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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/31 17:41:09
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Imperial Admiral
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So I've been roped into a 3.5 D&D campaign that my girlfriend's writers group is going to start in the next couple of weeks. They're pretty cool folks, so I'm actually looking forward to it, but I've never actually sat down and played a tabletop RPG in my life. I've played D&D-based vidyagames like Neverwinter Nights 2 and Icewind Dale, but I rather suspect I'm missing a lot of the finer points of D&D going solely by these adaptations. So, some questions for those more experienced than I:
1) How in the name of holy hell do you actually play a paladin? I've always liked paladins, because I've always seen them as more the Judge Dredd/Space Marine interpretation of Lawful Good. The intertubes, I've found during my brief research into the subject, disagree with me strongly, and appear to believe paladins are some hybrid of a television evangelist and the Keystone Cops.
2) Am I too wary of low Willpower saves? It's the main reason I'm avoiding Fighter. I'd thought of a Fighter/Barbarian multiclass to combat (my perhaps shockingly inaccurate perception that a Fighter will be) constantly getting mind-affecting spells dumped on him that turn him useless or outright dangerous to everybody else.
3) Does this linear fighter/quadratic wizard trope hold true in 3.5, and is it as bad for all the other melee-based non-fighter classes?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/31 18:43:43
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Seaward wrote:1) How in the name of holy hell do you actually play a paladin? I've always liked paladins, because I've always seen them as more the Judge Dredd/Space Marine interpretation of Lawful Good. The intertubes, I've found during my brief research into the subject, disagree with me strongly, and appear to believe paladins are some hybrid of a television evangelist and the Keystone Cops
Paladins are really poorly designed in 3.5. I would try to find something in Complete Champion or Complete Divine that you like. Alternatively you could get them to play Pathfinder, which is an updated 3.5 and fixes all sorts of issues and makes a lot of classes much more viable.
Seaward wrote:2) Am I too wary of low Willpower saves? It's the main reason I'm avoiding Fighter. I'd thought of a Fighter/Barbarian multiclass to combat (my perhaps shockingly inaccurate perception that a Fighter will be) constantly getting mind-affecting spells dumped on him that turn him useless or outright dangerous to everybody else.
You can take feats or other things to help with it, and in theory you should have support from other classes in such situations. Reflex seems to be the most common at early and mid, but it depends on the DM. Unless you are something like Monk you will always have a weak save somewhere. You'll be happy when you are the only one making the fort save to breath or resist poison.
Seaward wrote:3) Does this linear fighter/quadratic wizard trope hold true in 3.5, and is it as bad for all the other melee-based non-fighter classes?
3.5 isn't called a "Caster Edition" for nothing. You can get away with it at low levels, but as it progress the problem is very apparent. Pathfinder still has this as well, but the melee classes are nowhere near as gimped in the mid and later stages.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 01:22:13
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Old Sourpuss
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Seaward wrote:1) How in the name of holy hell do you actually play a paladin? I've always liked paladins, because I've always seen them as more the Judge Dredd/Space Marine interpretation of Lawful Good. The intertubes, I've found during my brief research into the subject, disagree with me strongly, and appear to believe paladins are some hybrid of a television evangelist and the Keystone Cops.
The Paladin can be all of those or none of those. The best way I've found playing a Paladin is to play them like one might play a Space Marine. Dedicated to their mission, unfaltering in their courage, but unlike Space Marines, you are human, and can have compassion for weaker people. But Ahtman is right, Paladins are tough to play in 3.5 due to them being fighters without the feats and being clerics without all of the spells. They're fine if you have the 4 basic 'archetypes' filled (meat shield, healer, stealth, arcane caster) as they can help be the meat shield or can help with some healing in a pinch. One of my long time characters was a Paladin, he did well for what we had to deal with, but we were overshadowed by a GMPC :-\. Another alternative is to make a cleric that doesn't follow a God, but venerates the War and Healing domains. You get some nice combat things from the War Domain, and there are feats that allow you to heal amazingly well.
2) Am I too wary of low Willpower saves? It's the main reason I'm avoiding Fighter. I'd thought of a Fighter/Barbarian multiclass to combat (my perhaps shockingly inaccurate perception that a Fighter will be) constantly getting mind-affecting spells dumped on him that turn him useless or outright dangerous to everybody else.
Low Will is something that will come up, but at lower levels something that relies on you doing a will save won't have a massive DC to pass it anyways. Barbarians get bonuses against will saves during their rages if I remember correctly, and fighters get enough feats that Iron Will might not be a bad feat to pick up. Alternatively, Paladins get to add their Charisma modifiers to all saving throws starting at 2nd level.
3) Does this linear fighter/quadratic wizard trope hold true in 3.5, and is it as bad for all the other melee-based non-fighter classes?
Yeah :-\ For the first 5 levels the melee fighters have an advantage over the casters, because they've got the armor, the combat skills, and the HP to go into long fights. The wizard has to choose his spells carefully until he gets fireball... then it starts to even out. Finally by level 10, the fighter is outclassed by the wizard, and can't even compare by the time level 17 is hit.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 01:42:40
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Auspicious Skink Shaman
Louth, Ireland
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Ignore all of the above and play a cool character , rather than a bunch of optimised numbers on a sheet as indicated above
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 02:31:28
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Easier said than done.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 02:31:34
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Old Sourpuss
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Soteks Prophet wrote:Ignore all of the above and play a cool character , rather than a bunch of optimised numbers on a sheet as indicated above
*sigh* And what would be a cool character? It's not a matter of optimized numbers on a piece of paper, it's easily provable that fighter type characters get extremely outclassed at mid to later levels by magic users, especially Clerics, Wizards, and Druids. There is a reason why there is an entire tiered system designed for 3.5. Also, you cannot optimize as easily when you roll for your stats. Point Buy was so you could max your character's potential (like high STR, DEX, and CON for fighters, but non-existant INT, WIS, CHA). Rolling or choosing a spread minimizes the chances of optimization.
If the OP wishes to play a Paladin, I gave him reasons as to why he shouldn't, but also as to what he can do to help cut back on the limitations the class holds for him. 3.5 is extremely unbalanced with game breaking things being allowed in by the official WotC sourcebooks. Once the character has been generated, the coolness factor is up to the player. My best friend played a 1 armed wizard that specialized in force spells. The reasoning behind this? He rolled a 6 for one of his stats and put that in strength. He wasn't optimized, he had the (un)luck of the roll... That character had plenty of chances to regrow his limb and never did, because his character said it would feel unnatural, it's the in game things that make a character cool.
I'd say play Pathfinder if you can Seaward, as it fixes 90% of the balance issues that are found in 3.5 DnD, if not play with what you want to play with, and people here can help you with suggestions.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 07:28:03
Subject: Re:D&D 3.5 Advice
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Imperial Admiral
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It's definitely not my game - I'm just a replacement - so I doubt I could pull off getting them to switch to Pathfinder. That would require me learning the system, too, and I'm not that enthusiastic about playing.
My understanding is I'd pretty much be the only melee-focused PC in their campaign, if I went that route, so I probably will. I think I'd do Paladin/Fighter if I wasn't concerned about my interpretation of the Lawful Good alignment conflicting with everyone else's, so I may just do Fighter/Barbarian and hope for the best.
Man, melee guys really get screwed on skills, I noticed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 15:27:24
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Old Sourpuss
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Yeah, but that's generally because they don't need many of the skills. Often times you need either listen, search, or spot (sometimes 2 of the 3), and then w/e else you want, craft, profession, climb, etc...
Also Paladins cannot multiclass to fighter without giving up all of their Paladin class abilities :(. Just something to keep in mind.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 15:36:47
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Those are all non-class skills using off stat modifiers for both Fighter and Paladin. Have fun spending your 2 + Int skill points for half the effect. At least for the Paladin Listen and Spot use a tertiary stat, but still not that great. They are both pretty hosed on skills.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 17:15:34
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Old Sourpuss
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I like how you left out the important, "often times"
Yeah melee characters get screwed in the skills department, so do wizards.
Seaward just make what you want.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 18:20:04
Subject: Re:D&D 3.5 Advice
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Being lawful good means that you believe in order -- but not for its own sake. Rather, you believe that rules promote and protect fairness.
The Paladin comports her internal life to this ideal. She lives consciously, according to vows. In this respect, it is important to remember that alignment is not simply a point of view in D&D. It is an objective reality. Ordering her inner world toward goodness, she becomes a channel of that goodness into the world around her.
Being lawful good does NOT mean that you cannot abide disagreement and must control everyone else. This is the most basic mistake inexperienced and even some experienced players make. It results in such absurd metagame scenarios.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 18:37:27
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Imperial Admiral
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Alfndrate wrote:Also Paladins cannot multiclass to fighter without giving up all of their Paladin class abilities :(. Just something to keep in mind.
Whaaaaaaat.
I thought it depended upon the god followed.
Edit: feth it. Sticking to my roots.
Sea Ranger, booooooy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/01 19:01:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 19:51:42
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Old Sourpuss
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Yeah, there are a few specific classes that allow paladins to multiclass, but they're generally not very good...
D20 SRD.org wrote:A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
Nvm! It used to be this way that you lose all of your abilities, guess that was a changeover from 3rd to 3.5 sorry seaward.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 21:18:36
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Just a gentle reminder that the three important skills listed are, for all intents and purposes, quite barred from Paladin and Fighter. If you put a ton of feats and the like into improving them you may be on par with a Ranger who doesn't.
Alfndrate wrote:Yeah melee characters get screwed in the skills department, so do wizards.
I did forget that Wizards got the horrible 2+INT, but on the up side their primary stat is Int, so they will have a few points to play with. Int isn't even tertiary to Paladin or Fighter. That doesn't mean you can't play a high INT Fighter, which I have done, but usually it means CON, DEX, or WIS are going to take a hit, and they can have a greater impact typically.
Well yeah.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 21:23:21
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Imperial Admiral
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Ahtman wrote:Just a gentle reminder that the three important skills listed are, for all intents and purposes, quite barred from Paladin and Fighter. If you put a ton of feats and the like into improving them you may be on par with a Ranger who doesn't.
Ranger really is an attractive class; the skills are good, damage is there, it's useful out of combat, etc. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way, though. Might be my inability to link it with anything but Viggo Mortenson, might be its Nature Boy flavor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 08:25:30
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I never liked the grudge thing. It makes sense in LotR -- where the only thing you'd ever need to pick is orcs -- but not so much in D&D.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 14:37:23
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Manchu wrote:I never liked the grudge thing. It makes sense in LotR -- where the only thing you'd ever need to pick is orcs -- but not so much in D&D.
Especially with 3.5's stacking bonus. You need the bonus more at low levels, but when you hit higher levels do you really need +5 against Goblins or Orcs anymore? Does that +1 against dragons really matter?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 19:15:08
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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Soteks Prophet wrote:Ignore all of the above and play a cool character , rather than a bunch of optimised numbers on a sheet as indicated above
Does 3.5 even do this?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 19:17:00
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Old Sourpuss
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Breotan wrote: Soteks Prophet wrote:Ignore all of the above and play a cool character , rather than a bunch of optimised numbers on a sheet as indicated above
Does 3.5 even do this?
Optimised numbers on a sheet is basically the name of the game with 3.5. There are just too many ways to get a broken character in 3.5
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/04 03:14:26
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Beast Lord
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On the same token any encounter can be easily broken by "that" DM.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/05 15:14:18
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Old Sourpuss
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The Foot wrote:On the same token any encounter can be easily broken by "that" DM.
Of course, there is a bit of a social contract between the DM and the players to tell a story. The DM sets the tone of the game by telling his players what they can expect.
DM: "Alright, we'll be playing the Tomb of Horrors tonight."
Players: "Awesome, Tomb of Horrors sounds like there might be a lot of undead, we better be prepared."
30 minutes later
DM: "Well, I think we can wrap this up early as everyone has died miserably."
Players: "If we had known what to expect, we could have been better prepared."
That's an extreme example, but before I start a game I send out a campaign packet with what I expect of the players, and what I hope to do with the campaign. If say that there will be a lot of social encounters punctuated by some combat, I shouldn't expect to see wall flowers with burly beards and axes. I should expect to see maybe 1 such character and the rest playing as social butterflies with those types of skills maxed out.
The last DnD game (actual DnD, not Pathfinder) I played in was Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. The DM told us at the start that all monsters would have max HP, but so would we. He expected us to die. I brought in (with his permission) a full orc frenzied berserker that did a minimum of 20 damage with an attack to put out the damage needed to survive combat. Because I tried to level the playing field after my 3rd character death (I had lost a Cleric and a fighter already), the DM upped the ante and things became harder from there on out. It was just a game where no matter what we could do, the game would be as difficult as possible. It (thankfully) ended due to school ending and people graduating.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/05 20:35:34
Subject: Re:D&D 3.5 Advice
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Imperial Admiral
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I'm not terribly worried about the DM attempting to go after the party overly much. They started it more for the creativity exercise than any love of tabletop roleplaying, though apparently the latter's grown on them quite a bit. Nevertheless, it's still more roleplaying and less rollplaying.
The DM's surprisingly all about my "grim crusader of grimness" approach to the paladin, so that works out. Found a Forgotten Realms order that freely allows its paladins to multiclass as fighters, so the dude should actually be able to fight. Skills are going to suck, but at least he'll have decent saves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/06 19:05:37
Subject: Re:D&D 3.5 Advice
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Seaward wrote:They started it more for the creativity exercise than any love of tabletop roleplaying
Only in a thread about 3.5/ PF/4E could someone make this distinction ...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/07 04:31:35
Subject: Re:D&D 3.5 Advice
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Imperial Admiral
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Manchu wrote:Only in a thread about 3.5/ PF/4E could someone make this distinction ...
From what little I know of D&D, 3.5 does seem to be a combat-focused edition.
4E I have zero interest in, because feth paladins of neutrality.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/07 05:07:06
Subject: D&D 3.5 Advice
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Beast Lord
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3.5 just made sure that every thing you could do in combat had rules is what it mostly boils down to for me. There is plenty of stuff in the PHB that fosters good roleplaying. Same thing happened with 4th, they just made everything spelled out in the books. I don't think it's WOTC's fault that they aren't holding their players hands when it comes to roleplaying. I could be incredibly wrong on that statement though so if they said something otherwise ignore my crazed rambling.
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