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ok this is my first list and im not sure if its viable playable or able to win

Farseer on jetbike with spirit stone and runes of witnessing

20 dire avengers with 2 exarchs in 2 wave serpents which have bright lances and Holofields

2 squads of 8 jetbikes with 2 shruiken cannons

9 shining spears Exarch with star lance powers are Hit and Run and Monster Hunter

Crimson Hunter Exarch

2 Fire prisms with Holofields and Spirit stones

1 wraithknight with suncannon and scatter shield or heavy wraith cannons with scatter lasers


Let me know what you think


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Someone please post

Hey.
Dire avengers have mixed opinions, but usually the consensus is run them as 5 man no upgrades in serpent, or a 10 man guardian squad. Generally the 10 DAs are to expensive over the gaurdians to be worth there points. Also serpents need scatter laser, shuikrn cannon, holofeilds upgrades. That is the nastiest way to run serpents. Don't really know about shining spears, seem ok.

Everything else looks solid.

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
Farseer on jetbike with spirit stone and runes of witnessing

I'd drop the runes of witnessing unless it is just a use of left over points after the rest of the list is built. Other than that, this is a good setup.

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
20 dire avengers with 2 exarchs in 2 wave serpents which have bright lances and Holofields

ninjafiredragon pretty much nailed this already. Wave serpents are AWESOME. The cheapest way to get them on the table is with MSU 5-man DA units. You have enough DA to get 4 WS on the table which would very viable. (I magnetized my DA Exarch so that he can be either a regular DA or the Exarch as required. Just a modeling option.)

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
2 squads of 8 jetbikes with 2 shruiken cannons

Jetbikes are arguably the best troops in the codex. Best set up is 6 bikes with 2 SC or 9 bikes with 3 SC. Both setups want a jetlock to accompany them for conceal. (Another setup is 3 bikes without upgrades in reserves for late objective grabs).

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
9 shining spears Exarch with star lance powers are Hit and Run and Monster Hunter

Typically what I see/hear about shining spears is "meh" On the other hand, built/painted right they can look really cool!

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
Crimson Hunter Exarch

This is a great setup. If possible, get an Autarch into the list to help control when the hunter hits the table.

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
2 Fire prisms with Holofields and Spirit stones

You want fire prisms in pairs. They need holofields just as much as serpents so this is good. spirit stones are not required. So that can free up some points.

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
1 wraithknight with suncannon and scatter shield or heavy wraith cannons with scatter lasers

I don't run wraithknights but this looks like a typical build from what I recall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Using the models that you have I'd do something like this at 2000 points.

Farseer, jetbike, singing spear, Spirit Stone
Autarch, jetbike, fusion gun, laser lance, mantle
Jetlock X2

DAx5 in WS with SL, SC, HF
DAx5 in WS with SL, SC, HF
DAx5 in WS with SL, SC, HF
Jetbike X6, SCx2
Jetbike X6, SCx2

Crimson Hunter Exarch

Fire Prism, HF
Fire Prism, HF
Wraithknight, SL


this comes to 1974. With the last 26 points I would either and 1 DA to two of the serpents OR I would upgrade one of the DA units to a 10-man guardian unit with no upgrades and put them into the same serpent.

If you stick with all DA, then this gives you 33 models, 5 vehicles, 1 flyer, and 1 MC. If you grab some guardians then you have 36 models instead.

Use the autarch as a distraction unit. Send him off alone and unafraid in the opposite direction from the rest of your army. This will take pressure off of the bulk of your army and let you focus on whatever is before them. Then, after they're done trashing the enemy in front of them, go wipe out whatever was foolish enough to chase after the autarch. If your opponent ignores the autarch that works too! Use him to pick out choice targets and vaporize them.

Hope this helps. Have fun with your army!!!

Oh forgot... With your stock wraith knight, don't use scatters because the knight can only shoot 2 weapons a turn. If your running the sun cannon, then bring one laser to twin link the whole thing

Ok so why do you all hate dire avengers???

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
Ok so why do you all hate dire avengers???

They don't do anything that guardian's can't do for cheaper, except for putting a serpent on the table. If you're just looking for a serpent then get 5 man DA with no upgrades. That's the cheapest way to do it. If you want shuriken firepower then get bikes or guardians. They're more points efficient. Plus guardians can have special weapons.

Never buy guardian jetbikes and NOT upgrade them.. worst statement ive read on this entire forum. Second worst was insinuating that a 9 man GJB squad is a good idea, this squad will get shot from everywhere, are almost impossible to hide and are super fragile. 3 man squads with a cannon are definitely the way to go.

Dire avengers offer more utility than guardians with increased range, however unless you are playing foot you only take 5 in a serpent, dont waste points putting 6 DA in a serpent just cause you had an extra 10 points, there are a lot of better choices to spend points on than wasting them on a unit that will probably never even get out of its vehicle unless it gets destroyed.

Shining spears are crap, take the points from them and elsewhere and make them a warlock seer council on bikes to go with your farseer.

I disagree. A three man squad with a single shuriken cannon is a bigger joke then a 3 man squad without the cannon. A 3 man windrider squad does nothing but stay in reserves as long as it can. Do not buy a shuriken cannon unless you run at least 5 bikes and actually want them on the table early as a unit that actually shoots at things. 3 man squads are there to hide in reserves until you need them to claim. And they need scriers gaze to support that tactic. A 3 man squad with a cannon will do nothing but get killed as soon as possible as its an actual threat, does not have enough bodies to protect the cannon for any serious amount of time and is in danger of breaking and fleeing the table by losing a single bike, which immediatly wastes those 10 extra points.

A GJB squad with 9 guys and 3 shuricannons is an actual threat, has bodies to soak up wounds from your shuricannons but still all but requires a warlock on jetbike with conceal to make the unit work.

agree to disagree, ive yet to lose a 3 man squad of jetbikes and they have done hundreds of times their points over the last few months, if you took 5 bikes at a tournament your opponent would laugh at you even if they didnt play eldar.

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
Never buy guardian jetbikes and NOT upgrade them.. worst statement ive read on this entire forum. Second worst was insinuating that a 9 man GJB squad is a good idea, this squad will get shot from everywhere, are almost impossible to hide and are super fragile. 3 man squads with a cannon are definitely the way to go.

3-man jetbikes sit in reserve and hope to be able to grab a late objective. Put the points towards something that won't be sitting in reserves. This reserves set-up should be kept as cheap as possible so that your on-table army is as strong as possible. The point being to be a cheap unit automatically means no upgrades.

If the 3-man jetbikes hit the table sooner then they hope to plink away at something that won't turn its eye on the 3-man squad. If the 3-man squad is shot at, then it will blow away in the wind because it failed to bring enough riders. This tiny unit is only a threat to something that is already injured.

Either way, sitting in reserves or getting blown up after being shot at once, the points spent on 1 SC are wasted.

.
6-man jetbike unit with 2 SC and a jetlock is a legitimate threat capable doing some heavy lifting. This is a unit worth fielding from turn 1. It also won't run away after it loses 1 bike. This is how I always put bikes into my list. 122 for the squad + 50 for the warlock. Solid unit.

.
I've seen the 9-man unit perform as a viable option. But it does rise up on an opponents priority list and is harder to hide. On the other hand, it will punish anything it fires on (and do so in one turn vice nearly the entire game like the 3-man set-up). Again, the 9-man unit needs a lock to help protect it. This unit could also be a big distraction for 183 points. If it is indeed being “shot from everywhere” then 90% of your army is being ignored at 2000 points and being allowed to do whatever it wants.

.
Any other multiple is not worth it (4, 5, 7, 8, 10).

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
dont waste points putting 6 DA in a serpent just cause you had an extra 10 points, there are a lot of better choices to spend points on than wasting them on a unit that will probably never even get out of its vehicle unless it gets destroyed.

Big qualifier in the sample list I posted, “using the models that you have.”

I typically wouldn't put 6 DA into a WS either, but with only 26 points left over and all of the other units upgraded already, there weren’t many options of what to do with the points. Not typically making a 6-man DA unit is also why I suggested getting a Guardian unit. BUT, referring back to the qualifier… “using the models that you have”… two extra DA was AN option.

Looking at it again, another option with the sample list would be to drop the SL on the wraithknight and the SS on the jetseer. That gets 25 points back + the 26 points that were on the table. This gives you enough to get 1 jetlock and brings the points total to 1999. The lock then joins one of the 6-man jetbike units.

How are shining spears crap they have an AP 2 lance weapon with 6'' range so they get close attack with the lances also ap2 I think shoot charge kill and then run away with hit and run

the Dire avengers ar ein 10's because I want them in the serpent to distrace the enemy from my bikes and if I get 10 + serpent on one flank and 10+ serpent on the other flank and bikes in the middle wih tfire prisms and Wraithknight supporting fire I have a lot of things for him to choose to shoot at all of which can do some damage

and I did the math on 10 avengers VS full squad Guardians with upgrades------ the DA do more wounds on average than the Guardians against most common opposition (Tau and Marines, Eldar)

I think Most people would say that 10 dire avengers with exarchs are too much of a point sink to put into the serpents, the main firepower of the units are the serpents themselves.

Having only 2 serpents makes them much easier targets. At 2k 3-4 is probably a safer bet. Jetbikes aren't that hard to deal with in the current meta, ignore cover high str is the norm. sure they have a 3+ but its just not good enough against loads of wounds.

The shining spears are good but the unit seems kind of large.

Why the spirit stone and runes on farseer normally there are better places to put points.

The crimson hunter exarch has a 50/50 chance of coming in at the wrong time vs enemy flyers and being shoot off the board before it does anything meaningful.

Firm Prisms bring your tank count up to 4 but against 2k lists this can be cleared in 1-2 turns through glancing or getting back armor and penning.

As before wraithknight should either be 2 heavy wraith cannons, or suncannon scattershield scatter laser.

Wraithknight is suncannon scattershield

My main problem is I have to go to my opponent everyone I play outranges me and makes gunlines

So my plan is do disrupt the gun line and make him move

My opinions are starting to drift away from mainstream Eldar advice, but I personally like Dire Avengers, and still feel that they are a bit better than Guardians in some cases.

In terms of actually contributing to a fight, Dire Avengers have a bit of an edge. There are definitely times when you will want to pile troops out of your Wave Serpents to add some localized fire power to an area of the battle, and in those situations Dire Avengers have a bit more flexibility. The 18 inch range lets them deploy further out for their shoot + battle focus shenanigans, which means you put the Wave Serpent itself in less risk overall by disembarking with Dire Avengers. They also have 4+ armour which *can* help against return fire, and definitely helps against regular flamers. Dire Avengers also have better leadership- which is something that should never be underestimated when it comes to objective based games. I also would like to note the Shimmer Shield, which grants a 5++ and is probably the best way to defend your scoring troops from Heldrakes available. So if you play a lot of CSM a Shimmer Shield can be the difference between barely holding to being wiped from an objective by Heldrakes.

There are also instances where do to poor luck, or against a heavy shooting army and not getting first turn you might *god forbid* lose a wave serpent before it gets a chance to move and benefit from holofields. 3 Hull points is 3 Hullpoints. In these cases, Dire Avengers will be more able to contribute over the course of a game thanks to their slightly higher durability and range.

Thats not to say Guardians aren't good- they are. But I still think Mech Dire Avengers have a place, and there are definitely situations where you will want them. But the added extra bit of durability in the form of Armour, Leadership, better range, and Shimmer Shield puts Dire Avengers ahead of Defenders for me. Because when it comes to claiming an objective, every little bit helps.

Guardian Jetbikes are also awesome. 6 + Warlock is generally what I would go for a Farseer Escort / general combat unit, otherwise squads of 3 w/ a cannon and maybe a Warlock for coming on from reserves and Objective Snagging. The warlock is expensive but conceal + turbo boost on an objective capper can be a powerful combination.

And while the internet loves to spew on and on about fire power per point, 90% of games are won and lost on objectives.

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
How are shining spears crap they have an AP 2 lance weapon with 6'' range so they get close attack with the lances also ap2 I think shoot charge kill and then run away with hit and run

the Dire avengers ar ein 10's because I want them in the serpent to distrace the enemy from my bikes and if I get 10 + serpent on one flank and 10+ serpent on the other flank and bikes in the middle wih tfire prisms and Wraithknight supporting fire I have a lot of things for him to choose to shoot at all of which can do some damage

and I did the math on 10 avengers VS full squad Guardians with upgrades------ the DA do more wounds on average than the Guardians against most common opposition (Tau and Marines, Eldar)

how in the world did DAs do better at shooting vs full squad? if there both in range..... then the gardains will do alot more. herers the proper math hammer.
DAs vs t4 3+ armour target.... 3.704 wounds.
20 gardians and 2 shuiken cannons (u said a full squad with upgrades) t4 3+ amour..... 8.963 wounds.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
and against eldar+tau theres even more wounds....

By full squad I mean as many can fit in a wave serpent

And you cant put heavy weapons in a transport

And you have worse range so with guardians in range you have to move closer meaning your easier to assault which means elder guardians lose




Ok so what unit would yall suggest being my hammer instead of the shining spears

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
And you cant put heavy weapons in a transport

Why not?

See p66 Heavy Weapons. States that they take up a seat inside the transport. So, for instance: 10 guardians + 1 heavy weapon + 1warlock = 12 "bodies" for 12 seats inside a Serpent.

You still cant have 20 guardians in a serpent and in that respect the dire avengers are better because they have a slightly better chance at survival and at resisting a charge from regular units (compared to guardians)

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
You still cant have 20 guardians in a serpent and in that respect the dire avengers are better because they have a slightly better chance at survival and at resisting a charge from regular units (compared to guardians)

both squads bare minimum DAs are 40 points more. is that really worht it for a SLIGHTLY better chance of survival? and when they come out of a serpent, they will be in range on whatever they are going to shoot. i really think theres better things that you can spend your points on then dropping 40 for a slightly better chance, and a slight longer range.

Ok so what in the codex can I get for 80 points??? not much maybe a heavy weapon platform but those are short range......so not much

Depends on the rest of the list. Jetbikes and rangers both come in under 80. Or you can take a pair of vaul's support batteries then swap take the vibro-cannon for free for better range. Other choices too.

or making ur farseer a laughing seer. and upgrades on units that will help.