything to their disposal to kill as much of the enemy as possible, for the Emperor and all that.

As I said before, if your opponents got guns and you don’t and retreating for resupplying isn’t an option, then you just lost the game buddy. No really, it’s just simple as that. They enemy would kill every last one of your soldiers before they get the chance to stick those blades into their soft bellies.

Only if you are stupid enough to charge a gun line

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Not necessarily. Reinforcements may arrive, or they can surroundings as a weapon.

Even if he has lost, is he to order his men to lie down and await death? The IoM doesn't quite think that way. If death is certain, they will use everything to their disposal to kill as much of the enemy as possible, for the Emperor and all that.

As I said before, if your opponents got guns and you don’t and retreating for resupplying isn’t an option, then you just lost the game buddy. No really, it’s just simple as that. They enemy would kill every last one of your soldiers before they get the chance to stick those blades into their soft bellies.

Only if you are stupid enough to charge a gun line

I think he's talking about the people with guns coming to you whilst you sit there with no ammo hoping you can use a knife.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Not necessarily. Reinforcements may arrive, or they can surroundings as a weapon.

Even if he has lost, is he to order his men to lie down and await death? The IoM doesn't quite think that way. If death is certain, they will use everything to their disposal to kill as much of the enemy as possible, for the Emperor and all that.

As I said before, if your opponents got guns and you don’t and retreating for resupplying isn’t an option, then you just lost the game buddy. No really, it’s just simple as that. They enemy would kill every last one of your soldiers before they get the chance to stick those blades into their soft bellies.

Only if you are stupid enough to charge a gun line

I think he's talking about the people with guns coming to you.

Even better. Hide in narrow spaces; guns aren't that effective in close quarters. If they were, it wouldn't be possible to disarm it with your bare hands, like what nearly every experienced martial artist can do.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Not necessarily. Reinforcements may arrive, or they can surroundings as a weapon.

Even if he has lost, is he to order his men to lie down and await death? The IoM doesn't quite think that way. If death is certain, they will use everything to their disposal to kill as much of the enemy as possible, for the Emperor and all that.

As I said before, if your opponents got guns and you don’t and retreating for resupplying isn’t an option, then you just lost the game buddy. No really, it’s just simple as that. They enemy would kill every last one of your soldiers before they get the chance to stick those blades into their soft bellies.

Only if you are stupid enough to charge a gun line

I think he's talking about the people with guns coming to you.

Even better. Hide in narrow spaces; guns aren't that effective in close quarters.

Grenades and flamethrowers are.