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 Super Ready wrote:
Grav guns are going to be very much like plasma in terms of effectiveness against TEQ. No Gets Hot! is a bonus to the owning player, but of little consequence to you because that 1 was a miss anyway. If you're building a TAC list, you're not giving everyone plasma already anyway, so you're not about to drop it all in favour of gravs - that'd leave you woefully short on flamers for mobs and melta for vehicles. Instead you're probably going to just drop one or two in.

On the other hand, if you know you're facing a MEQ/TEQ player, and you're inclined to list build as a result, you're already taking plasma and the requisite power weapons. So there's not going to be THAT much difference.

Short version - it's a nice addition that seems scary at first but shouldn't actually upset the meta much.

Problem, Grav Guns and Grav Cannons get off *much* more hits, and on Centurions they get to reroll that 2 to wound.

Statistically, you'd need like a full unit of Hammernators or Paladins (apothecaries help a lot) just to survive one round of shooting from a full unit of Centurions with their rumored stats. And even then the sheer amount of damage taken is going to be crippling.

I don't see where taking grav weapons would be better than plasma besides maybe an Iron Armed MC.

As a DW player, I fear them equally.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
I don't see where taking grav weapons would be better than plasma besides maybe an Iron Armed MC.

As a DW player, I fear them equally.

They combine weight of fire and ignoring your saves and toughness. The two traditional weaknesses of TEQs.

Grav-cannons in particular, as far as I'm aware, only come on an 80 point model that no player outside of a specifically tailored list is going to have more than 3 of. It shouldn't prove too tricky to arrange something to take them on - they're still not going to be 100% effective against storm shields, which seems to be all anyone takes on vanilla or BA Termies these days, though admittedly they'll do more damage than plasma there.

DW in particular can deep-strike in a plasma cannon with Vengeful Strike with a squad that will put out just about enough firepower to put those second wounds on, or Deathwing Knights that can weather a turn of fire then charge. Space Wolves are typically taking combi-plasma these days so they can deep-strike on top of them as well. I'd think that Paladins would actually have a worse time with the unit except for good ol' Draigo's storm shield, but they're still a very real threat with the rest of the army around to complement them.

Simply holding the Termies in reserve giving the rest of your army a turn or two to damage the Centurions may prove worthwhile, too, though that's just an idea so far and not one I would consider foolproof before seeing it working in action.

What's the range on grav-guns...? I would think that it's going to mean one more shot than a plasma gun at most, in units that only get one special weapon anyway. Still not massively different.

I think its something similar to the bolter family. 12" for pistol, 24" for the gun, and 36" for the cannon.

 Kain wrote:
Grav guns look like they're going to slap TEQ spam lists into oblivion. Holy crap are those guns gonna hurt.

I don't think so. Not anymore than melta weapons hurt.

Only the Centurions can take them in any quantity IIRC. Everyone else is really limited to what a squad can normally take for special weapons.

And they are a little too corner case to be spammed. They rely on the opponent having good armor and they are not super useful against vehicles(if the current rumor is true) I'd rather take a meltagun.


I might take one Centurion with a Grav setup, but nobody else will have gravity weaponry. A melta weapon will be more useful against vehicles while still wounding most stuff on 2+ with no armor allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
I don't see where taking grav weapons would be better than plasma besides maybe an Iron Armed MC.

As a DW player, I fear them equally.

They combine weight of fire and ignoring your saves and toughness. The two traditional weaknesses of TEQs.

So a squad tailored to kill TEQs, and only TEQs, is killing my TEQs...

Really, a Centurion squad with only Grav weaponry would only be good at killing models with good armor saves. Its not going to hurt against vehicles or models with 4+ or worse saves.


Yes, they counter TEQ spam, but nobody is going to take that loadout because its too many points for such a specific thing.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
In short - you probably can't, there will almost always be better choices for your points.

That's the sad truth. I still use them here and there because I am not super competitive, but I like making good lists enough that it is hard for me to include them. SW at least let you mix them with PA guys.

 Kain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
I don't see where taking grav weapons would be better than plasma besides maybe an Iron Armed MC.

As a DW player, I fear them equally.

They combine weight of fire and ignoring your saves and toughness. The two traditional weaknesses of TEQs.

Plasma guns were already firing 2 shots (when mobile) and ignoring my saves and toughness, but can also threaten light vehicles.
What is the range on the grav guns?

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
I don't see where taking grav weapons would be better than plasma besides maybe an Iron Armed MC.

As a DW player, I fear them equally.

They combine weight of fire and ignoring your saves and toughness. The two traditional weaknesses of TEQs.

Plasma guns were already firing 2 shots (when mobile) and ignoring my saves and toughness, but can also threaten light vehicles.
What is the range on the grav guns?

18 for three shot range, 24' for the five shot cannon. And call me crazy, but five shots strikes me as way better than a small blast.

Not like anyone was taking plasma cannons on Devs though.

 Kain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
I don't see where taking grav weapons would be better than plasma besides maybe an Iron Armed MC.

As a DW player, I fear them equally.

They combine weight of fire and ignoring your saves and toughness. The two traditional weaknesses of TEQs.

Plasma guns were already firing 2 shots (when mobile) and ignoring my saves and toughness, but can also threaten light vehicles.
What is the range on the grav guns?

18 for three shot range, 24' for the five shot cannon. And call me crazy, but five shots strikes me as way better than a small blast.

Not like anyone was taking plasma cannons on Devs though.

Can tac squads take the cannon? Otherwise I believe they will only 3 shots (which will still cripple a termie squad).

 Kain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
I don't see where taking grav weapons would be better than plasma besides maybe an Iron Armed MC.

As a DW player, I fear them equally.

They combine weight of fire and ignoring your saves and toughness. The two traditional weaknesses of TEQs.

Plasma guns were already firing 2 shots (when mobile) and ignoring my saves and toughness, but can also threaten light vehicles.
What is the range on the grav guns?

18 for three shot range, 24' for the five shot cannon. And call me crazy, but five shots strikes me as way better than a small blast.

Not like anyone was taking plasma cannons on Devs though.

Even if thats true, its still not much worse for Terminators.


Plasma in Rapid Fire range does roughly .74 wounds to a terminator.

Assuming 3 shots at 18": Grav weapon does 1.111 wounds. Only roughly a third of a wound more.

Depending on how the cost works out, the plasma may still be more efficient on a point basis.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
I don't see where taking grav weapons would be better than plasma besides maybe an Iron Armed MC.

As a DW player, I fear them equally.

They combine weight of fire and ignoring your saves and toughness. The two traditional weaknesses of TEQs.

Plasma guns were already firing 2 shots (when mobile) and ignoring my saves and toughness, but can also threaten light vehicles.
What is the range on the grav guns?

18 for three shot range, 24' for the five shot cannon. And call me crazy, but five shots strikes me as way better than a small blast.

Not like anyone was taking plasma cannons on Devs though.

Can tac squads take the cannon? Otherwise I believe they will only 3 shots (which will still cripple a termie squad).

Tac squads get the gun.

Cannons are for Centurions and Dev squads.

Note that Centurions get to reroll wounds which means they still hurt like hell even if you only have a 4+. And hell I wouldn't want to get shot at them even with 5+ units (still a 4/9 chance of wounding), while 6+ units have a 25/36 chance of saving. So still nearly one out of three.

If Centurions are indeed relentless and Grav cents are 80 ppm, then they should fit nicely into a TAC list due to the volume of fire that can threaten just about anything and is pretty much the bane of expensive elite units.

Convert the Termi's into Obliterators.

Then collect winnings ^^

terminators are awful in this edition. Eldar and Tau absolutely wreck them. And those are the top 2 armies in the game. The new SM codex will only make it worse as the termies will go up in cost and the firepower of the codex will increase. And grav guns aren't too shabby at anti-TEQ either.

Keep the termies on your shelf until GW decides to appropriately cost them.

Yeah, I have to agree. You pretty much leave them on the shelf.

 Super Ready wrote:

Short version - it's a nice addition that seems scary at first but shouldn't actually upset the meta much.

Yeah I second this. Grav guns are certainly more effective vs terminators than plasma guns (at least within 18 range). However they are less versatile so will not come up in as many TAC lists as plasma.
Grav guns are not needed to put down terminators, or will they change the playing field for terminators in 6th, as terminators already have so many counters that come in the same form.

Or Orks. We have no shooting lower than AP4

If you are playing orks or tyrannids why are you trying to shoot terminators? You can just drown them with boyz or gaunts. You get 7 ork boyz for 1 terminator. 2 attacks vs a minimum of 14, a possible 21 if they have sluggas..

Anyone who thinks Grav guns wont be heavily used apparently has not played vs Tyranids, Daemon FMCs, Wraithknights or Riptides. Grav guns are far more useful vs the new MCs that are popping up. ESP, the WK and Riptide.

 LValx wrote:
Anyone who thinks Grav guns wont be heavily used apparently has not played vs Tyranids, Daemon FMCs, Wraithknights or Riptides. Grav guns are far more useful vs the new MCs that are popping up. ESP, the WK and Riptide.

Nobody has said that grav guns will not be used, heavily or otherwise depending on the meta. The point I made is that terminators will not be noticeably effected by the transfer to grav weapons, as plasma and other ap2 weapons are already prevalent in most armies. Sure they will be effective vs terminators, but plasma already does the job just as efficiently.

Heavy thread jack still, the OP was about how to use terminators effectively.

 LValx wrote:
Anyone who thinks Grav guns wont be heavily used apparently has not played vs Tyranids, Daemon FMCs, Wraithknights or Riptides. Grav guns are far more useful vs the new MCs that are popping up. ESP, the WK and Riptide.

They will be used, just not heavily.

I'd never take more than one or two Centurions with the grav weapon loadout. No Tac squads or characters with them. I don't need to sprinkle them through my entire army because they are a very narrow weapon. Only good at taking out things with good armor, while not being very good against vehicles. The problem is a Meltagun can do almost the same thing while also being an anti-tank weapon.

You aren't going to see good armies with more than three or four grav weapons. They're simply too specialized.

 Grey Templar wrote:
...not being very good against vehicles...

They are. A unit of three centurions with the amps will wreck any non-flying vehicle in standard 40k.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
...not being very good against vehicles...

They are. A unit of three centurions with the amps will wreck any non-flying vehicle in standard 40k.

Sure, but they cost as much as a Landraider and have only a 24" range. That's not a cost effective way of killing vehicles. Especially with the short range. I'd rather have twin-linked lascannons I can start shooting on turn 1 along with krak missiles if I want to kill vehicles.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
...not being very good against vehicles...

They are. A unit of three centurions with the amps will wreck any non-flying vehicle in standard 40k.

Sure, but they cost as much as a Landraider and have only a 24" range. That's not a cost effective way of killing vehicles. Especially with the short range. I'd rather have twin-linked lascannons I can start shooting on turn 1 along with krak missiles if I want to kill vehicles.

It is cost effective if the vehicle in question is a land raider...

Anyway I would use 3 bikes with 2 grav guns + combi grav. These guys have decent chances at taking out vehicles effectively.

So here's the basic problem with terminators from my view:
They are twice as durable as a space marine against small arms.
They are 1.5 times as durable as a space marine against AP2.
They have twice the shooting of a space marine at range.
They have twice the base attacks of a space marine.
They can deep strike.
They don't score.
They can't sweeping advance.
They have very limited and overcosted options.
They cost 3 times as much as a space marine.

And it's the last one that's a killer. Sure, you can take 10 for 400 points but... why would you? That same 400 buys you 2 full decked out tactical squads, which can not only score but also have special weapons, more shooting up close and can split into 4 squads. Sure, terminators do more in combat but who cares when they've got no reliable way to get INTO combat? Even then, is that any better than just shooting where the enemy can't hit before you even strike? Frankly, I wouldn't even take them as troops at 40+ points, let alone in a slot that never scores puts them in competition with Sternguard. Heck, look at Chaos terminators; few people run them, almost no-one competitively and they're way cheaper. I'm not even sure I'd take them at 25 points per head as even then they want to be in combat, don't score and have no way to get into combat effectively. Their weapon options are too pricey as well - when past 2nd edition did you last see anyone take an assault cannon terminator other than because the model is cool? I dunno, GW seems to think terminators are fine as is but they're just too many points for not enough. Let me put it in perspective as to what they compete with: Wraiths are as durable as hammernators VS S7 or less, more durable VS AP2, have more attacks, are jump infantry, higher effective initiative, ignore terrain when moving and cost 10 points less per model now. They also can get a D Lord to give them all PE. They trade only 2 str, 2 I (which makes no difference as hammers are unwieldy) and AP2, but get rending. There's just no competition whatsoever. It makes me sad because they're my favourite SM models, but that's the way it is.