Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Everything's backwards in 40k. Elysians fight with modern equipment and tactics so always get their buts kicked in the Grim Darkness or the 41st millenium. The most effective IG are the Death Korps of Krieg because they use ridiculously outdated WWI strategy.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Everything's backwards in 40k. Elysians fight with modern equipment and tactics so always get their buts kicked in the Grim Darkness or the 41st millenium. The most effective IG are the Death Korps of Krieg because they use ridiculously outdated WWI strategy.

Or it's the simple factor that the guys wearing cardboard armor and flashlights going deep behind enemy lines with limited support against gigantic angry fungi, world devouring bugs, and Light/Dark Space Elves are going to be outmatched 9/10 times.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Everything's backwards in 40k. Elysians fight with modern equipment and tactics so always get their buts kicked in the Grim Darkness or the 41st millenium. The most effective IG are the Death Korps of Krieg because they use ridiculously outdated WWI strategy.

Or it's the simple factor that the guys wearing cardboard armor and flashlights going deep behind enemy lines with limited support against gigantic angry fungi, world devouring bugs, and Light/Dark Space Elves are going to be outmatched 9/10 times.

You're not really disagreeing just elaborating.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Everything's backwards in 40k. Elysians fight with modern equipment and tactics so always get their buts kicked in the Grim Darkness or the 41st millenium. The most effective IG are the Death Korps of Krieg because they use ridiculously outdated WWI strategy.

Or it's the simple factor that the guys wearing cardboard armor and flashlights going deep behind enemy lines with limited support against gigantic angry fungi, world devouring bugs, and Light/Dark Space Elves are going to be outmatched 9/10 times.

You're not really disagreeing just elaborating.

I know?

I wasn't trying to disagree. The Elysians "always losing" irks me to no end but at the least I can understand why. Airborne operations have a very high margin of error and require extensive drilling on the part of not only the airborne elements but the ground elements as well. One major delay and the whole idea is kaput.

With IA8 the simple fact of the matter is that rather than having been deployed well as part of a defensive drop operation with full support, the Raven Guard and Elysians both were pressured into operating as an exchange for the Munitorum/Ecclesiarchy to deploy in such a way that it would protect the Raven Guard's interest. The fact that the Raven Guard got Elysians to work with was considered a kind of miracle in and of itself.

Yep, that's why it's just best to go back to horrible, years long trench warfare. It's not pretty but it gets the job done.

Kinda helps to have more cannons than the enemy has bullets, too, the basilisks crewmen in DoW 1 aren't shouting shatter their skies because they're fighting gauls, after all.

 Kanluwen wrote:
With IA8 the simple fact of the matter is that rather than having been deployed well as part of a defensive drop operation with full support, the Raven Guard and Elysians both were pressured into operating as an exchange for the Munitorum/Ecclesiarchy to deploy in such a way that it would protect the Raven Guard's interest. The fact that the Raven Guard got Elysians to work with was considered a kind of miracle in and of itself.

No, with IA8 the problem is that the operation should never have happened in the first place. They should have nuked the construction site from orbit and moved on to a planet that's actually worth saving. The only reason a battle happened at all is that FW didn't think it was necessary to spend any effort on making a sensible plot. The whole book feels like a rush job to meet a deadline, not a coherent story written by an intelligent author.

The biggest problem to me seems that the Elysians are being used as Space Marines instead of an Airborne/Air Assault force.

You see, an Airborne or Air Assault Force uses the speed and surprise of its arrival to allow lightly equipped forces to seize and hold important objectives. They then hold these objectives until relieved or extracted with the mission done. Their goal is to not have to wait too long of those because as soon as the enemy can work up a suitable counter attack, the Airmobile/Ar Assault types are generally toast.

In contrast, Space Marines do make use of speed and surprise in their arrival, but are much more heavily euipped, allowing them to go after far more heavily defended objectives. What's more, they aren't expected to hold until relieved, they are expected to keep on the offense and find and kill every last enemy they can with no more support than what they bring with them. They welcome the enemy's counter attack because it lets them kill more of the enemy.

It seem like the Imperial Commanders don't utilize the Elysians properly by sending them after far tougher targets than they are capable of dealing with and not making sure that they will be relieved or extracted in a timely manner. Imperial commanders appear to think that the Elysians will work like Marines and continue kicking the gak out of the enemy from the moment of the drop until the enemy is defeated.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
With IA8 the simple fact of the matter is that rather than having been deployed well as part of a defensive drop operation with full support, the Raven Guard and Elysians both were pressured into operating as an exchange for the Munitorum/Ecclesiarchy to deploy in such a way that it would protect the Raven Guard's interest. The fact that the Raven Guard got Elysians to work with was considered a kind of miracle in and of itself.

No, with IA8 the problem is that the operation should never have happened in the first place. They should have nuked the construction site from orbit and moved on to a planet that's actually worth saving. The only reason a battle happened at all is that FW didn't think it was necessary to spend any effort on making a sensible plot. The whole book feels like a rush job to meet a deadline, not a coherent story written by an intelligent author.

It was supposed to be a two part book, with the Orks on the offensive for the second book.

IIRC one of the main reason for the raid was to kill certain high value targets. They couldn't make sure they were dead unless they drew them out and took care of them personally.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Rarely do good stories involve the protagonists rolling face.

Its just not interesting.


So we never hear about when the Elysians dropped down, planted a bomb on a promethium refinery, and blew up half an Ork waaagh while taking only minor casualties.

This.

It's the reason why stories like Black Hawk Down and Bravo Two Zero are amongst the most popular and well-known, real life war stories. I.e. the ones that go horribly wrong and **** goes down. For each one of the above operations, there'll be dozens of others that won't see the light of day simply because military ops are designed to go off with minimal fuss, minimal casualites, and thus minimal drama. We want dat drama, baby.