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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 14:34:20
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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I played a few games at a local RTT this weekend, and played 2 Tau players. One was Tau/C:SM and the other Tau/Eldar. In both games I tabled the Tau players. These were both good players, but they were just not familiar with how to play against Eldar/Dark Eldar.
I don't play Tau, so while I am familiar with their rulebook I don't understand it to the same degree as Daemons, CSM, C:SM, Eldar, or Dark Eldar. As such, please take these suggestions as such.
Get a Broadside Shas'vre
If your not putting an IC into the broadside squad, take the darn +1 leadership IC in the squad. A leadership of an 8 does not cut it when your getting shot at by 4+ wave serpents per turn. The pinning tests alone will keep your broadsides out of the fight.
If your going to be spending 200+ points on a squad guys, fork out the 10 points for the +1 leadershipFFFF00.
Don't put your drones in front of your Broadsides if fighting Eldar!
Even shield drones. My eldar wave serpents don't care about your 4+ invuln save. All those drones are going to do is cause your broadside unit to take more break/pinning tests.
This weekend I discovered just how easy it is to shoot a broadside unit off the board. This is made even more clear when people stick the broadsides 6" from the table edge, and a warlock has just hit the unit with "Horrify" lowering their LD to a 5.
Riptides Are Not Fearless
Riptides really should be fearless. This weekend I had a seer squad assault 2 riptides and 10 fire warriors (with an ethereal). I put one model on each riptide and the rest of my models on the fire warriors.
The riptides wiffed their attacks, needing 5s to hit and me getting a 75% invulnerable save. I then proceeded to beat the snot out of the fire warriors killing 8 wounds worth of them. Both riptides and the rest of the fire warriors ran and were all swept.
To fix this, you really need a C:SM character in there to give ATSKNF.
What did I just say? You really need ATSKNF
My third round opponent smugly said "Go ahead and assault my broadside squad, they have hit and run" The assaulted them, did 6 wounds to them and swept them off the board.
Hit and Run does not work if your dead.
Oh, and for goodness sake don't let me kill your drones before your broadsides. Your more likely to be making a LD check on a 5 if you do. Keep the drones behind your broadsides so I can't just engage them and have your broadsides not in base to base. This let me kill all the drones before throwing wounds on the 2+ save broadsides!
Sure, that Farseer in your squad guiding your riptides is cool, but being swept off the board can really suck. Skip the Eldar and bring the marines for that purpose. You need to have a plan when your facing screamer stars.
Skyrays can be assaulted
Armor 13 is cool, but a skyray is still chump on the rear armor. If there is over a 40% of it being assaulted, move the darn thing back. I got to chew through some skyrays this weekend that way.
Don't shoot at invulnerable units
If there is a unit in front of you that has a 35/36 save, don't bother shooting at it. This can be screamers, seer councils, etc.... It does not matter what it is, just don't bother shooting it. Your not going to do any good.
When your encountering a deathstar like this, treat it like one. Spread out as much as possible. Don't try to assault it with 2 riptides, or bring your farsight bomb close to it hoping to wipe it out with 18 plasma gun shots.
In both games I had the Tau player try to crunch my deathstar with massive firepower. Unlike Admiral Ackbar, my cruisers could repel firepower of that magnitude. In both cases I beat the snot out of the units and swept them off the board.
Farsight Does Not Have EW
This weekend I had the baron with two 'Empowers' on the squad. This ment that when the baron challanged Farsight, he was STR 8 with a STR 8 hammer of wrath attack. I smacked farsight in the head 5 times with a STR 8 attack.
Want to make a guess at what happened next?
Keep Farsight out of a challenge with an enemy IC with a STR 8 weapon. Its better to decline and hide in the back than risk him.
Don't Turtle Against Eldar
My first opponent kept his farsight squad behind an ADL. That tactic does not work when your opponent has an effective 48" range and does not care about cover. Your better off taking your bomb and trying to run up to LoS blocking cover than sitting behind an ADL.
If your facing something like a screamerStar, for goodness sake don't turtle!!! Spread out as much as possible and force them to kill 1 unit a turn tops.
Hide your Broadsides
In every game I played, I was able to blow the broadsides off the table or significantly reduce their effectiveness before they got a chance to do anything. They just don't have the durability to stand up to that kind of firepower. Putting the drones in front can really work against you by causing break/pinning tests.
As such, I suggest hiding your broadsides. You can stick 4 of them in a bastion, and they can all 4 fire out 2 fire points in the buiding. That would make them invulnerable to the alpha strike from the serpents, and still give you 16 STR 7 shots and 16 STR 5 shots per turn.
Heck, I might even go so far as to say bring a fortress of redemption. The more units you can hide in buildings the better off you are.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 14:56:08
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Hint: just don't play against Eldar/Dark Eldar.
It's stupid and, despite having a massive Eldar and Dark Eldar collection, I hesitate playing them in 6th because you can't have a friendly game if you're playing light Eldar in any combination.
If you're taking the Eldars to an RTT, that's fine. I enjoy competitive 40k. Just know that your local players are going to have less than optimized lists and you're just going to womp them every game.
For instance, hit and run broadsides. That's something fun to do on their initiative 2... It sounds like you brought a tough Eldar/Dark Eldar list to a tournament at your hobby shop, blew two people out of the water, and are applying your experiences to everyone.
I mean, don't get me wrong. Congrats on the wins and it sounds like you did well in the tournament.
However, this whole post is basically stories about how you killed Farsight, Broadsides, Riptides and Skyrays. What about everything else?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 15:05:17
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:For instance, hit and run broadsides. That's something fun to do on their initiative 2... It sounds like you brought a tough Eldar/Dark Eldar list to a tournament at your hobby shop, blew two people out of the water, and are applying your experiences to everyone.
However, this whole post is basically stories about how you killed Farsight, Broadsides, Riptides and Skyrays. What about everything else?
It was not like I went to my local shop and played around with some unskilled new players. This was a RTT hosted by Alex Finnell and Toddy Sibler. One of my opponents was Bill Souza. All 3 of my opponents were highly skilled players and could hold their own in big events.
The purpose of this was not to flaunt how they lost. Indeed, Bill won on secondaries, even though he only killed 2 warlocks and 1 farseer and lost most of his army. It was to explain what they did wrong to help other Tau players from making the same mistakes.
The key takeaways are
* Spread out when your facing a deathstar
* Don't shoot invulnerable units
* Don't always put drones in front of broadsides
* Don't rely upon Hit and Run
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:However, this whole post is basically stories about how you killed Farsight, Broadsides, Riptides and Skyrays. What about everything else?
Just shot it off the board or assaulted it to death Outflanking kroot died to DE warriors and Dire Avengers. Fire warriors got shot up by serpents on turn 3+. There were no real takeways or suggestions I can provide to the Tau players as a whole about those situations so I did not feel the need to illustrate them.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/26 15:12:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 15:10:07
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer
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Great stuff!
One thing though:
labmouse42 wrote:This weekend I had the baron with two 'Empowers' on the squad. This ment that when the baron challanged Farsight, he was STR 8 with a STR 8 hammer of wrath attac
The rules for hammer of wrath specifically state unmodified strength (the only exception to this is the baron's skyboard as it got FAQed). Empower would have had no effect.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/26 15:11:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 15:10:57
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Thanks for the heads up. I'll make sure to have the HoW hit be a STR 6 from now on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 15:40:03
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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Good points, though i think i missed something or that tau player failed to read footnotes. Broadsides cannot take Vectored Retro Thrusters, which give Fleet and Hit and Run. The only way he could have Hit and Run would be if he had a buffmander in there that had it, since it goes to the whole unit (and I3 is a bit better than I2 for HaR lol) and either i missed it or you never said he had a buffmander in there  (and im kinda zoned out since im tired but cant goto bed since im about to get on a plane) Why the hell would people put broadsides that far back? Their biggest issue is range lol even against assaulty armies mine go front-line deployment. Rather have a turn of snapfiring when i retreat rather than a turn of i do nothing because i started in the back. Railsides i hear are getting common against eldar because of the range, but i still wouldnt put them right up the board edge lol thats a mistake with any non-vehicle unit.....period lol.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/26 15:41:05
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 15:47:08
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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He had a buff-mander in the unit. He also had a farseer in the unit so he could bounce out 5/6 of the time.
The problem was I simply killed a bunch of drones, the farseer and did 1 wound on the buff-mander.
As such he was testing at a -6 LD. Even though he could 'hit and run' he never got the chance because he was dead.
On the other side, I agree. Don't put your broadsides on your table edge. One bad leadership test and your out all those points.
That is my point with the drones. If your taking pod drones stick them behind your broadsides. The 2+ save on the broadsides when your getting shot by serpent shields is much better than the drones.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/26 16:13:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 16:16:39
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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With new rules, yes i agree drones should never be in front of broadsides. Heck unless its crisis bombs (in which case the drones are there purely to be annoying models in the way) ALL drones are behind whatever theyre attached to because they lost their armor save that their unit has. Really wish at least the shield drones had it still, 4++ on its own is not that great when its a single model in a tiny unit.
I miss the old days of 2+ drones standing infront of my railsides lol. Goddamn they were hard to remove without an AP2 pi plate or assaulting them lol
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 16:43:05
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Too true. This should have the caveat "supporting fire is not worth your Riptide dying" Multi assaults are the biggest weakness of the Riptide, it's pretty much the only way I ever kill them. (For a long time, the only weapon I ever shot at a Riptide was puppet master, and I had ONLY ever killed them in multi assaults)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/26 17:00:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 16:48:10
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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A lot of that can be fixed if your opponent brought some C:SM to add ATSKNF to their squads. Heck, if you can bring a techmarine in the new codex, it might even be worth it to add that to another squad.
The reason is the ATSKNF means that your not going to be sweeping all 3 squads.
The riptides will be able to get away to rally as the other unit will hold the sweepers at bay.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 17:05:33
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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labmouse42 wrote:A lot of that can be fixed if your opponent brought some C: SM to add ATSKNF to their squads. Heck, if you can bring a techmarine in the new codex, it might even be worth it to add that to another squad.
The reason is the ATSKNF means that your not going to be sweeping all 3 squads.
The riptides will be able to get away to rally as the other unit will hold the sweepers at bay.
Agreed. C: SM add a ton to Tau.
Although the Ethereal can also hand out stubborn. However, in my experience, most Tau players think they are "assault proof" and don't think to hand out Stubborn; when they can take extra shots instead. Which often backfires.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 17:20:43
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator
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Ethereal gives stubborn every turn he's alive within 12 inches as well as 10 leadership to boot. These players should be choosing stubborn over everything else to avoid the devastating sweeps.
I think there is some good advice here as I have been struggling with in you face seer council armies before. My answer is to ally eldar and get d scythes on the council and fire on anything else I can reach in their army. Hoping to get misfortune with a far seer just isn't solid.
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Armies I field - Tau, Dark Angels, Necrons, Blood Angels |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 17:29:11
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Sister Vastly Superior
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My personal mindset is "why on earth would I want stubborn FW" and it does hurt me rather often.
Then again, I don't fall for any of those basics from the OP, so...
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I collect:
Guard - 2k of mostly infantry
DA - 2k of deathwing, 2k of other bits (no vehicles)
Sisters - mostly converted/proxy because I'm waiting for therange to go plastic.
Tau - 2k with no riptides because I can. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 17:59:54
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Ministry wrote:Ethereal gives stubborn every turn he's alive within 12 inches as well as 10 leadership to boot. These players should be choosing stubborn over everything else to avoid the devastating sweeps.
It also can help reduce pinning. This was the first time I ran my serpent/venom list against Tau and did not really understand how bad the leadership of broadsides was. They were very easy to pin.
My opponent through that tripling his shots would do more good and therefore unloaded 56 shots into the seers in both normal shooting and overwatch. All that shooting did not kill a single model.
If I was playing Tau, and saw that deathstar coming, I would move the etheral back and throw up a stubborn bubble any day of the week.
Ministry wrote:I think there is some good advice here as I have been struggling with in you face seer council armies before. My answer is to ally eldar and get d scythes on the council and fire on anything else I can reach in their army. Hoping to get misfortune with a far seer just isn't solid.
What you need to do is have the ability to ensure a heavily resilient target cannot get swept. Instead of going for misfortune, go for fortune and use a riptide to tie up the seer squad all game Witchblades don't ignore armor, so a fortuned riptide could stand the heat all day long.
Even without fortune, each warlock only has 2 attacks. 7 warlocks/farseers are only putting out 14 attacks. They will hit with 9.3 attacks, and wound with 7.7 of them and do 1.29 wounds per turn. Your riptide can take that punishment for a long time!
Sure the farseers might have prescience, but it happens less often than you would think. This is because the eldar player needs that fortune, and can't afford to drop out of the runes of fate table until they get it. Heck, I'll even take 'death mission' over 'guide' as the 2nd power if I've not gotten fortune. Getting that fortune power makes things a lot easier.
If the eldar player does not have the baron in there, he will not be able to hit and run his seers out of the grind.
The trick there is to not allow a multi-assault. That's how I was able to get 2 riptides in one turn. I just used the fire warriors as my target.
(Fortune also allows DTW rerolls, so 55% of the time, misfortune won't work even if you do get the power)
Note : screamerStars are a much bigger problem, and will be more common than jetSeers. I think that's where the question on how to deal with them really comes into play.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 19:05:55
Subject: Re:Tips for Tau Players
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Focused Fire Warrior
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I like this thread a lot. I would add that seeker missiles, marker lights, early warning overrides, and lots of fire warriors and fire blades: ruin Eldar's day. No matter what: take away their cover, then shoot, then win. Its pretty simple. I have played few games against new Eldar and won based upon this reasoning. I looked through their book and saw that they: rely on cover a lot, rely on movement a lot, and most importantly: rely on wave serpents a lot. Wave Serpents can be very scary during the first couple turns but I have found out that seeker missiles and riptides will knock them out. My friend even said that new Tau have too many hard counters against new Eldar and gave up on turn 3 because I blew up his transports and troops. As for farsight and his deathstar, yea he might not be fearless but you have ALL his squad's shots before they can assault you to take out key melee units and hit and run worked very well for me the other day when fighting ravenwing dark angels. As for challenges you have to be smart and know what you are getting into. I accepted a challenge with farsight and ended up crushing his sergeant because I knew he had no instant death weapon capabilities. It seems to me that your Tau friends were not smart with their tactical moves and that they should play more and learn about eldar more.
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FOR THE GREATER F-ING GOOD! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 19:51:10
Subject: Re:Tips for Tau Players
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:I like this thread a lot. I would add that seeker missiles, marker lights, early warning overrides, and lots of fire warriors and fire blades: ruin Eldar's day. No matter what: take away their cover, then shoot, then win. Its pretty simple. I have played few games against new Eldar and won based upon this reasoning. I looked through their book and saw that they: rely on cover a lot, rely on movement a lot, and most importantly: rely on wave serpents a lot. Wave Serpents can be very scary during the first couple turns but I have found out that seeker missiles and riptides will knock them out. My friend even said that new Tau have too many hard counters against new Eldar and gave up on turn 3 because I blew up his transports and troops. As for farsight and his deathstar, yea he might not be fearless but you have ALL his squad's shots before they can assault you to take out key melee units and hit and run worked very well for me the other day when fighting ravenwing dark angels. As for challenges you have to be smart and know what you are getting into. I accepted a challenge with farsight and ended up crushing his sergeant because I knew he had no instant death weapon capabilities. It seems to me that your Tau friends were not smart with their tactical moves and that they should play more and learn about eldar more.
I disagree.... While Eldar's impact on the meta is still forming, and we don't really know who has an edge right now.... Based on what I saw at ATC (obviously a small sample size), Eldar eat Tau's lunch. It's nasty. Here's what the typical Eldar versus Tau game looks like. Turn 1) All non Skyray Markerlights go away while Wave Serpeants dance out of range of everything but Riptides. 2) Riptides shooting without marker support does little to nothing 2-4) Tau Troops vanish 4-6) Eldar Troops start appearing on objectives, and shurikan weapons/D weapons/etc start to poke holes in Riptides.
And really, even though Footdar isn't as common, going with my huge sample size of 1, Recius absolutely spanked the Tau Army that won Alamocon or whatever.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 21:22:25
Subject: Re:Tips for Tau Players
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Murrieta, CA
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anonymou5 wrote: TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:I like this thread a lot. I would add that seeker missiles, marker lights, early warning overrides, and lots of fire warriors and fire blades: ruin Eldar's day. No matter what: take away their cover, then shoot, then win. Its pretty simple. I have played few games against new Eldar and won based upon this reasoning. I looked through their book and saw that they: rely on cover a lot, rely on movement a lot, and most importantly: rely on wave serpents a lot. Wave Serpents can be very scary during the first couple turns but I have found out that seeker missiles and riptides will knock them out. My friend even said that new Tau have too many hard counters against new Eldar and gave up on turn 3 because I blew up his transports and troops. As for farsight and his deathstar, yea he might not be fearless but you have ALL his squad's shots before they can assault you to take out key melee units and hit and run worked very well for me the other day when fighting ravenwing dark angels. As for challenges you have to be smart and know what you are getting into. I accepted a challenge with farsight and ended up crushing his sergeant because I knew he had no instant death weapon capabilities. It seems to me that your Tau friends were not smart with their tactical moves and that they should play more and learn about eldar more.
I disagree.... While Eldar's impact on the meta is still forming, and we don't really know who has an edge right now.... Based on what I saw at ATC (obviously a small sample size), Eldar eat Tau's lunch. It's nasty. Here's what the typical Eldar versus Tau game looks like. Turn 1) All non Skyray Markerlights go away while Wave Serpeants dance out of range of everything but Riptides. 2) Riptides shooting without marker support does little to nothing 2-4) Tau Troops vanish 4-6) Eldar Troops start appearing on objectives, and shurikan weapons/D weapons/etc start to poke holes in Riptides.
And really, even though Footdar isn't as common, going with my huge sample size of 1, Recius absolutely spanked the Tau Army that won Alamocon or whatever.
Only one problem with your summary there. expending your serpent shields on wave serpents when your opponents have skyrays and riptides is asking for disaster. Without serpentshields to protect you from pens, skyrays riptides, ionheads, and railheads will rip open your serpents. Eldar have the ability to mulch pathfinders from accross the baord, but this doesn't mean auto win by any stretch. Personally I run Tau with eldar psychic support (guide+prescience+ other Div/Fate Power). I usually only start running pathfinders in 1750ish points games.
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Space Marines (Anything but BA or GK): 6k
Tau: 3k
-Thaylen |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 21:31:18
Subject: Re:Tips for Tau Players
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Thaylen wrote:anonymou5 wrote: TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:I like this thread a lot. I would add that seeker missiles, marker lights, early warning overrides, and lots of fire warriors and fire blades: ruin Eldar's day. No matter what: take away their cover, then shoot, then win. Its pretty simple. I have played few games against new Eldar and won based upon this reasoning. I looked through their book and saw that they: rely on cover a lot, rely on movement a lot, and most importantly: rely on wave serpents a lot. Wave Serpents can be very scary during the first couple turns but I have found out that seeker missiles and riptides will knock them out. My friend even said that new Tau have too many hard counters against new Eldar and gave up on turn 3 because I blew up his transports and troops. As for farsight and his deathstar, yea he might not be fearless but you have ALL his squad's shots before they can assault you to take out key melee units and hit and run worked very well for me the other day when fighting ravenwing dark angels. As for challenges you have to be smart and know what you are getting into. I accepted a challenge with farsight and ended up crushing his sergeant because I knew he had no instant death weapon capabilities. It seems to me that your Tau friends were not smart with their tactical moves and that they should play more and learn about eldar more.
I disagree.... While Eldar's impact on the meta is still forming, and we don't really know who has an edge right now.... Based on what I saw at ATC (obviously a small sample size), Eldar eat Tau's lunch. It's nasty. Here's what the typical Eldar versus Tau game looks like. Turn 1) All non Skyray Markerlights go away while Wave Serpeants dance out of range of everything but Riptides. 2) Riptides shooting without marker support does little to nothing 2-4) Tau Troops vanish 4-6) Eldar Troops start appearing on objectives, and shurikan weapons/D weapons/etc start to poke holes in Riptides.
And really, even though Footdar isn't as common, going with my huge sample size of 1, Recius absolutely spanked the Tau Army that won Alamocon or whatever.
Only one problem with your summary there. expending your serpent shields on wave serpents when your opponents have skyrays and riptides is asking for disaster. Without serpentshields to protect you from pens, skyrays riptides, ionheads, and railheads will rip open your serpents. Eldar have the ability to mulch pathfinders from accross the baord, but this doesn't mean auto win by any stretch. Personally I run Tau with eldar psychic support (guide+prescience+ other Div/Fate Power). I usually only start running pathfinders in 1750ish points games.
Taudar/Eldau are nasty no doubt.
Just to clarify, I don't play Tau or Eldar. I'm just giving a real quick summary of how some of the games at the ATC went down. At BS3 without marker support, thus often missing, and not bypassing the 4+ cover from the moving WS; I'm not sure how Riptides are tearing them up. Even Railheads at BS4 aren't going to be reliably killing WSs faster than they're killing everything else in the Tau Army. Plus, you're not going to see Ionheads, Railheads and Skyrays in one list. It'll usually be two Skyrays and one squad of Missile Sides. Serpents can dance around Missile Side Range all day, so they're not that big an issue.
Even if we assume 3 Railheads, and 3 Riptides with Ion Accelerator (which I've never seen at a major tourney, either in person or in summaries), that's not going to kill more than one or two Serpents in a turn. 3 Railheads = 2 hits, = 1.75 pens or so = 1 gets through = .5 blow up
3 IA Riptides, harder to calculate because it's blast. Let's assume they kill 1 a turn (which is incredibly generous). So by turn 4 they've killed 6 Serpents, in the mean time half the Tau Army is dead, and jetbikes are about to make their mad dash to objectives.
I'm not saying Tau don't have tools to fight Eldar, but I think the current dominant Tau lists do not. So I expect yet another meta shift, and soon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 22:03:52
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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anonymou5 wrote: labmouse42 wrote:A lot of that can be fixed if your opponent brought some C: SM to add ATSKNF to their squads. Heck, if you can bring a techmarine in the new codex, it might even be worth it to add that to another squad.
The reason is the ATSKNF means that your not going to be sweeping all 3 squads.
The riptides will be able to get away to rally as the other unit will hold the sweepers at bay.
Agreed. C: SM add a ton to Tau.
Although the Ethereal can also hand out stubborn. However, in my experience, most Tau players think they are "assault proof" and don't think to hand out Stubborn; when they can take extra shots instead. Which often backfires.
And any unit he is with is stubborn by default.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 22:29:06
Subject: Re:Tips for Tau Players
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Murrieta, CA
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anonymou5 wrote: Thaylen wrote:anonymou5 wrote: TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:I like this thread a lot. I would add that seeker missiles, marker lights, early warning overrides, and lots of fire warriors and fire blades: ruin Eldar's day. No matter what: take away their cover, then shoot, then win. Its pretty simple. I have played few games against new Eldar and won based upon this reasoning. I looked through their book and saw that they: rely on cover a lot, rely on movement a lot, and most importantly: rely on wave serpents a lot. Wave Serpents can be very scary during the first couple turns but I have found out that seeker missiles and riptides will knock them out. My friend even said that new Tau have too many hard counters against new Eldar and gave up on turn 3 because I blew up his transports and troops. As for farsight and his deathstar, yea he might not be fearless but you have ALL his squad's shots before they can assault you to take out key melee units and hit and run worked very well for me the other day when fighting ravenwing dark angels. As for challenges you have to be smart and know what you are getting into. I accepted a challenge with farsight and ended up crushing his sergeant because I knew he had no instant death weapon capabilities. It seems to me that your Tau friends were not smart with their tactical moves and that they should play more and learn about eldar more.
I disagree.... While Eldar's impact on the meta is still forming, and we don't really know who has an edge right now.... Based on what I saw at ATC (obviously a small sample size), Eldar eat Tau's lunch. It's nasty. Here's what the typical Eldar versus Tau game looks like. Turn 1) All non Skyray Markerlights go away while Wave Serpeants dance out of range of everything but Riptides. 2) Riptides shooting without marker support does little to nothing 2-4) Tau Troops vanish 4-6) Eldar Troops start appearing on objectives, and shurikan weapons/D weapons/etc start to poke holes in Riptides.
And really, even though Footdar isn't as common, going with my huge sample size of 1, Recius absolutely spanked the Tau Army that won Alamocon or whatever.
Only one problem with your summary there. expending your serpent shields on wave serpents when your opponents have skyrays and riptides is asking for disaster. Without serpentshields to protect you from pens, skyrays riptides, ionheads, and railheads will rip open your serpents. Eldar have the ability to mulch pathfinders from accross the baord, but this doesn't mean auto win by any stretch. Personally I run Tau with eldar psychic support (guide+prescience+ other Div/Fate Power). I usually only start running pathfinders in 1750ish points games.
Taudar/Eldau are nasty no doubt.
Just to clarify, I don't play Tau or Eldar. I'm just giving a real quick summary of how some of the games at the ATC went down. At BS3 without marker support, thus often missing, and not bypassing the 4+ cover from the moving WS; I'm not sure how Riptides are tearing them up. Even Railheads at BS4 aren't going to be reliably killing WSs faster than they're killing everything else in the Tau Army. Plus, you're not going to see Ionheads, Railheads and Skyrays in one list. It'll usually be two Skyrays and one squad of Missile Sides. Serpents can dance around Missile Side Range all day, so they're not that big an issue.
Even if we assume 3 Railheads, and 3 Riptides with Ion Accelerator (which I've never seen at a major tourney, either in person or in summaries), that's not going to kill more than one or two Serpents in a turn. 3 Railheads = 2 hits, = 1.75 pens or so = 1 gets through = .5 blow up
3 IA Riptides, harder to calculate because it's blast. Let's assume they kill 1 a turn (which is incredibly generous). So by turn 4 they've killed 6 Serpents, in the mean time half the Tau Army is dead, and jetbikes are about to make their mad dash to objectives.
I'm not saying Tau don't have tools to fight Eldar, but I think the current dominant Tau lists do not. So I expect yet another meta shift, and soon.
Missileside are kinda meh acutally that 36" range is rather limiting, which is why my HS section actually looks like skyray, Ionhead, Railhead w/ Longstrike (i've been starting to favor double fusion crisis suits over the railhead though). A crisis team with a commander with iridium armor will provide far more mobility than the broadsides and pretty much the same durability (T5 2+ FNP Commander at the front with puretide chip for funsies). The crisis team will kill a wave serpent a turn by itself (and you have to give up a lot of board presence to outrange mobile missile pods)
You speak of mulching a tau army with serpent shields, Left alone, a serpent will kill maybe a dozen kroot over the entire game. 4.5 avg shots x 2/3 chance to hit x 5/6 chance to wound x 5/6 chance to fail save will kill 2.08 kroot per turn. I don't see this army wiping firepower your are talking about. That's less than 100pts of kroot. The shield certainly has its uses in removing units dependent on coversaves, but is not the win button vs tau armies you claim.
All of this said though, my lists tend to favor durability over offense so my lists don't present many soft targets for an enemy to shoot at.
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Space Marines (Anything but BA or GK): 6k
Tau: 3k
-Thaylen |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 23:03:20
Subject: Re:Tips for Tau Players
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Thaylen wrote:anonymou5 wrote: Thaylen wrote:anonymou5 wrote: TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:I like this thread a lot. I would add that seeker missiles, marker lights, early warning overrides, and lots of fire warriors and fire blades: ruin Eldar's day. No matter what: take away their cover, then shoot, then win. Its pretty simple. I have played few games against new Eldar and won based upon this reasoning. I looked through their book and saw that they: rely on cover a lot, rely on movement a lot, and most importantly: rely on wave serpents a lot. Wave Serpents can be very scary during the first couple turns but I have found out that seeker missiles and riptides will knock them out. My friend even said that new Tau have too many hard counters against new Eldar and gave up on turn 3 because I blew up his transports and troops. As for farsight and his deathstar, yea he might not be fearless but you have ALL his squad's shots before they can assault you to take out key melee units and hit and run worked very well for me the other day when fighting ravenwing dark angels. As for challenges you have to be smart and know what you are getting into. I accepted a challenge with farsight and ended up crushing his sergeant because I knew he had no instant death weapon capabilities. It seems to me that your Tau friends were not smart with their tactical moves and that they should play more and learn about eldar more.
I disagree.... While Eldar's impact on the meta is still forming, and we don't really know who has an edge right now.... Based on what I saw at ATC (obviously a small sample size), Eldar eat Tau's lunch. It's nasty. Here's what the typical Eldar versus Tau game looks like. Turn 1) All non Skyray Markerlights go away while Wave Serpeants dance out of range of everything but Riptides. 2) Riptides shooting without marker support does little to nothing 2-4) Tau Troops vanish 4-6) Eldar Troops start appearing on objectives, and shurikan weapons/D weapons/etc start to poke holes in Riptides.
And really, even though Footdar isn't as common, going with my huge sample size of 1, Recius absolutely spanked the Tau Army that won Alamocon or whatever.
Only one problem with your summary there. expending your serpent shields on wave serpents when your opponents have skyrays and riptides is asking for disaster. Without serpentshields to protect you from pens, skyrays riptides, ionheads, and railheads will rip open your serpents. Eldar have the ability to mulch pathfinders from accross the baord, but this doesn't mean auto win by any stretch. Personally I run Tau with eldar psychic support (guide+prescience+ other Div/Fate Power). I usually only start running pathfinders in 1750ish points games.
Taudar/Eldau are nasty no doubt.
Just to clarify, I don't play Tau or Eldar. I'm just giving a real quick summary of how some of the games at the ATC went down. At BS3 without marker support, thus often missing, and not bypassing the 4+ cover from the moving WS; I'm not sure how Riptides are tearing them up. Even Railheads at BS4 aren't going to be reliably killing WSs faster than they're killing everything else in the Tau Army. Plus, you're not going to see Ionheads, Railheads and Skyrays in one list. It'll usually be two Skyrays and one squad of Missile Sides. Serpents can dance around Missile Side Range all day, so they're not that big an issue.
Even if we assume 3 Railheads, and 3 Riptides with Ion Accelerator (which I've never seen at a major tourney, either in person or in summaries), that's not going to kill more than one or two Serpents in a turn. 3 Railheads = 2 hits, = 1.75 pens or so = 1 gets through = .5 blow up
3 IA Riptides, harder to calculate because it's blast. Let's assume they kill 1 a turn (which is incredibly generous). So by turn 4 they've killed 6 Serpents, in the mean time half the Tau Army is dead, and jetbikes are about to make their mad dash to objectives.
I'm not saying Tau don't have tools to fight Eldar, but I think the current dominant Tau lists do not. So I expect yet another meta shift, and soon.
Missileside are kinda meh acutally that 36" range is rather limiting, which is why my HS section actually looks like skyray, Ionhead, Railhead w/ Longstrike (i've been starting to favor double fusion crisis suits over the railhead though). A crisis team with a commander with iridium armor will provide far more mobility than the broadsides and pretty much the same durability (T5 2+ FNP Commander at the front with puretide chip for funsies). The crisis team will kill a wave serpent a turn by itself (and you have to give up a lot of board presence to outrange mobile missile pods)
You speak of mulching a tau army with serpent shields, Left alone, a serpent will kill maybe a dozen kroot over the entire game. 4.5 avg shots x 2/3 chance to hit x 5/6 chance to wound x 5/6 chance to fail save will kill 2.08 kroot per turn. I don't see this army wiping firepower your are talking about. That's less than 100pts of kroot. The shield certainly has its uses in removing units dependent on coversaves, but is not the win button vs tau armies you claim.
All of this said though, my lists tend to favor durability over offense so my lists don't present many soft targets for an enemy to shoot at.
Maybe you're ahead of the meta on Missile Sides, but they're all over the tournament scene. That VoF is insane, and almost every Tau list at ATC had them. Typical HS was Missile Sides, two Skyrays. The occasional Railhead. I don't feel like the Ionhead has a place in competitive play right now, it excels at killing MEQ, which the entire Tau Army can handle.
Even if we assume no Wave Serpents can twinlink their Shields or shoot any of their other guns, that would still be 18 dead Kroot a turn in your typical spam Serpent list. Really though, we're both in serious theory land right now. I will say, based on a limited sample size, current competitive Eldar owns the standard Tau lists. I am also willing to accept your own conclusions are accurate. I think it's safe to say we don't know how Tau versus Eldar shapes up meta wise, not yet.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 23:39:35
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Water-Caste Negotiator
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With the right build I think that Tau vs Eldar is hugely alpha strike dependant. As mentioned earlier Tau have the tools to strip cover and pump out plenty of mid to high strength shots to glance serpents to death.
I don't think missilesides should be dismissed, with zephyr's grace they have an effective 43-48" threat range which isn't easily avoided. Markers can then bring the BS back up plus strip cover and assuming marker drones they have a 42" threat range, potentially in a missile spam crisis team with super-duper commander.
Add a couple of skyrays in the mix, possibly twin linked by an allied seer and they can put three glances each on av12, likely the networked markers won't be in range to strip cover, mind.
Plus some extra shots from the riptides advancing into fusion range for later turns and in theory that's at least three serpents down in a single turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 01:30:53
Subject: Re:Tips for Tau Players
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Sneaky Sniper Drone
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Really good thread. That was my Tau/C: SM army you tabled
I was astonished at how incredibly fast your Eldar/Dark Eldar were...
I learned alot from the match that I'll take with me into any other local tournaments I play.
Jotted down more than a handful of notes in my book.
I got tabled, but you were a great opponent to play against. Only my second local tournament - so I'm glad I got to walk away from it having learned a few things.
Been playing Tau for a while...but I always fiddle with rosters and can never seem to settle on one to use frequently. The Tau/C: SM list was the first one I had played for more than a single game.
I'm exploring options for a new list... and while I would love dearly to have it be pure Tau, I'm thinking about Eldar for allies. ...always in motion, the future is.
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"That's awesome. It's like the 8-bit version of the Necron army. "" -- The Power Cosmic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 01:47:36
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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I think a single farseer on a jetbike can add a lot to a Tau army. Throwing down prescience and guide in one turn is a nice perk.
In addition to that you could nab 3 bikes as late turn scorers, or go for a wave serpent.
Either way its not a bad idea.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 02:20:54
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
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Farseers sound nice but what about a firebrand solitarch and 3 bikes w/cannon?
He can guarentee they stay off for as long as possible whilst providing a near indestructible distraction that can and will knock out your opponent's back field units.
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DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 03:31:03
Subject: Re:Tips for Tau Players
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Sneaky Sniper Drone
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My initial thoughts are for a Farseer HQ... to give Guide and Prescience to the units that would need it most - Railheads, for example. Troop choice would be jetbikes so there's some potential for an end game capture or
contest.... Althoug they could easily get wiped of the objective if the game doesn't end on that turn.
Rangers also fit very well with Tau... but I have long range/sniper attacks native to my codex - so I figure th
Jetbikes are a better option.
Also toying around with Dark Reapers, lead by a Shas'O with the sensor kits and Puretide chip... they'd be long range, relentless fire support... ignoring all jink and cover saves, and would have Tank Hunters from the Puretide
Chip. The trick would be running them in a small enough unit to not be perceived as a large threat, but still keeping them effective.... so probably 4.
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"That's awesome. It's like the 8-bit version of the Necron army. "" -- The Power Cosmic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 03:38:35
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Focused Fire Warrior
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labmouse42 wrote:I played a few games at a local RTT this weekend, and played 2 Tau players. One was Tau/C: SM and the other Tau/Eldar. In both games I tabled the Tau players. These were both good players, but they were just not familiar with how to play against Eldar/Dark Eldar.
I don't play Tau, so while I am familiar with their rulebook I don't understand it to the same degree as Daemons, CSM, C: SM, Eldar, or Dark Eldar. As such, please take these suggestions as such.
Ok I like that you played Tau and won so I can see where you are coming from. I have only lost to new Eldar once and it was because the guy fielded not just one but TWO WRAITHKNIGHTS.....
Here is my diagnosis:
Get a Broadside Shas'vre No get an ethereal. Problem solved. Next.
Don't put your drones in front of your Broadsides if fighting Eldar! Why wouldn't you? Missile broadsides with missile drones? Have fun eating 50 or so s7 shots turn one.
Riptides Are Not Fearless They don't need to be, they have a 2+ armor save and 5 plus invulnerable save all the time. AND they are damn good at soaking up fire.
What did I just say? You really need ATSKNF What? You need allies to get good moral? What did I just say? Get an Ethereal.
Skyrays can be assaulted Supporting fire.
Don't shoot at invulnerable units How many things of Eldar/Dark Eldar's has invulnerable saves? Don't they just rely on cover and armor saves from jetbikes? Oh right, they do that a lot.
Farsight Does Not Have EW I just used him in a tournament with Shadowsun and he never got touched. Ever.
Don't Turtle Against Eldar I would like to make a Tau gun line list with Aun'va, Aun'shi, 4 or 5 squads of fire warriors, HYMP broadsides, 2 sky rays, and 2 full squads of pathfinders. I would totally turtle that list and win every time. Because I read both books thoroughly.
Hide your Broadsides See above, Supporting fire and Ethereals, you aren't going anywhere near that with any army.
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FOR THE GREATER F-ING GOOD! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 04:03:12
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Douglas Bader
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Or get both. The extra point of LD is vital, especially once your Ethereal is dead.
Riptides Are Not Fearless They don't need to be, they have a 2+ armor save and 5 plus invulnerable save all the time. AND they are damn good at soaking up fire.
You missed the point on that. You don't target the Riptide directly, you multi-assault, crush the other unit you assaulted (which, being a non-Riptide Tau unit, will die) and then the Riptide is trying desperately to avoid getting caught in a sweeping advance without ever getting attacked directly.
Skyrays can be assaulted Supporting fire.
So what do you plan to do against all the other stuff that's assaulting you? Supporting fire only works if you have a small number of threats, if you get hit in multiple places simultaneously you're losing stuff.
Not that I really like the idea of moving a Sky Ray to save it from assault. You give up half your firepower (assuming you launched the seekers on turn 1) and getting hit on a 3+ isn't much better than being auto-hit against any credible assault threats.
Don't shoot at invulnerable units How many things of Eldar/Dark Eldar's has invulnerable saves? Don't they just rely on cover and armor saves from jetbikes? Oh right, they do that a lot.
The death star. You know, the one with a re-rollable 2++.
TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:Don't Turtle Against Eldar I would like to make a Tau gun line list with Aun'va, Aun'shi, 4 or 5 squads of fire warriors, HYMP broadsides, 2 sky rays, and 2 full squads of pathfinders. I would totally turtle that list and win every time. Because I read both books thoroughly.
Seriously? You just suggested taking an Aun'va gunline against Eldar? You know that every basic transport in their army has a gun that wounds Aun'va's unit on a 2+, inflicts instant death, and doesn't allow cover or Aun'va's special ability? You might as well not even bother deploying your HQs and just give your opponent the free VPs.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/28 04:05:32
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 04:12:51
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Focused Fire Warrior
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Peregrine wrote:
Or get both. The extra point of LD is vital, especially once your Ethereal is dead.
Riptides Are Not Fearless They don't need to be, they have a 2+ armor save and 5 plus invulnerable save all the time. AND they are damn good at soaking up fire.
You missed the point on that. You don't target the Riptide directly, you multi-assault, crush the other unit you assaulted (which, being a non-Riptide Tau unit, will die) and then the Riptide is trying desperately to avoid getting caught in a sweeping advance without ever getting attacked directly.
Skyrays can be assaulted Supporting fire.
So what do you plan to do against all the other stuff that's assaulting you? Supporting fire only works if you have a small number of threats, if you get hit in multiple places simultaneously you're losing stuff.
Not that I really like the idea of moving a Sky Ray to save it from assault. You give up half your firepower (assuming you launched the seekers on turn 1) and getting hit on a 3+ isn't much better than being auto-hit against any credible assault threats.
Don't shoot at invulnerable units How many things of Eldar/Dark Eldar's has invulnerable saves? Don't they just rely on cover and armor saves from jetbikes? Oh right, they do that a lot.
The death star. You know, the one with a re-rollable 2++.
Ok sure, spend the points you don't need to get a leadership bonus you will never use.
How did I miss the point? Not a lot of people know how to multi assault well.
And the death star? The Eldar death star is a joke now that Tau can strip its cover and armor like no one's business. Wait. Didn't someone else discuss this battle of the death stars thing? Didn't it come up that the Baron is jump infantry and can't keep up with eldar jetbikes?
Here me out on the two special Ethereals though: Pathfinders and Sky rays will knock them out before they even get near Aun'va. I know it is very risky to take them both but Aun'shi has a save of his own and Aun'va gets big bonuses towards cover to all of the other weapons from the wave serpent. Try to attack him first turn: He goes to ground and gets a 2+ cover save. Ok yea with instant death he has 3 wounds but he gets a 2+!!!
Also keep in mind the only game I played where I lost against new Eldar was against two WRAITHKNIGHTS!!
Oh and did people forget that you can take seeker missiles on ANY TAU VEHICLE!!
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/08/28 04:40:01
FOR THE GREATER F-ING GOOD! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 04:49:06
Subject: Tips for Tau Players
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Douglas Bader
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You realize that Ethereals can die, right?
How did I miss the point? Not a lot of people know how to multi assault well.
Why are we talking about bad players? And you missed the point because you're talking about the Riptide's toughness and armor save in a situation where it never uses either of them.
Here me out on the two special Ethereals though: Pathfinders and Sky rays will knock them out before they even get near Aun'va. I know it is very risky to take them both but Aun'shi has a save of his own and Aun'va gets big bonuses towards cover to all of the other weapons from the wave serpent. Try to attack him first turn: He goes to ground and gets a 2+ cover save. Ok yea with instant death he has 3 wounds but he gets a 2+!!!
You need to re-read the Eldar codex. You can't take cover saves against the serpent shield, and since it's AP - Aun'va's special ability doesn't do anything. You have 5+ armor save, and if you fail it you remove a model from Aun'va's unit. With D6+1 twin-linked BS 4 shots per Wave Serpent. From 60" away.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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