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When chaos daemons got a new codex earlier this year, it all got turned on its it head with tactics completely changing. With the new codex I've seen them top/place highly in major tournaments, but these tournaments were at 1850pts and 2000pts. So we know they work well at higher points games, but what about at 1250pts? Their GDs/DPs can get very expense after rewards and Psyker levels.

So what I want to know is; what tactics do you use when playing with/or even against daemons at lower points level games (like 1250pts)? And do you think that chaos daemons are a competitive choice still at lower points games, or do they only work at higher points games?

Yeah, I think so.

As you have less to spend on big gribblies, your opponent has less to spend on stuff to counter them.

Plus, Daemons can horde up very well, so at 1250 you can build a list that puts a lot of boots (hooves?) on the ground.

Or alternatively, just buy two small units of Nurglings and take all the big stuff anyways!

The Daemon lists we have seen winning or doing well are the FMC spam and a dogpile list (40-60 hounds and Khorne Heralds) . The former does not translate as well to 1250, but the latter does.

I expect to see Daemon lists start t move towards a more horde configuration as people catchup on their painting and get more troops down. For my lists, I took an almost 30% hit on my army size - even more if you consider units that used to be good that are now more niche (looking at you fiends, crushers)

Yeah, a lot of units got a lot cheaper when moving from the last codex to the current one. Yesterday I had the codex with me and I'd been scouring the internet for army lists at lower points. After about 2 hours I came to the conclusion that you can make those competitive lists still, but after adding in a GD and your DPs, or all your flesh hounds and heralds. All of your remaining points go into 2 troops. And if your opponent has a list to counter your list, then you'll have no second plan to fall back on.

But that's just my opinion, I want to know what tactics you would adopt at lower points games?

Pretty decent break down of Daemon theory at lower points levels here:

http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2013/07/scaling-flying-circus.html

I actually kind of disagree, and think "Invincible Fateweaver" gets even better at lower points level, as it gets easier to protect the Book Prince sitting back in support....and a few FF barrages can wipe out many low points Armies..

Interesting that blog post, a lot of shooting can be put out by a chaos daemon army at lower point levels. I personally don't run daemonettes because they're easy first blood, as plaguebearers behind an ADL has a 2+ cover save and pink horrors can put out at least 2D6 worth of S5 shots, but that's just my opinion on daemonettes.

Minimanj wrote:
Interesting that blog post, a lot of shooting can be put out by a chaos daemon army at lower point levels. I personally don't run daemonettes because they're easy first blood, as plaguebearers behind an ADL has a 2+ cover save and pink horrors can put out at least 2D6 worth of S5 shots, but that's just my opinion on daemonettes.

Start them in reserve....haha

I LOVE Daemonettes. Yesterday I killed a Tau Big Daddy, Little Sister Squad (Riptide and Shadowsun) with a base unit of Daemonettes. Hell, I even wrote an entire article about how lethal they can be

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/08/02/guest-editorial-a-tool-for-every-task-or-why-you-need-to-know-your-opponents-army-a-battle-vignette/

They just serve a different role from PBs. Mobile Scoring and Surgical Strike. I don't actually think you need back field Troops as Daemons, just drop your portaglyph in your backfield.

Haha yeah you could stick them in reserve and let your FMCs distract when they deep strike in. One tactic I never thought of using with the portalglyph is to place it backfield and let it produce the scoring units for my backfield objective(s). With other armies I always bring another troop to hold backfield objective(s). I also never thought of using the grimoire on them, because you just assume its better to use it on your big guys as they usually are targeted more, thanks for the ideas really helpful.

Below is a link to an army list that I put up in the 40k army list section for a 1250pts chaos daemon army list. It is the best I've came up with so far, go and check it out and see what you think.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/548370.page

Actually, I think a Nurgle list is quite good at 1250. GUO, two DPs, PBs (icons/instrument). That is all you need. With shrouding, defensive grenades, a few greater rewards, only lvl 1 ( you get primaris nurgle or plague wind - both good), you can make a solid list.

As a guard player I must say I can handle the flying circus but I hate the daemonettes. Hordes of daemonettes are scary to deal with as there are so many bodies and even the smallest amount of them are deadly in CC. If anything at a smaller point list I would suggest running a daemonette horde.

Yeah send your FMCs into enemy forces, while they hold them up/destroy most of the army. Deep strike the daemonettes, run to spread them out and then charge with them next turn. On paper they are killing machines; high initiative, high attacks, high weapon skill and rending. I personally always play my daemons very aggressively.

@tankboy145, nurgle is good, but the GUO is just too slow so the daemon princes will be on their own, unless you deep strike the GUO. But again the daemon princes will be on their own at the start of the game. So I personally wouldn't run a list like yours at these sorts of low points. But the list probably works for you, how do you play it at 1250pts, if you don't mind me asking?

guo, 2 pb squads, 2 DPs start DPs on the board in cover out of LoS. Turn two everything can arrive if you have icon/instrument on PBs. that is the core.

You could also be a huge jerk and easily fit in a Horrorstar plus Fateweaver plus whatever at 1250 pts.

Most armies at that points level will have zero answers for that

I don't like fateweaver, I think he's too fragile. I tried the screamer star with fateweaver and the problems I found that was the deathstar could only really target 1 unit per turn, and that when fateweaver falls then you lose the re-roll for grimoire. And yes one failed grimoire means that most of the Deathstar will die that turn.

@felixcat, if the GUO and anything else arrived in turn 2, then the plaguebearers won't be that far up the board. So the GUO deep strikes to benefit from the icon and isn't that far up the board still. Again unless you risk him by deep striking closer to enemy lines. I might be missing something here, then please tell me.

Everything is DSing turn two or three except the DPs because you have icons/imstrument on the PB squads in reserve.

Minimanj wrote:
I don't like fateweaver, I think he's too fragile. I tried the screamer star with fateweaver and the problems I found that was the deathstar could only really target 1 unit per turn, and that when fateweaver falls then you lose the re-roll for grimoire. And yes one failed grimoire means that most of the Deathstar will die that turn.

@felixcat, if the GUO and anything else arrived in turn 2, then the plaguebearers won't be that far up the board. So the GUO deep strikes to benefit from the icon and isn't that far up the board still. Again unless you risk him by deep striking closer to enemy lines. I might be missing something here, then please tell me.

I agree that only being able to kill one unit at a time limits the Horror and Screamerstar (which are different units, the Horror star is a lot cheaper, which is why I recommended it for a lower points game). The Screamerstar is fast enough to hide/get out of range if the Grim fails.

Fateweaver is fragile, but he also flies 24 inches a turn, can leave the board, and can easily hide out of LOS entirely. He also can nuke any unit near him, increasing his ability to stay alive. I ran him at ATC and he never died, he's very survivable if you use him as a scalpel. In fact, I would argue he's a "must take" in a Daemon competitive build, whether you're running Dog Pile, FMC spam, Slaneesh Rush, or the Tzeentch Death Stars. He's that good, I encourage you try him again.

He is literally my entire anti Tau strategy. http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/08/16/guest-editorial-by-anonymou5-fateweaver-versus-the-world-or-a-way-to-fight-tau-a-tournament-vignette/

Great article anonymou5!

One thing, I don’t understand is how does being grounded let you fly 360″? At the start of your move you have to declare whether you are swooping or gliding. If you declare you are swooping you can only make 90″ turns. The same point as the “front” of the base is used for the entire game (page 49).

Example your FMC “front” is pointing north. You get grounded. It’s now your turn at the start of your movement phase you declare you are swooping, your "front" is still pointing north (as you declare swooping at the start of your move) and you are allowed to rotate once up to 90″ left or right, meaning you can go north, west or east but cannot go south. So you are still limited to your normal flying arc of 180" (up to 90" left or right).

Am I missing something?

Okay I'm thinking of running fateweaver, 3 tzeentch DPs all with daemonic flight + warp-forged armour, one with portalglyph, another with the grimoire and the last with a greater gift. All 3 don't have any mastery levels, and troops will be 2 X 10 daemonettes deep striking.

@felixcat, just re-read icons and didn't realise that the
reduced/no scatter ability applied even though the plaguebearers deep struck in on the same turn as the GUO. So I was missing something, so that does work as well then.

 Mushkilla wrote:
Great article anonymou5!

One thing, I don’t understand is how does being grounded let you fly 360″? At the start of your move you have to declare whether you are swooping or gliding. If you declare you are swooping you can only make 90″ turns. The same point as the “front” of the base is used for the entire game (page 49).

Example your FMC “front” is pointing north. You get grounded. It’s now your turn at the start of your movement phase you declare you are swooping, your "front" is still pointing north (as you declare swooping at the start of your move) and you are allowed to rotate once up to 90″ left or right, meaning you can go north, west or east but cannot go south. So you are still limited to your normal flying arc of 180" (up to 90" left or right).

Am I missing something?

Thanks for the feedback, and you're right on the FMC movement/facing. I had been playing it wrong for a long time, and actually only recently noticed it (kind of crazy no one called me out on it at the many tournies I've played FMCs). I was under the impression that because you started your move in glide mode (having been grounded and all), you could then "take off" in any direction. That's not the case by strict RAW (as you enunciated). Which is actually kind of big, because every time you land you need to think about where you want to fly next turn (say after a reconsolidate move).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Minimanj wrote:
Okay I'm thinking of running fateweaver, 3 tzeentch DPs all with daemonic flight + warp-forged armour, one with portalglyph, another with the grimoire and the last with a greater gift. All 3 don't have any mastery levels, and troops will be 2 X 10 daemonettes deep striking.

@felixcat, just re-read icons and didn't realise that the
reduced/no scatter ability applied even though the plaguebearers deep struck in on the same turn as the GUO. So I was missing something, so that does work as well then.

If I was going to go with a Fateweaver circus at 1250, I'd probably use my other HQ slot on a Lash Prince, get some sort of ranged attack in. I'm not sold on 4 MCs at 1250, because they're pretty squishy without powers.

But, honestly, I'd probably go all Slaneesh at that points level. With no powers, you're really going to want that Lash. And if you get the 4+ FNP, just keep it instead of taking Lash

Fateweaver
Keeper of Secrets (two greaters, level 2)

Daemonettes
Daemonettes (allures)

DP of S (greater, exalted, wings, armor)
DP of S (greater, exalted, wings, armor)

anonymou5 wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, and you're right on the FMC movement/facing. I had been playing it wrong for a long time, and actually only recently noticed it (kind of crazy no one called me out on it at the many tournies I've played FMCs). I was under the impression that because you started your move in glide mode (having been grounded and all), you could then "take off" in any direction. That's not the case by strict RAW (as you enunciated). Which is actually kind of big, because every time you land you need to think about where you want to fly next turn (say after a reconsolidate move).

To be honest I thought the same thing too (so you're not alone), it's only recently since I have started to dabble in my daemons again that I had a thorough look at the rules again and noticed it.

It has a pretty big implications like you said and means you really need to think ahead. For example you can't consolidate after charging and destroying a vehicle so you're stuck with whatever facing you had on the charge (bear in mind you can technically charge with your "front" in any direction as facing is irrelevant for normal movement). But it's still something you need to watch out for.

There's going to be lots of DPs moonwalk charging tanks!

Really good point about the direction in which you leave your FMCs in when you put them back into gliding mode next turn, it adds more tactics into it. I didn't actually know that either, I thought your could effectively pivot 360' and them take off again.

Okay then how about this list then

Fateweaver
KOS greater ML3
10 daemonettes
10 daemonettes
DP slaanesh armour wings greater exhalted (portalglyph)
DP slaanesh armour wings greater exhalted (grimoire)

Honestly I think daemons struggle at such a low points level, yes we can field a horde of t3 5++ models but they will struggle as a TAC list, for anti armour we need either GD's princes or soul grinders. Personnaly I do not rate grinders but think at the lower points level these may shine.

MarkyMark wrote:
Honestly I think daemons struggle at such a low points level, yes we can field a horde of t3 5++ models but they will struggle as a TAC list, for anti armour we need either GD's princes or soul grinders. Personnaly I do not rate grinders but think at the lower points level these may shine.

I've actually played a decent number of 1k points games with Fateweaver and a LoC plus some Hounds. It works pretty well...IDK how TAC it is....but what is TAC at 1k?

anonymou5 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Honestly I think daemons struggle at such a low points level, yes we can field a horde of t3 5++ models but they will struggle as a TAC list, for anti armour we need either GD's princes or soul grinders. Personnaly I do not rate grinders but think at the lower points level these may shine.

I've actually played a decent number of 1k points games with Fateweaver and a LoC plus some Hounds. It works pretty well...IDK how TAC it is....but what is TAC at 1k?

Guard sadly! haha.

I dont ever play sub 1500pt games (heck have yet to play a 1500pt game even, at the mo its usually 1750 or 1650 tourny pratice!). I have had a few doubles game recently with 1k but that has been striped down troops focusing on one aspect (tried and test horror star with prince or screamercouncil). I just am very used to building good lists for the higher points levels, which includes resilience and redundancy something you cannot really do at lower levels. Maybe towards the end of the year I will try and get some lower pts value games in.

Yeah when making competitive lists at smaller points levels, you can sometimes find a bit more of a challenge because you're really limited on tactics. With daemons at higher points you can put in plenty of FMCs and some fast elements in, e.g. screamer squad(s) and flesh hounds. But at smaller points you can only really put in either FMCs, or the fast elements. It's the same for other armies as well, necrons for example either AV13 wall, or wraithwing, and at higher points you can do both.

MarkyMark wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Honestly I think daemons struggle at such a low points level, yes we can field a horde of t3 5++ models but they will struggle as a TAC list, for anti armour we need either GD's princes or soul grinders. Personnaly I do not rate grinders but think at the lower points level these may shine.

I've actually played a decent number of 1k points games with Fateweaver and a LoC plus some Hounds. It works pretty well...IDK how TAC it is....but what is TAC at 1k?

Guard sadly! haha.

I dont ever play sub 1500pt games (heck have yet to play a 1500pt game even, at the mo its usually 1750 or 1650 tourny pratice!). I have had a few doubles game recently with 1k but that has been striped down troops focusing on one aspect (tried and test horror star with prince or screamercouncil). I just am very used to building good lists for the higher points levels, which includes resilience and redundancy something you cannot really do at lower levels. Maybe towards the end of the year I will try and get some lower pts value games in.

I'm not big on 1k ish either, but somehow got talked into a series of games at 1K and my LoC/FW/Hounds list has actually beaten a strange mix of opponents. It has nearly zero redundancy, obviously, but it is at least pretty versatile. Hounds for light infantry/disruption, Fateweaver for shooting and buffing (and contesting and tarpitting obviously), and LoC for everything. I feel like the LoC shines at lower points (not that he's bad at higher), because of how many different things he excels at. If only he came with armor!

As I'm only getting back into my daemons now (been playing DE for all of 6th) I have been playing a lot of small point games to work out what works and get a grasp on the core of my army.

Here's my current list:

HQ
Great Unclean One, Greater Reward, Exalted Reward(grimoire), Mastery Level 1 (Plague) - 240

TROOPS
10 Plague Bearers, Plagueridden, Icon, Instrument - 115
10 Plague Bearers, Plagueridden, Icon, Instrument - 115

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon Prince, MoN, Wings, 2 Greater Rewards, Mastery Level 1 (Plague) - 265
Daemon Prince, MoN, Wings, 2 Greater Rewards, Mastery Level 1 (Plague) - 265

Total: 1000 points

The DPs start on the board, everything else is in reserve. The Plague Bearers ensure the GUO comes down turn two and relatively accurately at the same time the princes move up and force saturation.

The grimoire lets my PB move into open ground when trying to get to objectives (if I fail the roll they just say in cover and sit pretty). I also use it when I need a DP to engage something in the open (as I like to keep them hoping from area terrain to area terrain) if the grimoire goes off they can land and risk open ground, if it doesnt they can just keep swooping from terrain to terrain killing things with their AP3 flamers and vector strike or assaulting stuff in cover. Basically shrouded means I'm not to fussed if the grimoire doesn't go off, as the affected unit can just stick to cover.

The GUO makes its way to one of my opponents objectives and just sits there (putting out AP2 large blasts if he rolls it and buffing things with grimoire). This basically means he is denying my opponent an objective and slay the warlord unless he puts considerable effort into removing him.

As my plague bearers deepstrike they tend to be in forward positions meaning my DPs can fly off and then deepstrike next to them with pinpoint accuracy thanks to the icons and use their flamer on anything that happened to be going after the plague bearers

The DPs are minamilist but effective. Shrouded/defensive grenades from MoN means I don't need to invest in hell forged armour saving some points and meaning a 6 on the greater gift table is no longer a dud. Having a 2+ cover save in ruins and a 3+ when jinking or in 5+ terrain (a 2+ when the firing unit has one model within 8") means as long as you are sensible with your positioning getting grounded isn't the end of the world. It also gives you the option to land if need be (to assault, to hide or to contest)! Using your D6 consolidate to get into cover after assault is also pretty handy.

It also means I don't need to depend on biomancy (which sets you back a fare bit for 3ML). The issues I have with biomancy are: it's another random table in a random army, I don't want to have to depend on rolling the right powers and passing a LD9 psychic test for survivability, there's also some overlap with some of the greater gifts (FNP and WND) meaning bad rolls is wasted points, poison also seems to be a hard counter.

One level in the plague discipline is great, the primaries is fantastic and you have a 50% chance of getting an AP2 poison 4+ large blast. These two powers are fantastic on a FMC and great for hunting troops, or softening up models for the assault. The primaris alone turns your DPs into mini helldrakes.

MoN also gives you access to the balesword, with all the big gribblies running around wounding T6 on a 4+ re-rollable with instant death at AP2 is awesome, the poison also let you re-roll those 2+ to wound against T4 or less. But you don't have to take it if there's nothing worth IDing in your opponents army, you can just keep the S8 AP1 lance or two protection gifts.

Not being able to sweeping advance is not the end of the world, in fact it's quite handy! If you are fighting near the board edge units can still run off, if they are below 25% they can't rally, and either way (marines aside) they will be limited to a 3" move next turn and will only be able to snap shot.

All in all it's been a blast to play so far.

Minimanj wrote:
Yeah send your FMCs into enemy forces, while they hold them up/destroy most of the army. Deep strike the daemonettes, run to spread them out and then charge with them next turn. On paper they are killing machines; high initiative, high attacks, high weapon skill and rending. I personally always play my daemons very aggressively.

@tankboy145, nurgle is good, but the GUO is just too slow so the daemon princes will be on their own, unless you deep strike the GUO. But again the daemon princes will be on their own at the start of the game. So I personally wouldn't run a list like yours at these sorts of low points. But the list probably works for you, how do you play it at 1250pts, if you don't mind me asking?

Oh I dont play daemons but I know a guy at my local gaming shop who does play them competitively uses 2-3 big blobs of daemonettes and runs them across the board. You can try to kill them all you want but even the smallest amount that reaches the other side is deadly.

@mushkilla, I'd drop both plagueriddens and one 1 icon in exchange for more rewards, maybe a lesser reward on each of the daemon princes. I just think one icon is enough because you're going to want to be concentrating your forces, and the instruments will ensure all your units will arrive.

@tankboy145, oh right and yeah daemonettes are really deadly, it's only since I started this thread and anonymous5 pointed out some articles, that I realise that it doesn't matter how fragile they are, even 5 of them can kill a MC, or even a tank at that.