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So some of you may have seen the other day I posted about help with a marine list to fight a Tyranid player. The advice was very helpful and I did indeed win. But not how I hoped. I went up against what I feel is a complete mismatch list that doesn't stand up to much and has a high amount of points wasted. So I am going to post the list I think he used and if anyone can post some advice on what he needs I would greatly appreciate it. We've tried to help him take better options but he won't listen and it's almost embarrassing how badly he loses sometimes. We don't want to make him a meta gamer but we just want him to have more of a chance rather than being tabled again and again.


HQ

Hive Tyrant - Heavy Venom Cannon, Thorax Swarm, Regeneration, Armoured Shell, Old Adversary. 305 pts

Hive Tyrant - Heavy Venom Cannon, Wings. 255 pts

Tyrant Guard x2 - Lash Whips Bone Sword. 160 pts

ELITES

Zoanthrope x2 - 120 pts

TROOPS

Genestealers x 14 + Broodlord - 242 pts

Hormagaunts x 28 - 168 pts

Hormagaunts x 28 - 168 pts

FAST ATTACK

Raveners x 3 - Devourers. 105 pts

HEAVY SUPPORT

Carnefex - Heavy Venom Cannon, Regeneration. 210 pts

Trygon - Regeneration, Prime. 265 pts

1998 pts

Like I said we've tried getting him to tweak things, hes played a lot of games now and yesterday was the first time we've actually managed to convince him to try out biomancy with his Tyranids. He doesn't have a Trygon because he says it doesn't fit in with his list. Which he claims is a 'Monster List'. But its far from the normal type of lists. Were not trying to force him to completely change the way he plays but were trying to open him up to new ideas rather than the same way of playing. We want him to learn that there's a time and place for each upgrade and wargear option. But we could use your help to convince him either by giving us more ideas to talk to him about or better arguments for units to see if he'll try out some. We want him to try proxying his Tyrannofex as a Tervigon but as of yet he won't listen even though the Tyrannofex he runs never managed anything in a game.

Thanks again guys for your help.

Quite honestly, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but his list is literally garbage from the top to bottom. Almost every choice he has in the list has no synergy with anything else on the list. If he wants to field a competitive list, and actually win some games, or even come close, his list needs a dramatic overhaul into the right direction. I'd recommend advising your friend with using the following as a base for building any Tyranid army that wants to win.

Flying Hive Tyrant
-Wings, 2x TL Devourers
Flying Hive Tyrant
-Wings 2x TL Devourers

This is the meat of the Tyranid offense. Effectively our only reliable anti aircraft in our codex as it stands. Play them defensively, roll on biomancy. Hope for iron arm, and endurance. Use them to shoot rear armor of enemy aircraft and/or target weaker infantry models that he can reliably kill without taking too much damage in return. On deployment, if you go second, hide them behind line of sight blocking terrain. Try to keep them in area terrain at all times for the free cover saves from AP3+ shooting, of which there is an abundance.

Elites

Doom of Malan'Tai
Ymgarl Genestealers
Zoanthropes
Hive Guard

That is your elite selection. Toss out the rest as they are a gimmicky bunch and don't generally hold their point values. Doom is almost an auto take, and spore is mandatory. For 130 points, he might be the most imbalanced unit in the whole game. He destroys xenos armies. Makes low leadership units cry, and you can get psychic shriek for free to give him two amazing abilities that just wreck low leadership armies. Beware of S8+ for instant death, and Doom has no comparison.

Ymgarl are great, but require tactical using. Zoeys are also a good choice, 3 in a pod, roll for biomancy for a force multiplier or go for base abilities for reliable tank busting with lance.

Hive guard are almost a good choice, but other times not. Perhaps just my local meta, but i havent played against an army that would benefit from them in a while.

Troops

Tervigons. Tervigons. Guess what else, tervigons? Yup. More of them. A T6 MC with 6 wounds that is a troop when 5/6 games are objective based? Yes please! These guys are the best troops in the entire codex, and 40k universe for that matter. Take them, their minimum squads of 10 gants per, and don't just hold objectives, own them. With psychic abilities, and abilities to make more gants, and improve them for free, it is a no brainer. Tervigons or go home.

Fast

Gargoyles. Some like them, some don't. But they are good at what they do. Cheap, reliable, and free screen for more important units. Take them is squads of at least 20 or don't take them at all.

Heavy Support

Biovores. Trygons. That is it. Take them, or go home. Biovores in 2 squads of 3 are amazing at killing from range. Which Nids sorely lack. They are amazing against anything with a 4+ armor.

Trygons. Even without prime upgrade they are spectacular. Run them as a pair of 2 or 3. They drop in, kill just about anything they want to, and keep on rolling. With biomancy powers giving them a FnP, they are incredible. Keep it out of synapse on purpose for free extra attacks.


Perhaps it is just how I feel about nids. Some people like more gimmicky models like warriors, genestealers, tyrannofex and whatnot. In my experience, they don't hold up to their points cost. Perhaps a carnifex with TL devourers. But outside of that, we have a very straight forward codex for what works and what doesn't. Net listing isn't needed with Nids. We have things that work, and things that don't. Use what works and reap the benefits.

If it's a monster army, then why are his troops not MCs (tervigons)?

Mike's got it mostly covered. But I can at least vouch for some other units.

I'm not an overly competitive Nid player, but I still like to win, but, especially with a new codex on the horizon, not enough to warrant me spending lots of money on units that I don't own. My usual list is as follows:

Flyrant w/ usual build

Doom in a Pod
Venomthrope
7 X Ymargls

14 x Devilgants (outflanking) or 3 x Warriors w/ Boneswords, Devs, TS
10 x Termagants
1 x Tervigon w/ usual build
24 x Hormagaunts w/ TS

10 x Gargoyles w/ TS + AG

Trygon w/ AG

So, that comes to 1500 in total.

It's not the most competitive Nid list, not by a long shot, but it does hold its own and makes use of some units that don't normally see use.

Let's start with the Venomthrope and Hormagaunts. Normally, I push forward with the Tervigon, who spills out a Termagant screen, with the Hormagaunts not far behind, and the Venomthrope giving everyone cover. Often my opponent focuses his fire on the Venomthrope and takes it out. That's no big deal, that's less shots going into my swarm and, if I need the cover, I can use my Gargoyles for that when they come on. The Hormagaunts do make a mess out of most things they charge, especially if I get clever with Synapse and let them charge in with Rage.

The Warriors, although I don't normally use them and normally opt for the Devilgants, are pretty useful, just as an extra bit of Synapse when I need it. They're also beastly in combat, which is nice. And, thanks to my Doom, the enemy's S8 firepower is often otherwise occupied, if it hasn't been taken out already.

With the Flyrant, Gargoyles, Doom and Ymargls (and Devilgaunts too if I runt them) hopefully amidst the enemy lines turn 2 and giving my opponent plenty to think about, my horde can close in and are overwhelmed by a swarm of little bugs.

Like I say, not the most competitive list, but something like this may give your friend the ability to play with some of the units he likes (he seems to like hormagaunts) while still being a challenge to face.

If your friend dropped the footslogging Tyrant and the Guard, changed the Flyrant to the usual build, changed one Zoanthrope to a Doom in a pod, split the stealers into two squads of seven ymargls, dropped the Raveners and Carnifex and stuck a Tervigon or two in with the points he'd saved, he'd have a half decent list.

 centuryslayer wrote:
If it's a monster army, then why are his troops not MCs (tervigons)?

He doesn't own any. He doesn't think they fit into hit list. My friend then asked him what his list was and he claimed it was a monster list. But we all know that its far from that. We've said to him for a while its a weird list simply because it doesn't do either the monster horde or endless swarm tactics at all. Like I said we want to give him pointers on how maybe he can make his list better but at the moment hes moving to get a Swarmlord and/or More carnefex which I think should be the last things he gets at the moment. He needs to get a list that works.

The last thing I want is for us to force him out of enjoying the game and ruin the hobby for him. But we want to give him a nudge in a direction that will mean the games are a lot funner and much less one sided.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mike94656 wrote:
Quite honestly, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but his list is literally garbage from the top to bottom. Almost every choice he has in the list has no synergy with anything else on the list. If he wants to field a competitive list, and actually win some games, or even come close, his list needs a dramatic overhaul into the right direction. I'd recommend advising your friend with using the following as a base for building any Tyranid army that wants to win.
in a while.

Perhaps it is just how I feel about nids. Some people like more gimmicky models like warriors, genestealers, tyrannofex and whatnot. In my experience, they don't hold up to their points cost. Perhaps a carnifex with TL devourers. But outside of that, we have a very straight forward codex for what works and what doesn't. Net listing isn't needed with Nids. We have things that work, and things that don't. Use what works and reap the benefits.

We've used a few of the same arguments and tried to get him to swap even small things but nothing seemed to be having any effect. You've said some good stuff though and I'll propose it to my friends and we'll think of a way we might be able to talk him into at least adapting a tactic or two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shadow wrote:


It's not the most competitive Nid list, not by a long shot, but it does hold its own and makes use of some units that don't normally see use.

Like I say, not the most competitive list, but something like this may give your friend the ability to play with some of the units he likes (he seems to like hormagaunts) while still being a challenge to face.

If your friend dropped the footslogging Tyrant and the Guard, changed the Flyrant to the usual build, changed one Zoanthrope to a Doom in a pod, split the stealers into two squads of seven ymargls, dropped the Raveners and Carnifex and stuck a Tervigon or two in with the points he'd saved, he'd have a half decent list.

When he used the Trygon against me I asked him if it was primed and he said yes. I asked him why and he didn't give me a response. He knows how I feel towards it. But it came in and killed My 5 sniper scouts before dying to missile and melta barrage from my land speeders. We wanted him to proxy his tyrannofex as a Tervigon just so it won't cost him any money but hes dead set against it which is a shame because its a unit the rest of us would like to see him at least try out. Like I said friday was the first time we have successfully talked him into taking biomancy powers but he only took it on his two hive tyrants. Which again is something if I played nids like a used too, would run them completely differently.

Like the others your comment is much appreciated and if nothing else its something for me to take in should I get back into nids at some point and I have been thinking about it. However the last thing I want at the moment is to come in with a list that dwarfs his and push him out of the hobby. So it's something we've gotta figure out how to approach.

Man, I hope Tyranids are the next codex out, maybe I'll start seeing something that ISN'T Mike's suggestion.

I'm not saying he's wrong, but I haven't seen anything different in a Tyranid list in a stupidly long time.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Man, I hope Tyranids are the next codex out, maybe I'll start seeing something that ISN'T Mike's suggestion.

I'm not saying he's wrong, but I haven't seen anything different in a Tyranid list in a stupidly long time.

If I was gunna get another Tyranid army I wanted a ripper list. Wouldn't be competitive in the slightest but I would have had a lot of fun with it.

Although it's nowhere near a competitive list, have you considered that your mate likes the list he's playing with? I dont know about anyone else but I think the current meta and cookie-cutter or lose style with tyranids sucks. Theyre definately the least fluffy army out there at the moment, and the sooner their re-release arrives the better, according to rumours there's only a month till the new book comes out, so maybe let your mate play with what he wants if he's happy with it and see where the new books takes it, I would imagine those gaunts suddenly become a lot better or cheaper, and may gain something like the old without number rules into the bargain, aswell as foot tyrants, carnifexes, and tyrant guard becoming a bit more viable.

I don't mean to come across as harsh but you sound like you and you're friends are going to run an intervention for an alcoholic.

If he won't listen to advice no matter how many times you have suggested things, no matter how many times he loses, there is probably a reason for that - he enjoys playing his list. He likes its feel, he likes how it fits with his interpretation of the fluff.

If you really want to change his mind about certain units, don't have a backroom clandestine meeting with your friends, worrying about how you will broach the subject without hurting his feelings. Instead give him banter, use phrases such as "im so glad you took that, id hate to face *****". He might not listen to straight face to face advice so print off Mikes advice and throw it across the table next time you play, stating "I was looking through forums the other day and saw some advice I thought you might appreciate" then say nothing more of it and let him look over it in his own time.

But most importantly remember its HIS list, not yours and your friends to mold how you want. Some people play for the fun and not for the win. I personally like the win as well and would go for something like Mike suggests. But not everyone is an ultra competitive player. Your friend might tweak his army so it becomes more competitive. He might tweak it so it has more units that he likes (even if these are pyrovores), he may even end up stumbling across an awsome build that no one has thought of yet. But if he won't listen to advice then allow him to build a list he likes playing with rather than a list that shares almost exactly the same traits as 90% of the other nid lists out there.

He doesn't need an intervention.

Maybe all of us competitive players out there can learn something from those 'for fun' players who get tabled every other match yet enjoy it as much as our greatest victories. Next time you see a totally "for fun" player taking on an ultra competitive player, watch their faces and see who smiles more. Then remember its a game and a hobby. And finally ask yourself "who's really playing it right?"

I know what you mean and I do want him to still enjoy the hobby but he doesn't enjoy losing and especially not the way he has lost in the past. Tyranids do in general have a poor codex and what I was hoping from this thread was not a way to completely over-hall his list of change the way he plays I was hoping to see ideas that would be minor changes that he would benefit from which I have seen a couple of and will talk to him about them next time I see them.

I know that the way I have put this thread across makes me sound like a **** and I don't want it to be that way. I know we can't force him to do anything and after posting this thread I do feel like the bad guy I will admit. I didn't have that as the intention when I wanted to post this.

Well if he doesn't like losing thats a different matter and i take it back. I dont understand why he wont listen to advice then. Maybe still try the approach i said in my 3rd paragraph. It might work. Probably wont if he hasnt listened to anything yet.
Its good that your trying to help him if he doesnt like losing and its good that your starting off small things first as this will be easier to convince him about. Having reread your comments now youve said he doesnt enjoy losing it almost sounds like he has a 'horder' syndrome concerning his list.

I am sorry I didn't put across my comments properly after rereading myself what I put in each comment I phrased things badly, I do this a lot. I know what it means to enjoy the hobby as although I play both Space Marines and Necrons (It's difficult to do bad with either really) I do like to play around with what I use. I don't agree with the reliance on flyers and two of my favorite units are the Whirlwind and Land Speeders which from what I've seen aren't taken very often competitively. But I am a player that experiments with each and every game trying to find new combinations and balances.

At the moment he can't wait for the Tyranid Codex (Rumoured November) but just in case it takes longer than that and for the meantime we were hoping he'd try new stuff. Like I said we only just got him to try biomancy, he has complained for a while with the lack on invuls in the codex and biomancy in our eyes is the only way to slightly fix the issues he has but it hasn't sunk in properly what we've been saying.

Everyone has different ways of playing and I don't wanna take his away from him by making him into a meta gamer. But my best games have been close cut narrow wins or losses. As fun as it is at the time to wipe someone only losing a fraction of your army I look back on it and think "well actually it wasn't that fun, there was no excitement." Which is what we want to give him back

Much better put ;-).

This same thing happened with my friend. He didnt like the competitive nids lists but still insisted in using his weak armies and getting beat all the time. So what i did was built really good lists with my ig army and crushed him. Tables him when i could. Eventually he decided to try something new and guess what its actually worked. Hea got better lists that win now that he uses flyrants and tervigons.

But basically its like a child when they dont like some kinda food and they are dead set and say they dont like it. You just have to keep forcing it towards them and eventually they will try it.

So my advice(dont have to take it) would be to just obliterate your friends army. If he claims its just a fluffy fun list he has the. Go ahead and play a fluffy fun list against him. But if you want to play an army that wins then play an army that wins. It sucks dealing with people that dont change their mind sets but those people will always be out there.

I win almost every game I play and no gaunts or tervigons are in my lists at all.

Its not about shie horning tervigons into a list to make it competative. There are other ways that are more fun.

His list needs work, its all over the place. At least tell him to get some venomthropes so the masses of horms dont die turn onen

A couple of small tweaks that can improve his list:

Hormagaunts, you never, EVER take these without toxin sacs. That's rule number one with hormagaunts. See if he'd be willing to drop the broods down to 21 with toxin sacs, the value you get from them is to big to ignore. Wounding anything on a 4+ and rerolling vs weaker units is so huge. Also as stated before, he should get some venomthropes to give them some cover,. See if he'd be willing to try proxying his zoanthropes as venomthropes just to try it out. Another option is the have his Hive tyrant and guards walk infront, soaking up all the fire.

Raveners, I love your friend for playing these, they are imo one of the coolest units in WH40k, but in their current format they lack a few things (like toxin sacs and adrenal glands). 6th ed gave them a great new weapon in the form of rage thought, and not using this is in combination with the fact that they are unit type: Beast is a mistake. He should try rending claws instead of devoures, and depending on how much terrain you're using either hold them back for a counter charge, or sneak them up the field and overwhelm enemy squads out of position, they are meant to get into CC. Adding one or two additional raveners to the squad isn't a bad idea either since they lack in survivability. Deep striking them is almost always a bad idea.

Trygon, this guy should have toxin sacs aswell. Two sets of scything talons and poison attack mean that he rerolls all to hit and all to wound vs almost any infantry unit he faces. That's a bargin for 10 points. Dropping regeneration will free up some points too, since if the enemy starts shooting at the trygon, he'll most likley try to focus it down in one turn. Deep striking the trygon alone is generally a bad idea. I usually deep strike it in tandem with a mawloc, just to disrupt the field as much as possible as well as drawing some fire.

Genestealers, again, TOXIN SACS. But I think he'd be much better of running them as ymgral genestealers as was suggested before


One of the main problem his list has is that it focus to much on range combat when he can't really put out that many shoots. Heavy venom cannons can be great but that's only 3 shoots/turn that can maybe take out a tank or two if he's lucky. He needs to focus more on getting up close and into close combat. Hope this helps alittle, I'm not really for the cookie cutter builds either, I'd rather make what I have work as well as it can, but sometimes you may have to relent and just buy a tervigon or two =/