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Much has been made recently of what cover save bonus is given to a model that is in a patch of area terrain that is sepparate from a ruin, when the model is still obscured 25% by the ruin. This is not that debate. That debate was an out cropping of whether or not ruins are indeed area terrain. That is the issue that I wish to address.

Ruins are a type of area terrain. There are several factors that go to support this, which I will enumerate.

1) Ruins have historicaly always been area terrain.
Up until this latest edition area terrain confered a 4+ coversave. With the latest edition they changed the base cover save for generic "rough ground" area terrain to 5+ and added additional rules to other types of area terrain. The rules for ruins are in addition to the rules for basic rules for area terrain.

2) Rules for Area Terrain
A. The listing for area terrain on pg 91 of the BRB, first two sentences clearly list what four things are considered area terrain. Those four things clearly listed as being area terrain are as follows: Marshes(water feature), woods (forests), ruins (ruins) and other rough ground ( the idea of rough ground could be any number of things in a sci-fi/fantasy setting).

B.Area terrain also has this gem placed in bold that will come in handy later. second paragraph first sentence. "For the clarity of the game, it is important to be able to tell where the boundary of a terrain feature is. This is where we need to introduce the concept of 'area terrain'. this comes back in "C" of the rules for ruins points.

C.Later in the same paragraph it states you can use trees, rocks, RUINS or whatever to represent the type of area terrain you are representing.
So ruins are listed twice as types of area terrain in the area terrain entry.

3) Rules for ruins
A.The first thing listed is the fact that rules for ruins are based on the height and AREA of the plastic Citadel city ruins, but can be applied to what ever that you are using. So these rules apply to the area, and it is up to the players themselves to determine what AREA the terrain covers. That would be the width and depth that is also considered a ruin. At a very minimum this would be any walls and modeled floors of the ruin. (so if you wanted to make a ground floor of a ruin you could, but would deffinetly be all floors above the first.) If the rules only aplied to vertical structures then the rules wouldn't specify that the horizontal areas are also covered by the rules.

B. Under rules for ruins the first sentence states that "All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover." This is different that other peices of terrain that provide cover that are not also area terrain. Examples can easily be found in the battlefeild debris section, where many of the items specificaly state that models behind (meaning 25% obscured) receive the cover. This specification is missing in the ruins entry as they are already area terrain and simply being in ruins provides the 4+ coversave.

C. Also in the first paragraph it states that the nature of ruins means that the boundaries of the terrain can be somewhat indistinct and that the best way to counter this is to ensure that both players agree on boundaries of a ruin before hand. So ruins have boundaries around its area, just like the other listed area terrain.

D. The ruins with bases rule states that if you base the model you should treat the base as area terrain. It doesn't tell you what type of area terrain to use, it could be an iron bark forrest, a pool of lava, simple rough ground or ruins themselves.

E. In the ruins without bases section, it tells you that if the ruin is not based do not treat the ground floor as either difficult nor area terrain. This is a bit of a key as well. You don't treat the ground floor as difficult terrain in this case as it's not part of the ruins, thus not difficult terrain. You also don't treat the ground floor as area terrain as it's not a part of the ruin, thus not area terrain.

Now there are going to be some dissenters to these points. Here are a few that I've come across.

1. But the rules for ruins are listed later and on their own!
Yes, as is the standard practice in the BRB general rules are listed with more specific rules listed later for certain game pieces. Vehicles being another example where general rules are laid down with type specific rules laid out later.

2. Doesn't the last paragraph of Area terrain say that models in area terrain recieve a 5+ cover?
Yes, it does. It doesn't limit the save to 5+, however. Just as basic rules through out the book are the minimum standard, further rules for specific items can be in effect as well. Example; an Iron Bark Forrest is area terrain that grants a 3+ coversave. Basic rules do not limit specific rules, specific rules are either "in addition to" or "an exception to" basic rules. Holding that the bolded text at the bottom of the area terrain rules is the end all be all of area terrain rules, then anything that would be classified as area terrain could never be anything else, so bye-bye rolling for forrests and rivers as they can only have the rules listed in area terrain, NO MORE!

3. It doesn't specificaly say in the ruins rules that it is area terrain!
This is my favorite. No, the exact words. "Ruins are area terrain" doesn't appear in the rules for ruins( although I earlier poionted out all the instances where they are classified as area terrain and the rules for ruins are applied to the area of the ruin itself.). I can find only two instances where a peice of terrain is classified as area terrain. That would be impact craters and wreckage/rubble. Nothing else. So if you consider anything else as area terrain you are not following the rules for terrain.

Thank you for your time. What do you think?

The base of a ruin, if it has a base, is area terrain...

"Ruins With Bases A ruin might be mounted on a base, decorated with rubble, and other debris. In this case, treat the base as area terrain." (98)

The base has an allowance to be area terrain.

Was that what you were stating because your post was very wordy.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The base of a ruin, if it has a base, is area terrain...

"Ruins With Bases A ruin might be mounted on a base, decorated with rubble, and other debris. In this case, treat the base as area terrain." (98)

The base has an allowance to be area terrain.

Was that what you were stating because your post was very wordy.

Yes, in fact I pointed that out in my post. Just as I pointed out that while the base is indeed considered area terrain. There is no instruction listing what type of area terrain that it could be. It could be an iron bark forest, pool of lava, rubble, wreckage or even more ruins.

It is wordy because the rules are wordy.

You appear to have obfuscated and hidden your point underneath a plethora of supporting details.

What, in one sentence, is the point of the original post?

 solkan wrote:
You appear to have obfuscated and hidden your point underneath a plethora of supporting details.

What, in one sentence, is the point of the original post?

Ruins are a type of area terrain.

All of the points were to cover the many ways in which this is supported. In all honesty the only thing that you trully need is the fact that ruins are listed in the Area Terrain rules...TWICE. on pg 91. I got into a long drawn out fracas with a guy on a different forum, where he exhibited what you may call "logical acrobatics" to say that they were not.

I figured I would just hit all the points at once in the opener to prevent them from being scattered throughout the thread.

I applogize for the length.

So this:

"Ruins With Bases A ruin might be mounted on a base, decorated with rubble, and other debris. In this case, treat the base as area terrain." (98)

Didn't convince him that the base of a ruin is treated as area terrain?

If I'm summing you up correctly (please tell me if I'm not), you are saying that the area terrain of a Ruins with a base has "ruins" as it's area-terrain-type and is therefore 4+ cover?

I'd say this falls under the "discuss with your opponent about terrain". Just because the main piece of terrain is a Ruin, doesn't mean that the area terrain type is ruins as well (although that would be logical), you could choose to classify it as "Rough Ground" (or indeed in your example, a forest to represent overgrown ruins) for a 5+ instead.

 Quanar wrote:
If I'm summing you up correctly (please tell me if I'm not), you are saying that the area terrain of a Ruins with a base has "ruins" as it's area-terrain-type and is therefore 4+ cover?

I'd say this falls under the "discuss with your opponent about terrain". Just because the main piece of terrain is a Ruin, doesn't mean that the area terrain type is ruins as well (although that would be logical), you could choose to classify it as "Rough Ground" (or indeed in your example, a forest to represent overgrown ruins) for a 5+ instead.

Thankfully that is not what I was stating. No, the base that you place a ruin upon can be what ever type of area terrain that you wish. It could be wreckage/rubble, a forrest of some type, a water feature, rough ground or even more ruins.

Ruins are a type of area terrain. That would mean that if you are on the second, third or whatever floor you are in ruins, which is a type of area terrain that provides a 4+cover save.You could even model a first floor (separate from any base) that would also count as being in ruins. There is no rule in rules stating that you have to be behind them in order to gain the 4+ cover save and they are noted in the area terrain listing.

As I said, I was involved in another "discussion" where a fellow denied that ruins were a type of area terrain.

Ruins themselves are not area terrain. Only the base (if there is one) is area terrain.

 grrrfranky wrote:
Ruins themselves are not area terrain. Only the base (if there is one) is area terrain.

What prevents them from being area terrain? I listed all of the reasons that they are area terrain. What are your reasons? What page says that? What makes something area terrain?

 Idolator wrote:
Thankfully that is not what I was stating. No, the base that you place a ruin upon can be what ever type of area terrain that you wish. It could be wreckage/rubble, a forrest of some type, a water feature, rough ground or even more ruins.

Ruins are a type of area terrain. That would mean that if you are on the second, third or whatever floor you are in ruins, which is a type of area terrain that provides a 4+cover save.You could even model a first floor (separate from any base) that would also count as being in ruins. There is no rule in rules stating that you have to be behind them in order to gain the 4+ cover save and they are noted in the area terrain listing.

As I said, I was involved in another "discussion" where a fellow denied that ruins were a type of area terrain.

Thank you, your intent (and the question) is now much clearer.
I can see where you are coming from, and essentially is an argument of omission on both sides.

 Idolator wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:
Ruins themselves are not area terrain. Only the base (if there is one) is area terrain.

What prevents them from being area terrain? I listed all of the reasons that they are area terrain. What are your reasons? What page says that? What makes something area terrain?

If ruins were area terrain then they wouldn't have needed to specify to treat the base as area terrain. They would have just said all parts of ruins are area terrain.

 BarBoBot wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:
Ruins themselves are not area terrain. Only the base (if there is one) is area terrain.

What prevents them from being area terrain? I listed all of the reasons that they are area terrain. What are your reasons? What page says that? What makes something area terrain?

If ruins were area terrain then they wouldn't have needed to specify to treat the base as area terrain. They would have just said all parts of ruins are area terrain.

Firstly, what defines area terrain?

Secondly, are there different types of area terrain?

Thirdly. the reason for adding this in the rules was due to the fact that there were rules for what to do when there is no base. So yes, once again, the base, if you make one, is area terrain. But what type of area terrain?

Is it your standing that there is only one type of area terrain?

Yes. There is no distinction between area terrain that is rocky vs area terrain that is not.

There are rules for ruins, and they tell you that the base (if there is one) is area terrain. You have permission to treat the base as area terrain, nothing else. Permissive ruleset.

 Idolator wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:
Ruins themselves are not area terrain. Only the base (if there is one) is area terrain.

What prevents them from being area terrain? I listed all of the reasons that they are area terrain. What are your reasons? What page says that? What makes something area terrain?

The lack of rules stating that the upper floors of a ruin are area terrain is what stops the upper floors of a ruin from being area terrain.

You can house rule it otherwise with your opponent if you are so inclined.

Remember 40K is a permissive ruleset so they have to tell you that it is area terrain otherwise it is not area terrain.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:
Ruins themselves are not area terrain. Only the base (if there is one) is area terrain.

What prevents them from being area terrain? I listed all of the reasons that they are area terrain. What are your reasons? What page says that? What makes something area terrain?

The lack of rules stating that the upper floors of a ruin are area terrain is what stops the upper floors of a ruin from being area terrain.

You can house rule it otherwise with your opponent if you are so inclined.

Remember 40K is a permissive ruleset so they have to tell you that it is area terrain otherwise it is not area terrain.

There is no lack of rules. As stated above, the rules for ruins are applied to the "height and area" of a ruin. Area, meaning the width and depth of the horizontal parts. Height meaning the vertical parts. There is no house rule there. Considering part of a ruins as anything other than a ruin is where the house rules come in.

They do tell you that ruins are area terrain. In the definition of area terrain, TWICE!

If you think that is incorrect, then please tell me what the book definition of area terrain is.

No, they tell you to treat the base(If there is one) as area terrain. It does not say to treat the base and the ruin on top of it as area terrain.

 BarBoBot wrote:
No, they tell you to treat the base(If there is one) as area terrain. It does not say to treat the base and the ruin on top of it as area terrain.

True. When did I say that the rules tell you to treat the base and ruins on top of it as area terrain?

Ruins are area terrain whether there is a base or not. The base could be any type of area terrain, including more ruins.

Could you please tell me the what types of area terrain there are?
edit:
The whole reason that I named this thread what I did is because those are the four types of area terrain listed when definning area terrain in the BRB.

You seem to think that all terrain is area terrain.

Only terrain that is listed as being area terrain is area terrain.

One example is on page 105 of the rulebook. Wreckage/rubble specifically states that it is area terrain.

The same page describes trench lines. There is no mention of them being area terrain, thus they are not. Permissive ruleset.

Ruins do not mention that they are area terrain, bases of ruins do.

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:
Ruins themselves are not area terrain. Only the base (if there is one) is area terrain.

What prevents them from being area terrain? I listed all of the reasons that they are area terrain. What are your reasons? What page says that? What makes something area terrain?

The lack of rules stating that the upper floors of a ruin are area terrain is what stops the upper floors of a ruin from being area terrain.

You can house rule it otherwise with your opponent if you are so inclined.

Remember 40K is a permissive ruleset so they have to tell you that it is area terrain otherwise it is not area terrain.

There is no lack of rules. As stated above, the rules for ruins are applied to the "height and area" of a ruin. Area, meaning the width and depth of the horizontal parts. Height meaning the vertical parts. There is no house rule there. Considering part of a ruins as anything other than a ruin is where the house rules come in.

They do tell you that ruins are area terrain. In the definition of area terrain, TWICE!

If you think that is incorrect, then please tell me what the book definition of area terrain is.

The base is area terrain, the ruins above are not area terrain, unless you have a rules quote saying otherwise. (They have an area as they are a 3d structure, but they are not area terrain as defined by the BRB).


They define area terrain on page 91 "For the clarity of the game, it is important to be able to tell where the boundary of the terrain feature is. This is where we need to introduce the concept of 'area terrain'." (91) and then it goes on to explain how you can show area terrain.

As for the other part of the definition area terrain grants a 5+ cover save if you are in area terrain. (I.E. in "the boundary of the terrain feature" (91)).

 BarBoBot wrote:
You seem to think that all terrain is area terrain.

Only terrain that is listed as being area terrain is area terrain.

One example is on page 105 of the rulebook. Wreckage/rubble specifically states that it is area terrain.

The same page describes trench lines. There is no mention of them being area terrain, thus they are not. Permissive ruleset.

Ruins do not mention that they are area terrain, bases of ruins do.

No not all terrain is area terrain. Just the four instances mentioined in the deffinition of area terrain:Woods, Marshes, Ruins and other rough ground, plus craters and rubble/wreckage.

These six things are the only things listed as area terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:
Ruins themselves are not area terrain. Only the base (if there is one) is area terrain.

What prevents them from being area terrain? I listed all of the reasons that they are area terrain. What are your reasons? What page says that? What makes something area terrain?

The lack of rules stating that the upper floors of a ruin are area terrain is what stops the upper floors of a ruin from being area terrain.

You can house rule it otherwise with your opponent if you are so inclined.

Remember 40K is a permissive ruleset so they have to tell you that it is area terrain otherwise it is not area terrain.

There is no lack of rules. As stated above, the rules for ruins are applied to the "height and area" of a ruin. Area, meaning the width and depth of the horizontal parts. Height meaning the vertical parts. There is no house rule there. Considering part of a ruins as anything other than a ruin is where the house rules come in.

They do tell you that ruins are area terrain. In the definition of area terrain, TWICE!

If you think that is incorrect, then please tell me what the book definition of area terrain is.

The base is area terrain, the ruins above are not area terrain, unless you have a rules quote saying otherwise. (They have an area as they are a 3d structure, but they are not area terrain as defined by the BRB).


They define area terrain on page 91 "For the clarity of the game, it is important to be able to tell where the boundary of the terrain feature is. This is where we need to introduce the concept of 'area terrain'." (91) and then it goes on to explain how you can show area terrain.

As for the other part of the definition area terrain grants a 5+ cover save if you are in area terrain. (I.E. in "the boundary of the terrain feature" (91)).

That is selective editing. as yo0u have selected a sentence from the middle of the entry while ignoring the ones that prove your premise to be false.

Second sentence of the same entry. "Other times this may be less clear, as in the case of marshes, woods, ruins, and other types of rough ground."

Two sentences after the one that you quoted "Trees, rocks, ruins, or whatever is appropriate for the kind of of area terrain you are representing, are usually placed within the boundary of the area terrains base."

Not once are ruins mentioned as a type of area terrain, but twice.

1) Not selective anything, I found a definition and posted it.

2)Usually, not always.

3) Ruins specify what part of the ruin is area terrain, and the rules only mention the base.

4) Bottom line is, as with all terrain, discuss it with your opponent pre-game.

 DeathReaper wrote:
1) Not selective anything, I found a definition and posted it.

2)Usually, not always.

3) Ruins specify what part of the ruin is area terrain, and the rules only mention the base.

4) Bottom line is, as with all terrain, discuss it with your opponent pre-game.

Choosing a small portion while ignoring the rest would be the perfect example of "selective". As you have selected a portion outside of the whole.

I have no idea what point 2 is for.

Rules for ruins specify that if the is no base then the area under it is neither difficult nor area terrain, if it has a base that base under it is area terrain. It doesn't't specify what type of area terrain.

Point 4. Agreed.

Area terrain is area terrain. There is no rules distinction between different pieces of area terrain.

Ruins however, are clearly defined. If it has a base it is counted as area terrain. Nothing about ruined buildings states it is area terrain. This is a permissive ruleset. That means you need permission for everything. You have permission to treat bases of ruins as area terrain. You have no permission to treat ruined buildings as area terrain.

You can house rule your ruined buildings if you choose, but you should already be discussing what type of terrain your using before a game. Good luck forcing a house rule upon people you meet at a flgs.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Area terrain is area terrain. There is no rules distinction between different pieces of area terrain.

Ruins however, are clearly defined. If it has a base it is counted as area terrain. Nothing about ruined buildings states it is area terrain. This is a permissive ruleset. That means you need permission for everything. You have permission to treat bases of ruins as area terrain. You have no permission to treat ruined buildings as area terrain.

You can house rule your ruined buildings if you choose, but you should already be discussing what type of terrain your using before a game. Good luck forcing a house rule upon people you meet at a flgs.

Exactly this.

Area terrain has certain benefits (Like a 5+ cover save) , but area terrain is just that area terrain...

Wait, is this whole argument actually about whether, if you go to ground on the upper levels of a ruin, you get a +1 or a +2 cover save?

Since page 98, Ruins with Bases, and Ruins Without Bases, explicitly covers how to treat the ground floor of the ruin.

I would like to see someone who disagrees with Idolator dissect his OP.
He covered pretty much everything in the OP; and yet, people keep posting who have obviously not read the OP. If you don't want to read it, don't get involved! He has interesting points...there's no need to spew forth arguments that he addresses in the OP.

im used to just saying even the platform the ruins are on isnt terrain because both my friends and me always thought it was dumb to need to roll difficult terrain to walk around a pathway lol. Yeah if we went OVER the ruins we rolled, but not around them.

Terrain is pretty much a game by game ruleset anyway. They have guidelines, but unless you use GW terrain (and who only has GW terrain?) theres going to be confusions between them the BRB cant help with.

People argue what kind of terrain a piece is? Thats normal. People arguing what kind of save a type of terrain gets? Thats where the BRB comes in (love it when people try to deny me my 3+ cover for going to ground in area terrain lol)

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I would like to see someone who disagrees with Idolator dissect his OP.
He covered pretty much everything in the OP; and yet, people keep posting who have obviously not read the OP. If you don't want to read it, don't get involved! He has interesting points...there's no need to spew forth arguments that he addresses in the OP.

1) his OP is a mess

2) there is nothing there that is cited that states that the upper levels of a ruin are area terrain, and in a permissive ruleset that means they are not.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I would like to see someone who disagrees with Idolator dissect his OP.
He covered pretty much everything in the OP; and yet, people keep posting who have obviously not read the OP. If you don't want to read it, don't get involved! He has interesting points...there's no need to spew forth arguments that he addresses in the OP.

1) his OP is a mess

2) there is nothing there that is cited that states that the upper levels of a ruin are area terrain, and in a permissive ruleset that means they are not.

1) His OP is not a mess--or at least, I did not have trouble following it. Your opinion that his post was "a mess" is merely an opinion, and not rules-based It did take more time to read than users of this forum are used to allotting to a single post. If you did have trouble following it, ask more clarifying questions than you already have. If you've ever read Aquinas, then you should be familiar with how his post was organised.

2) In the OP, read #2A, #2C, and Objection #3 (in red).