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 Thaylen wrote:
Tau blacksun filters give immunity to the Blind USR, at least it will still work on their infantry models though.



mmmm... 666th Post. I may have to stop posting for a bit.

Doh..just noticed it comes automatically in every suit.

Guess it's only really useful against infantry. Fire warriors and path finders will also fold if assaulted by scouts. The MM is good against Devil Fish. The storm still seems like a great unit for it's cost.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:
Which is a very simple change to make. The other boosts to it's utility suggest, as ever, a desire to push a poor seller to the fore. Not saying it's right or wrong, just slightly amused that it's become so transparent.

so you think that any unit that gets improved in a codex re-write is a cynical money grab? Logically then, you think gw should make all units rubbish? That's poor logic.

Personally i'm looking forward to my master of the fleet nerfing their arrival, and my hydras turning them to scrap once they do arrive. Open topped av 10...hell even my chimeras could pop that.

Yeah the whole "poor selling/new models always get the best rules" mantra really doesn't fly. If it did, Mutilators, warp talons, DA Flyers, Chariot of Tzeentch, and the entire SoB army would be top tier right now.

DA flyers have had one codex, lol. It's a little early to be using them as an example.

However, realistically, it's not about simply what models sell poorly and which don't. It's also a question of the market segment and predicted ROI. There are a lot of Space Marine armies, and they make a lot of Space Marine figures to keep with the demand. Increasing demand for the LSS fits into that strategy. On the other hand, they don't make a lot of Sisters of Battle, and may not even have the resources to keep up with an inflated demand for them. In that case, trying to push the sales of Sisters models wouldn't be productive. They'd have demand for more models than they can realistically produce.

Keep in mind that's just an example. I have no idea what their production capability of Sisters models is. I'm just saying that the solutions aren't always cut and dried, and interchangeable. Pushing poorly selling models in popular armies has a higher return on investment than pushing poorly selling models in poorly selling armies. And the poorly selling armies may not be targets for expansion. GW may not want to sell more Sisters than it does now, simply because there might be a material investment and an opportunity cost to drive those sales which has been considered more favorable with other options.

 Vain wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Also, the flame sword relic + the storm shield + Arti armour... Brutal!

That was my first thought..on a Bike, with IH CT...

But my Eldar playing friend claims that they can only use one relic per army to prevent such combos. Would expect the same with SM

Relics will probably be like most in the new codexs with a stipulation that you can only take one of each. So be sure to bring a cup for your Eldar friend's tears when you feild your unstoppable IH Chapter master with Burning Blade + Arti armor + EW SS + BIKE+ IWND + FNP

Click to see me freaking out over a misinterpretation of a rumor! It's hilarious!


On the other hand, as several people have said, I might ally in an Iron Hands CM on a bike with some of those relics rather than a SW WL on a thunderwolf. Like Yodhrin said, take some of those relics (burning blade, SS relic) along with a bike and artificer armor, and...well, you can pretty much kill everything that isn't a land raider, and can survive EVERYTHING that isn't a dozen plus AP2 wounds. And then you get a wound back...

Bike squad for troops ally, and then ally in an Ironclad, who ALSO has IWND...this could be fun. Heck, maybe ally in a Vindicator or Stormraven too. IWND on that could be pretty fun.

sockwithaticket wrote:
Which is a very simple change to make. The other boosts to it's utility suggest, as ever, a desire to push a poor seller to the fore. Not saying it's right or wrong, just slightly amused that it's become so transparent.

so you think that any unit that gets improved in a codex re-write is a cynical money grab? Logically then, you think gw should make all units rubbish? That's poor logic.

Personally i'm looking forward to my master of the fleet nerfing their arrival, and my hydras turning them to scrap once they do arrive. Open topped av 10...hell even my chimeras could pop that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sockwithaticket wrote:
Which is a very simple change to make. The other boosts to it's utility suggest, as ever, a desire to push a poor seller to the fore. Not saying it's right or wrong, just slightly amused that it's become so transparent.

so you think that any unit that gets improved in a codex re-write is a cynical money grab? Logically then, you think gw should make all units rubbish? That's poor logic.

Personally i'm looking forward to my master of the fleet nerfing their arrival, and my hydras turning them to scrap once they do arrive. Open topped av 10...hell even my chimeras could pop that.

DogofWar1 wrote:
So Tactical squad sergeants might not be able to take combi-weapons?

What?

Tactical Marines
...
Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant have access to Melee and Ranged wargear
...

Ranged Weapons: Models may replace their Boltgun or Bolt Pistol with one of the following:
...
Combi-Flamer, Melta, Plasma, or Grav (same cost)
...

Seems to me like they will.

..........

sockwithaticket wrote:
Which is a very simple change to make. The other boosts to it's utility suggest, as ever, a desire to push a poor seller to the fore. Not saying it's right or wrong, just slightly amused that it's become so transparent.

so you think that any unit that gets improved in a codex re-write is a cynical money grab? Logically then, you think gw should make all units rubbish? That's poor logic.

Personally i'm looking forward to my master of the fleet nerfing their arrival, and my hydras turning them to scrap once they do arrive. Open topped av 10...hell even my chimeras could pop that.

 wtwlf123 wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
So Tactical squad sergeants might not be able to take combi-weapons?

What?

Tactical Marines
...
Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant have access to Melee and Ranged wargear

Seems to me like they will.

Oh! I reread the rules stuff. Derp. I saw the post on the front page saying sergeants couldn't take ranged weapons, just pistols, and thought it was for tactical squads. I guess that was for assault squads, which I guess makes more sense now, Tac squads having bolters as a base and assault marines using pistols as a base.

My mistake, I retract my complaint, thanks for replying. I should probably start getting more sleep before I start reading too much into rumors thinking they've ruined my carefully crafted Pedrowing plans, haha.

I'm happy again!

Edit:
40k radio said bikes dropped 4 points. Does that mean they'll be coming in at a mere 21 pts per bike? That's incredibly cheap and totally awesome. I guess they're following the Chaos Bikers mold. If they end up being 70 pts base + 21 pts per after that, wow, a five man scoring biker squad (assuming mounted captain or chapter master) at a mere 112 points.

So yeah, TOTALLY allying in IH bike broken CM with a scoring bike squad in tow.

Edit: nvm, no CT on ironclads. :(
I wonder if Stormravens will have CT, and as such have IWND for IH. Or Land Raiders for that matter.

You scared me a bit ...not gonna lie.

So, it seems to me like all the points we save on the -2 reduction we have to give right back for the increase in points to the heavy/special weapons. Or am I misreading that?

The squad is 20 points cheaper, but Meltaguns are +5 points (making them 10 now) and Multi-Meltas are +10 (making them 10 now) so the overall points for a 10-man Tactical Squad in a Rhino w/ Combi-Melta, Melta, MM stays exactly the same as it was before? :-/

..........

I couldn't determine whether Grav weapons can be taken in great quantities or not? Is it only pistols and rifles for sergeant and special weapon upgrades? My MC list is terrified of the idea of an entire unit of grav weapons, but I don't see that as an option, or a heavy Grav weapon?

 Vain wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Also, the flame sword relic + the storm shield + Arti armour... Brutal!

That was my first thought..on a Bike, with IH CT...

But my Eldar playing friend claims that they can only use one relic per army to prevent such combos. Would expect the same with SM

Your friend is mistaken. It's one of each relic, not one only. Same as Dark Angels.

 Oaka wrote:
I couldn't determine whether Grav weapons can be taken in great quantities or not? Is it only pistols and rifles for sergeant and special weapon upgrades? My MC list is terrified of the idea of an entire unit of grav weapons, but I don't see that as an option, or a heavy Grav weapon?

Regular Squads will only be able to take the Rifles and Pistols. The Cannons are exclusive to the Devastator Centurions.

Which is daft, but I guess Chaos players' heads would (understandably) explode if we got a recut devastator sprue in addition to the other 3 new plastic marine kits.

 Oaka wrote:
I couldn't determine whether Grav weapons can be taken in great quantities or not? Is it only pistols and rifles for sergeant and special weapon upgrades? My MC list is terrified of the idea of an entire unit of grav weapons, but I don't see that as an option, or a heavy Grav weapon?

Veterans might be able to 'spam' them:

" Command Squad
1 may be taken for each Captain, Chaplain or Librarian in the army
-15 points less
Apothecary +15 upgrade
-60 point discount for bikes
-5 point discount on Storm shields
May trade Bolt Pistols for Bolters for free
Veterans may take Melee, and Ranged, Special wargear[b]
May take Standard of the Emperor Ascendant "

 wtwlf123 wrote:
The squad is 20 points cheaper, but Meltaguns are +5 points (making them 10 now) and Multi-Meltas are +10 (making them 10 now) so the overall points for a 10-man Tactical Squad in a Rhino w/ Combi-Melta, Melta, MM stays exactly the same as it was before?

Bringing everything in line with DA pricing, all of my 10 man Tactical squad builds are 5 points cheaper for exactly the same thing. That's including the LD9 sergeant, but I don't see anything giving Codex Space Marines free weapons like the 5ed Codex. Certainly isn't the end of the world, but especially for those combo's that were built around the freebies from the 5ed Dex, that 2 point per model reduction doesn't amount to much.

On the LSS, wasn't it rumored to be an Assault Vehicle? Or is that something Open Topped allows? (I remember reading that in a 40k radio leak, and I'm not too familiar with OT vehicle rules) Could be interesting with Raven Guard CT.

Open topped vehicles are assault vehicles (I'm an Ork & DE player, so trust me on this one!)

(page 82 in the rule book)

 centuryslayer wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
I couldn't determine whether Grav weapons can be taken in great quantities or not? Is it only pistols and rifles for sergeant and special weapon upgrades? My MC list is terrified of the idea of an entire unit of grav weapons, but I don't see that as an option, or a heavy Grav weapon?

Veterans might be able to 'spam' them:

" Command Squad
1 may be taken for each Captain, Chaplain or Librarian in the army
-15 points less
Apothecary +15 upgrade
-60 point discount for bikes
-5 point discount on Storm shields
May trade Bolt Pistols for Bolters for free
Veterans may take Melee, and Ranged, Special wargear[b]
May take Standard of the Emperor Ascendant "

Command squad + bikes + grav guns for everyone = pain

 Nevelon wrote:


Command squad + bikes + grav guns for everyone = pain

Take a combi-flamer to deal with pesky horde armies, and yeah, all the bases are pretty much covered.

Except when Baledrakes show up...

Throw a guy with 2+ in the unit.

Or if they can all get combi-weapons, give them all combi-grav for one turn......nasty nasty stuff.

15 shots
10 hits
6-7 wounds at AP 2 on most targets

Not bad for 50 points.

 Leth wrote:
Throw a guy with 2+ in the unit.

Or if they can all get combi-weapons, give them all combi-grav for one turn......nasty nasty stuff.

15 shots
10 hits
6-7 wounds at AP 2 on most targets

Not bad for 50 points.

If I'm reading the rumors right, full grav. guns are just 5ppm more then a combi. If you are on a bike, you have the TL bolters if you need to mow down lightly armored targets. Most battlefields are full of stuff that could use multiple volleys of grav. fire. Probably worth the investment.

I think my rule of thumb is to use grav. weapons on relentless platforms (aka bikes, terminator characters) or units I'm planning on camping with. For the marine on the move, I think plasma is better overall.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Vain wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Also, the flame sword relic + the storm shield + Arti armour... Brutal!

That was my first thought..on a Bike, with IH CT...

But my Eldar playing friend claims that they can only use one relic per army to prevent such combos. Would expect the same with SM

Relics will probably be like most in the new codexs with a stipulation that you can only take one of each. So be sure to bring a cup for your Eldar friend's tears when you feild your unstoppable IH Chapter master with Burning Blade + Arti armor + EW SS + BIKE+ IWND + FNP

Seriously, all though obviously the chapter master has more wounds, I think the real brute will be an IH librarian kitted out with the special storm shield, burning brand, bike and arti armour with either iron arm or warp speed (obviously some luck involved) depending on opponent, hopefully anyway, and a command squad....

Could even have the librarian on bike with burning brand and storm shield and then have a chapter master with the storm shield relic and TH to tank. Could be very brutal indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, does allying in another c:sm army give you access to another set of relics? The only thing worse than one of those CM running around will be two of them....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously one of them won't be an IH but it's bad enough without the IH CT, they're just a bonus!

I'm looking at the relic banner intently... now I have to decide whether to give it to a captain or to honour guard/command squad....

I like how since the mods closed the last thread people had to make a new one.

 Nevelon wrote:

 centuryslayer wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
I couldn't determine whether Grav weapons can be taken in great quantities or not? Is it only pistols and rifles for sergeant and special weapon upgrades? My MC list is terrified of the idea of an entire unit of grav weapons, but I don't see that as an option, or a heavy Grav weapon?

Veterans might be able to 'spam' them:

" Command Squad
1 may be taken for each Captain, Chaplain or Librarian in the army
-15 points less
Apothecary +15 upgrade
-60 point discount for bikes
-5 point discount on Storm shields
May trade Bolt Pistols for Bolters for free
Veterans may take Melee, and Ranged, Special wargear[b]
May take Standard of the Emperor Ascendant "

Command squad + bikes + grav guns for everyone = pain

Command Squad bikes actually affordable? OK, will need to grab another Ravenwing battleforce to get enough bikes.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Seriously, all though obviously the chapter master has more wounds, I think the real brute will be an IH librarian kitted out with the special storm shield, burning brand, bike and arti armour with either iron arm or warp speed (obviously some luck involved) depending on opponent, hopefully anyway, and a command squad....

Could even have the librarian on bike with burning brand and storm shield and then have a chapter master with the storm shield relic and TH to tank. Could be very brutal indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, does allying in another c:sm army give you access to another set of relics? The only thing worse than one of those CM running around will be two of them....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously one of them won't be an IH but it's bad enough without the IH CT, they're just a bonus!

My one concern with a Bike Libby would be two wounds instead of 4. With Mastery Level 2, Bike, AA, Burning Blade, and EW Stormshield you'd be looking at 235 points, I think, which is a lot for a 2 wound model. While you'd get IWND, I'd be concerned about volume of fire causing problems, since IWND won't work if you lose both of those wounds, whereas with a CM, you'd have to somehow lose ALL 4 wounds.

Basically, with the 6+ FNP, if would take a little over 12 savable wounds to kill the Libby, versus a little over 24 with the CM, assuming no AP2. Also, it doesn't sound like they'd get Mounted Assault. Also, Iron Arm loses some effectiveness since most stuff is getting wounded on a 2+ anyway with Burning Blade (+3 strength and all), and you get EW from the shield. The extra toughness would be nice though. The other problem is you have to roll for that power, and only have a 1/3 chance of getting it. Warp Speed initiative boost would be nice, but D3 extra attacks is kind of a waste when the CM would have had 4A. At most, you get 1 extra attack with the Libby, with a 1/3 chance of having 1 less attack too. The most useful power of biomancy would be enfeeble, IMO.

It's unfortunate also that most libbies don't have divination, prescience would have been a good power too, and some of the divination powers are awesome.

What might work better is a bike army with Tigurius allied in. Sure, he's on foot (or a transport if you give him one), but I could see an IH Bike army with him allied in being very strong. 3 powers, access to divination, re-roll which powers you get. If you had some combination of Enfeeble, Forewarning, Misfortune, and Prescience, those bike squads suddenly get force multiplied through the roof.


You know, I'm seeing a pattern here:
Step 1. Choose non-UM chapter
Step 2. Build optimized army list
Step 3. Ally Tigurius
Step 4. PROFIT!

No advanced order for the marines up yet. Weird.

Aaaaaaaand GW's UK website looks like it's down.

There goes my hopes of an early pre-order.

Apparently the Whirlwind has vanished from existence. Anyone heard any rumours about that?

Goddamnit I have stayed up while on holiday for preorder goodness and GW don't have the decency to ensure a robust system is in place! Who didn't think people would flock to the site in droves?!
Grrr :#

Well, I guess it was to be expected that SM interest was bigger than say Tau or Eldar!