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Over the weekend I had the idea of a Paladin bomb. I have played against Paladins before and they are tough bastards to bring down. I think an entire centred around them would be extremely tough!

Grey Knights 'Paladin Bomb' - 2,000 points

HQ

Grand Master Mordrak
4 x Ghost Knights - 2 x nemesis halberds
Librarian - teleporter homer, warp rift, prescience & master crafted

Elites

10 x Paladins - apothecary, 4 x psycannons, 3 x nemesis halberds, 2 x nemesis daemon hammers, nemesis warding stave & brotherhood banner

Troops

5 x Strike Knights - psycannon
5 x Strike Knights - psycannon

Heavy Support

Nemesis Dreadknight - heavy incinerator & personal teleporter
Nemesis Dreadknight - heavy incinerator & personal teleporter


Total: 1,980

Originally I had the idea of using a Grand Master, those psychobroke grenades are a temptation! I then changed to Dragio as he can make the Paladins troops, though I guess that doesn't matter too much thanks to grand strategy. In the end I opted for Mordrak; Mordrak can deep strike first turn and will help my battle plans muchly.

Mordrak and his two buddies will drop down turn one. They will deep strike into terrain to get cover, using shrouding from the Ghost Knights this will give them at least a 4+ cover save and if they come under heavy fire they can to ground and get a 2+ cover save (going to ground in terrain gives +2 cover save). I'll pop Mordrak into harm's way so to speak, he can take a wound or two and hopefully spawn some free Ghost Knights. If anything serious comes his way them it is look out, sir time.

Mordrak is a grand master in case you forgot and has the grand strategy ability, I'll use this to make the Dreadknights and Paladins scoring, of course rolling depending. He also has psychic communion, so chances of getting the Paladins to come in second turn are strong - the longer the Paladins are in reserve then they longer they do not get to do their job and the easier it is for this list to be beaten. Plus having half the points of the army in reserve is not cool!

The Libby will join the Paladins. He will be the warlord as Mordrak can be killed pretty easily if you torrent his unit. At least the Libby has 20 wounds with 2+ save and feel no pain to get through! The Libby's job is to use the shrouding power (gives stealth) and sanctuary (causes terrain and dangerous terrain tests for enemy assaulting units) to protect the Paladins. The Libby also adds some servo skulls to the party, these will be useful for when the Paladins come down, providing they are still around.

The Paladins are the super massive deathstar unit in this army. Their job is to destroy everything and they have all the tools for the job; 16 psycannon shots, hammers, halberds, staves to laugh in close combat, feel no pain and auto force weapons from the banner plus an extra attack.

Strike Squads just camp behind the ADL, one unit will hold the quad gun while the others will lay down some psycannon fire. If objectives are placed carefully then they can be placed behind the ADL and you can have two objectives before the game starts.

Dreadknights will support the Ghost Knights when they come in, both of them will bounce up 12" or use the super movement and unleash hell with the super flamers. I did originally consider swords, but they should hit mostly on a 3+, wound on a 2+ mostly and when using smash attacks will re-roll to penetrate vehicles anyway.

Tactics

This list will have to be used very carefully. The ADL should be placed centre of the deployment zone with any objectives behind it. The Strike Squads then will have decent range with their psycannons.

Servo skulls can be spread out, this will make the opponent work to getting those skulls and allow you to have back ups in case any run away.

Ideally the list needs to attack a single flank, if it spreads out it will soon be destroyed. It would be nice if the skulls were close together, but a few enemy units could make them all run away pretty damn easily.

Mordrak and his ho's will drop down on a flank in terrain - use terrain stacked with shrouding from the Ghost Knights to give extra cover save bonus. Use Mordrak to take a few wounds, hopefully will get some Ghost Knights for free, but anything which can instagib pass to a Ghost Knight. If coming under serious fire then go to ground, but really you want them up and running so they can mash into cheap camping units.

Paladins will come down second turn though won't be assaulting anything until turn 3. They can bring some psycannons to the party and should be placed so they get into weaker side or rear armour of vehicles. 16 x S7 shots should bring down majority of vehicles. Just pick your targets correctly.

Dreadknights will be up there supporting the Ghost Knights. Their job is to tackle hordes to stop the Ghost Knights becoming bogged down. They can also instagib characters with force or smash attacks and tackle vehicles too. I suspect they will be giant bullet magnets and more than likely will attract a ton of heat, though at least with a 2+ save and 5+ invulnerable with T6 and 4 wounds they can take it.

Nothing for the Paladin bomb?

I am thinking an Inquisitor maybe better choice instead of the Libby and take prescience for re-roll to hit action.

First off I thought Ghost Knights had Stealth not Shrouded. Secondly Draigo also has psychic communion.

The most common loadout is 10 tooled up paladins, Draigo + Coteaz, Coteaz means you can get 2 buffs from presience (though you can do the same with a librarian). As it is with your paladin + librarian is you are simply making it more difficult to assault them) and without presience you are very much depending on the dice, and you can't deal with fliers (where as with prescience you could through RoF). Without draigo you have no means of tanking Str8+ shots. Also to maximise stealth you will want to be in cover which will slow you and down and your opponent can simply avoid the large group of paladins.

Not to mention Riptides would love you to deep-strike in a nice clustered formation in front of their intercepting Str8 ap2 large blast shot.

Actually i think your librarian would be better with a teleport homer and go with Mordrak.
This way you can tp the paladins without scater if you stay close to Mordrak (which you should).

I mainly agree with CaptainJay on the use of Draigo but here i think it is a bit different from classic Draigowing as you will arrive so close to the enemy you will arrive turn 2 and charge turn 3 hopefully (thus only one turn of ennemy fire on you unlike a classic Draigowing).

I am not sure i would keep the Librarian using GK powers in this list however, maybe divination instead (so he can replace the classic Coteaz) as you should already be quite tough to handle thus should increase damage potential.

CaptainJay wrote:First off I thought Ghost Knights had Stealth not Shrouded. Secondly Draigo also has psychic communion.

The most common loadout is 10 tooled up paladins, Draigo + Coteaz, Coteaz means you can get 2 buffs from presience (though you can do the same with a librarian). As it is with your paladin + librarian is you are simply making it more difficult to assault them) and without presience you are very much depending on the dice, and you can't deal with fliers (where as with prescience you could through RoF). Without draigo you have no means of tanking Str8+ shots. Also to maximise stealth you will want to be in cover which will slow you and down and your opponent can simply avoid the large group of paladins.

Not to mention Riptides would love you to deep-strike in a nice clustered formation in front of their intercepting Str8 ap2 large blast shot.

It is stealth, their rule is called shrouded though.

Getting Dragio just for T5 is a lot of points, though does make Paladins scoring. It is something I'll have to consider. Though Coteaz won't work as he cannot deep strike.

There's a quad gun to deal with fliers...

I wouldn't deep strike in front of Riptides either.

sleekid wrote:Actually i think your librarian would be better with a teleport homer and go with Mordrak.
This way you can tp the paladins without scater if you stay close to Mordrak (which you should).

I mainly agree with CaptainJay on the use of Draigo but here i think it is a bit different from classic Draigowing as you will arrive so close to the enemy you will arrive turn 2 and charge turn 3 hopefully (thus only one turn of ennemy fire on you unlike a classic Draigowing).

I am not sure i would keep the Librarian using GK powers in this list however, maybe divination instead (so he can replace the classic Coteaz) as you should already be quite tough to handle thus should increase damage potential.

I have considered that option with the Libby too. Would mean the unit can take more of a punch, survive longer and when the Paladins come down they won't scatter at all.

You're right about divinination too. I wasn't aware the Libby could switch them, prescience it is!

 mercer wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:First off I thought Ghost Knights had Stealth not Shrouded. Secondly Draigo also has psychic communion.

The most common loadout is 10 tooled up paladins, Draigo + Coteaz, Coteaz means you can get 2 buffs from presience (though you can do the same with a librarian). As it is with your paladin + librarian is you are simply making it more difficult to assault them) and without presience you are very much depending on the dice, and you can't deal with fliers (where as with prescience you could through RoF). Without draigo you have no means of tanking Str8+ shots. Also to maximise stealth you will want to be in cover which will slow you and down and your opponent can simply avoid the large group of paladins.

Not to mention Riptides would love you to deep-strike in a nice clustered formation in front of their intercepting Str8 ap2 large blast shot.

It is stealth, their rule is called shrouded though.

Getting Dragio just for T5 is a lot of points, though does make Paladins scoring. It is something I'll have to consider. Though Coteaz won't work as he cannot deep strike.

There's a quad gun to deal with fliers...

I wouldn't deep strike in front of Riptides either.

It's T5, 3++, paladins as troops + d3 other scoring units, etc, etc.
I would probably never deep-strike the paladins as that's 800 odd points of your army in reserve, which is just begging for something to go wrong. As for not deep-striking in their LOS, they have pretty much total board coverage (in terms of range) and it runs counter to the 'strategy' you've proposed of getting in their face. Draigo/Coteaz/Paladins start on the board (spread out to avoid blasts) pick a spot/objective to claim/contest and provide a 24" no go zone.
You've posted a 2k list, 1 quad gun is not going to handle the 3/4 fliers/FMCs that you can expect to see in other armies.

And for Draigo do not forget that he is eternal warrior so he can tank the S8 High HP rounds easily with his 3+ and FnP...

CaptainJay wrote:

It's T5, 3++, paladins as troops + d3 other scoring units, etc, etc.
I would probably never deep-strike the paladins as that's 800 odd points of your army in reserve, which is just begging for something to go wrong. As for not deep-striking in their LOS, they have pretty much total board coverage (in terms of range) and it runs counter to the 'strategy' you've proposed of getting in their face. Draigo/Coteaz/Paladins start on the board (spread out to avoid blasts) pick a spot/objective to claim/contest and provide a 24" no go zone.
You've posted a 2k list, 1 quad gun is not going to handle the 3/4 fliers/FMCs that you can expect to see in other armies.

I did originally consider Dragio for that reason and of course I can split Paladins up to have more troop units. The reason I went for Mordrak was so I could get the Paladins down first turn. Deep striking them is a risk, though if on foot they won't be in assault until turn 3 and the goes for deep strike too. Plus they are getting shot at less as well. With a teleporter homer on the Libby the chances of them mishaping and not coming in on time should be slim.

I can deep strike out of LOS, to use interceptor you still need LOS.

I really don't like the idea of having 800 points just going slow over the table, it's not going to work well.

The average number of flyers is 2-3, the number you mentioned is the extreme and is themed lists such as Chaos Daemons flying circus. The only other options GK have for skyfire is Stormraven, which is too expensive or ally some Tau in, though that's not going to work to what I want. I have considered switching the Libby's powers to divination and taking prescience, it will help against fliers and allow the Paladins to re-roll to hit in close combat.

sleekid wrote:And for Draigo do not forget that he is eternal warrior so he can tank the S8 High HP rounds easily with his 3+ and FnP...

Dragio can take S8 shots anyway as he is T5. Dragio doesn't have feel no pain though.

he gets FnP from the paladins and their apothecary.
So he is a T5 Eternal warrior with a 2+/3++ and FnP with 4 wounds....
Any small fire goes to the paladins, heavy fire goes to him (if well placed)

Yes, you're right about the Apothecary. I thought you meant he can tank S8 wounds purely because of eternal warrior.

 mercer wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:

It's T5, 3++, paladins as troops + d3 other scoring units, etc, etc.
I would probably never deep-strike the paladins as that's 800 odd points of your army in reserve, which is just begging for something to go wrong. As for not deep-striking in their LOS, they have pretty much total board coverage (in terms of range) and it runs counter to the 'strategy' you've proposed of getting in their face. Draigo/Coteaz/Paladins start on the board (spread out to avoid blasts) pick a spot/objective to claim/contest and provide a 24" no go zone.
You've posted a 2k list, 1 quad gun is not going to handle the 3/4 fliers/FMCs that you can expect to see in other armies.

I did originally consider Dragio for that reason and of course I can split Paladins up to have more troop units. The reason I went for Mordrak was so I could get the Paladins down first turn. Deep striking them is a risk, though if on foot they won't be in assault until turn 3 and the goes for deep strike too. Plus they are getting shot at less as well. With a teleporter homer on the Libby the chances of them mishaping and not coming in on time should be slim.

I can deep strike out of LOS, to use interceptor you still need LOS.

I really don't like the idea of having 800 points just going slow over the table, it's not going to work well.

The average number of flyers is 2-3, the number you mentioned is the extreme and is themed lists such as Chaos Daemons flying circus. The only other options GK have for skyfire is Stormraven, which is too expensive or ally some Tau in, though that's not going to work to what I want. I have considered switching the Libby's powers to divination and taking prescience, it will help against fliers and allow the Paladins to re-roll to hit in close combat.

And how exactly does Mordrak allow you to get the paladins in first turn?
Also running the libby (warlord) with mordrak defeats your logic about the libby being the warlord as he's less likely to get shot. The paladins work by area denial, by deep-striking them you're allowing your opponent to focus on the rest of your not exactly over-whelming army. Yes you can deep-strike out of LOS however given how mobile riptides are that could be more difficult than you think, not to mention them ending up out of place and frankly doing a better job by threatening/scaring your opponent into reacting to them.

Riptides are only one proposed counter, there's also warp quake, and anything else with interceptor/anti deep-striking unit.

It's not uncommon for 1650/1750pt lists to have 4 night scythes or 3/4 vendettas in. A single quad gun is going to do sweet fa to a storm raven, vendetta or hell-drake or your opponent can simply shoot down the 5/10 strikes manning the quad gun. As to more extreme lists (such as chaos daemons + chaos) you can get 2 hell-drakes + 3 FMCs or 5/6 FMCs no problem (it's 2k remember).

Maybe you should read Jy2's battle-reports using a Paladin-star http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547392.page might help you out.

But overall I think it's a bad list/battle-plan as you have most of your army tied up in the paladins (being held in reserve). First turn I'd dakka down mordrak and his unit (goodbye psychic communion) and if your librarian is attached to that unit even better. If I have something that screws with your reserves (warlord trait, OotF, fateweaver re-roll etc) then there's a high chance of the paladins not coming in. Then you simply need to kill the 2 Dreadknights + 10 Meqs which at 2k shouldn't be tricky.

Sorry, typing things wrong. Mordrak comes down first turn automatically and then using psychic comms gets the Paladins down second turn. With a Libby attached to Mordrak the Paladins won't scatter as they will use the teleporter homer.

How does the Libby being the warlord deny my logic? Once the Paladins are in the Libby will jump over to that unit.

Deep striking Paladins means they will not get shot for a turn. It also means they maybe in assault quicker. Where the Paladins land that will create an area of denial, though really that's rubbish as nearly 800 points just for that is way too much and you just put a lot of fire power into the Paladins and then close onto them.

As I mentioned, the Libby will have a teleporter homer, so the Paladins can land out of LOS if I position the Libby and Modrak right. Riptides aren't that mobile at all, they are jet pack infantry so move 6" and then jump away 2D6", which is generally used for hiding, though can close the gap between enemy units, also but interceptor comes before moving.

Warp quake is a12" radius, it's not hard to not deep strike within 12". Also that's a single army. What else has interceptor besides Tau and quad guns?

You're totally wrong about a quad gun doing nothing, it can glance those units on a 5+. Not great chances, but it can do something which is a lot more than you said. And the lists with high number of fliers in are extreme lists, they are not that common. The average number of fliers is 2-3.

The list is a Paladin bomb, so it will have most of the points tied up in Paladins. If you can dakka down Mordrak, then yes the psychic comms is going to go, though you're presuming they are just going to die. Removing those Terminators isn't going to be easy and you are presuming that I am just dropping them right in front you. I think you're just grasping as straws about reserves, the warlord trait is random, officer of the fleet is in a single army (can be used with allies) and sounds like you're just throwing counters out there, again. Fateweaver making re-roll when needing a 2+ for reserves isn't a problem. I wouldn't call those high chances at all. In fact they are very low chances and just minor speed bumps and weak attempts to stop reserve. You are also dimssing the fact that if I go second then the Paladins will turn up sooner or later. It's not the case of they won't turn up.

I'll be honest, you're not really helping me out here. You're just playing the old counter that counter this game and picking things in your favour in order to prove a point. You are not really giving any good input or offering suggestions i.e skyfire issues but not saying how to solve those problems and you are only saying I can beat this with X, Y,Z and those things you do mention are only limited things anyway i.e Ripties, reserve fiddly etc. We can all sit there and say X, Y, Z will beat a list as X,Y,Z can beat a list in favourable situations.

I'm providing reasoning and logic (with examples) as to why your list/plan of action with them is bad, trying to show why running Paladins with Coteaz + Draigo would be much better. But you seem to be too stubborn to follow the reasoning.

If you attach the librarian to Mordrak and deep-strike first turn you have 2 abalative wounds (the ghost knights) to soak any Str8 shooting before you could potentially lose your 2 very expensive Characters (including your warlord), particularly as you don't have a great inv 5++ and 4++. If you are deep-striking out of the armies range LOS etc fine, but then you're not really gaining much movement wise by deep-striking the paladins, and let's fancy it they're pretty tough with 2W, 2+ and FNP, so starting them on the board isn't that big a loss.

Your game plan is dependent on those 4 terminators surviving. I would probably shoot my entire army at them, so goodbye teleport homer and goodbye psychic communion. Yes you can place Mordrak further back etc, but as I said you're not really gaining anything then by deep-striking the paladins. Also after successfully said 4 terminators, your paladins are much less likely to come on (and I have provided a number of examples how your opponent could manipulate your roll), but also you no longer have a teleport homer to deep-strike safely.

Yes the quad gun is okay at AA, however it struggles with killing the tougher fliers and having a single source of skyfire isn't good particularly as storm ravens + vendettas are great at punking out paladins with their Str8 shooting. Also if I'm running 4 night scythes (not extreme for a necron list), you might get to shoot one down but the others will wipe your strikes/quad gun with ease.

Hope this is clearer for you.

So what you are doing is a variant on a "Ghostwing". I'm sure that you're familiar with it, but for those who are not I'll summarize:
Modrak+Librarian deepstrike turn 1 and everything that can shunts (30") forward, usually a couple dreadknights and some interceptors. Then turn 2 psychic communion+teleport homer puts the rest of your army in your opponent's deployment zone. It's all or nothing, and it can be effective though some armies of course will have hard counters for it. Your list does have fewer bodies than some, but also alot of durability and damage.

- I would strongly recommend the teleport homer on the librarian. That can be a lifesaver if you're dropping a large unit like you have. I would also recommend codex powers and taking warp rift. When you have no scatter it can hit what you want it to, which is useful against low-initiative armies and vehicles (try to hit 2 if you can). I would drop the servo skulls because your opponent can make them disappear so easily.
- I would drop the AGL and take 2 more ghost knights instead. You need the make sure that squad stays alive, and adding more knights gives it more punch when you assault the second turn.
- You don't need to worry about flyers. There are very few flyers which pose a real threat to your army, if someone spams vendettas you're mostly out of luck anyway as the grey knights. Spending points to halfheartedly counter flyers takes points away from your main attack, and you need everything you can get there. Did I mention all or nothing?
- If you have the points for a sword on one of the dreadknights get it, those re-rolls are essential for bad days.
- And FMCs...well most of them are built for close combat. Alot of them are psykers or daemons. If they get close, assault them. You have psyk-out grenades and alot of force weapon attacks. They'll have to come to you if you're sitting on their objectives.

Tactics-wise,you want to hit a single flank with everything, and then work your way through the rest of their army. Minimize the amount of fire that can target you turn 1, but also take out as much as you can with the dreadknights and warprift. Sometimes it's better to kill high-damage units than hide. It's a massive gamble anyway, high-risk but also high-reward. And remember, you don't have to do the deepstrike thing. If you're facing a green tide, maybe you start with everything on the table and just shoot.
You will have problems with eldar, dark eldar, and tau. All of them can shoot you hard, and the eldar types can move away really fast and then shoot you hard. But, you can't really make a true take all comers list at this point in 6th, you can just hope to take most comers, and putting a close combat oriented list into someone's deployment zone turn 2 will give most armies some problems.

Why is TAU so good against the Ghostwing by the way (i am planning to try it and thought it would be quite efficient against them as you can get the Broadsides with the warprift and pathfinders/firewarriors/kroots with the DK/interceptors and destroy a huge part of his army on turn 1.
Of course the following turn will hurt but i have not yet found a better counter to TAU, have you?

For the record, I have not played the new Tau. However, the reason they are tough for grey knights are that they can bring alot of AP2/3 to the table. They can also throw alot of high strength shots out in general, and as GK you just don't have the ranged weapons options that other armies have. Psycannons are awesome, but that's it. No plasma, no missile launchers, no lascannons. And no drop pods or storm shields for your marines. Being a high points per model army, losing a strike squad hurts more than losing a tactical squad. Deepstriking stuff is rough because of the large blast interceptor shot that riptides have.

However, that being said I think ghostwing has the best chance of dealing with a tau gunline out of the common lists, because you are very good at CC and the sooner you close the distance the better off you'll be. The dreadknights will do some serious roasting turn 1, and that warp rift can really hurt due to their low initiative. Personally, I would deepstrike modrak's unit right next to something like broadsides that risk being insta-killed by the riptide's ion accelerator blast, to make your opponent think twice about targeting them with that particular weapon. Then next turn, assault the riptide with a dreadknight. It's still a rough fight, but you stand a better chance than some of the other common GK builds.

Or, you take as many orbital strikes as you can (5, in a single FOC) and laugh as you sit back and rain fire on their castle.

Actually the problem with TAU (from what i saw) is not a lot of AP2/AP3 but a MASSIVE amount of wounds they do.
Even without the proper AP, when you have to roll 15-20 saves from a single Broadside unit, then it will hurt anyway.

CaptainJay wrote:I'm providing reasoning and logic (with examples) as to why your list/plan of action with them is bad, trying to show why running Paladins with Coteaz + Draigo would be much better. But you seem to be too stubborn to follow the reasoning.

If you attach the librarian to Mordrak and deep-strike first turn you have 2 abalative wounds (the ghost knights) to soak any Str8 shooting before you could potentially lose your 2 very expensive Characters (including your warlord), particularly as you don't have a great inv 5++ and 4++. If you are deep-striking out of the armies range LOS etc fine, but then you're not really gaining much movement wise by deep-striking the paladins, and let's fancy it they're pretty tough with 2W, 2+ and FNP, so starting them on the board isn't that big a loss.

Your game plan is dependent on those 4 terminators surviving. I would probably shoot my entire army at them, so goodbye teleport homer and goodbye psychic communion. Yes you can place Mordrak further back etc, but as I said you're not really gaining anything then by deep-striking the paladins. Also after successfully said 4 terminators, your paladins are much less likely to come on (and I have provided a number of examples how your opponent could manipulate your roll), but also you no longer have a teleport homer to deep-strike safely.

Yes the quad gun is okay at AA, however it struggles with killing the tougher fliers and having a single source of skyfire isn't good particularly as storm ravens + vendettas are great at punking out paladins with their Str8 shooting. Also if I'm running 4 night scythes (not extreme for a necron list), you might get to shoot one down but the others will wipe your strikes/quad gun with ease.

Hope this is clearer for you.

There's a difference of being stubborn and doing something totally different and something which isn't going to work. Starting the unit on the board isn't very good. They will take ages to get into combat and don't provide an area of no go, they provide a massive target to be shot at and when that target is depleted enemy units will move in.

Draigo is ok for taking those S8 wounds and making them troops choice, but is that worth at least three extra Terminators?

If I take Coteaz then he can be dakka'd just like the other units who are starting on the board, as you have mentioned. If I take Coteaz on foot with the other's there's just no point besides prescience. If I do deep strike the Paladins then there's no skulls or homer for them to use and they are at the mercy of the scatter dice. They also might be out of prescience range too.

I have already told you that I would deep strike Mordrak's unit in terrain or out of LOS. The unit also gets stealth from the Ghost Knights giving them a little more survivibility, especially if inside a ruin. How are you going to shoot your entire army at one unit? You are presuming that all your guns will be in range and all units can see them, this is not the case and once again you are cherry picking scenarios in your favour and not considering any variables. While you're putting all your fire power into these Terminators you have also forgot about the Dreadknights who would have shunted up in front of you or you going to use your entire army to shoot at them too?

You have provided several ways of changing my reserves, all of them are single units in one army or getting lucky from warlord trait. Hardly threatening or even reliable to use against my reserves at all. Once again you are cherry picking units and scenarios in your favour.

If a Stormraven wants to fire two shots at my Paladins and the Vendetta fire three then that's fine, they are not going to kill that much. Hardly threatening. Once again you haven't given any examples how to fix the skyfire issue and just state problems and give scenarios/units in your favour to prove a point.

greyknight12 wrote:So what you are doing is a variant on a "Ghostwing". I'm sure that you're familiar with it, but for those who are not I'll summarize:
Modrak+Librarian deepstrike turn 1 and everything that can shunts (30") forward, usually a couple dreadknights and some interceptors. Then turn 2 psychic communion+teleport homer puts the rest of your army in your opponent's deployment zone. It's all or nothing, and it can be effective though some armies of course will have hard counters for it. Your list does have fewer bodies than some, but also alot of durability and damage.

- I would strongly recommend the teleport homer on the librarian. That can be a lifesaver if you're dropping a large unit like you have. I would also recommend codex powers and taking warp rift. When you have no scatter it can hit what you want it to, which is useful against low-initiative armies and vehicles (try to hit 2 if you can). I would drop the servo skulls because your opponent can make them disappear so easily.
- I would drop the AGL and take 2 more ghost knights instead. You need the make sure that squad stays alive, and adding more knights gives it more punch when you assault the second turn.
- You don't need to worry about flyers. There are very few flyers which pose a real threat to your army, if someone spams vendettas you're mostly out of luck anyway as the grey knights. Spending points to halfheartedly counter flyers takes points away from your main attack, and you need everything you can get there. Did I mention all or nothing?
- If you have the points for a sword on one of the dreadknights get it, those re-rolls are essential for bad days.
- And FMCs...well most of them are built for close combat. Alot of them are psykers or daemons. If they get close, assault them. You have psyk-out grenades and alot of force weapon attacks. They'll have to come to you if you're sitting on their objectives.

Tactics-wise,you want to hit a single flank with everything, and then work your way through the rest of their army. Minimize the amount of fire that can target you turn 1, but also take out as much as you can with the dreadknights and warprift. Sometimes it's better to kill high-damage units than hide. It's a massive gamble anyway, high-risk but also high-reward. And remember, you don't have to do the deepstrike thing. If you're facing a green tide, maybe you start with everything on the table and just shoot.
You will have problems with eldar, dark eldar, and tau. All of them can shoot you hard, and the eldar types can move away really fast and then shoot you hard. But, you can't really make a true take all comers list at this point in 6th, you can just hope to take most comers, and putting a close combat oriented list into someone's deployment zone turn 2 will give most armies some problems.

Thanks for the valued and useful input.

What you said is correct; the Dreadknights will shunt up giving two monstrous creatures and a unit of Terminators to deal with on the opponent's door step. I am pretty sure Strike Knights will be the least of the opponent's worries.

You make a fair point about the quad gun. I am not a huge fan of it and I do not think it is that good, though I thought it was better than nothing. I guess it is better to do something right and get proper skyfire or just do not bother at all. Adding more Ghost Knights would certainly make Mordrak's unit a lot more survivable.

Totally true about FMC, the only dakka ones I can think of are the Slaanesh Prince (random shots), Harpy (who uses them?) and the Flyrant.

Teleporter homer will be added I will check out warp rift too.

I would attack a single flank with this army anyway. It would possibly put some of the opponent's army out of reach of me and will allow me to dismember a good portion of the opponent's force.

I also expect heavy shooting armies to batter this GK army, that's the nature of the beast. But 40k is rock paper scissors at the moment, something else will always better something else.

greyknight12 wrote:For the record, I have not played the new Tau. However, the reason they are tough for grey knights are that they can bring alot of AP2/3 to the table. They can also throw alot of high strength shots out in general, and as GK you just don't have the ranged weapons options that other armies have. Psycannons are awesome, but that's it. No plasma, no missile launchers, no lascannons. And no drop pods or storm shields for your marines. Being a high points per model army, losing a strike squad hurts more than losing a tactical squad. Deepstriking stuff is rough because of the large blast interceptor shot that riptides have.

However, that being said I think ghostwing has the best chance of dealing with a tau gunline out of the common lists, because you are very good at CC and the sooner you close the distance the better off you'll be. The dreadknights will do some serious roasting turn 1, and that warp rift can really hurt due to their low initiative. Personally, I would deepstrike modrak's unit right next to something like broadsides that risk being insta-killed by the riptide's ion accelerator blast, to make your opponent think twice about targeting them with that particular weapon. Then next turn, assault the riptide with a dreadknight. It's still a rough fight, but you stand a better chance than some of the other common GK builds.

Or, you take as many orbital strikes as you can (5, in a single FOC) and laugh as you sit back and rain fire on their castle.

I like the idea of deep striking close to an enemy unit so interceptor blasts etc will worry about hitting their own units. But still, there's only Tau who can do this and that is a single army.

 mercer wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:I'm providing reasoning and logic (with examples) as to why your list/plan of action with them is bad, trying to show why running Paladins with Coteaz + Draigo would be much better. But you seem to be too stubborn to follow the reasoning.

If you attach the librarian to Mordrak and deep-strike first turn you have 2 abalative wounds (the ghost knights) to soak any Str8 shooting before you could potentially lose your 2 very expensive Characters (including your warlord), particularly as you don't have a great inv 5++ and 4++. If you are deep-striking out of the armies range LOS etc fine, but then you're not really gaining much movement wise by deep-striking the paladins, and let's fancy it they're pretty tough with 2W, 2+ and FNP, so starting them on the board isn't that big a loss.

Your game plan is dependent on those 4 terminators surviving. I would probably shoot my entire army at them, so goodbye teleport homer and goodbye psychic communion. Yes you can place Mordrak further back etc, but as I said you're not really gaining anything then by deep-striking the paladins. Also after successfully said 4 terminators, your paladins are much less likely to come on (and I have provided a number of examples how your opponent could manipulate your roll), but also you no longer have a teleport homer to deep-strike safely.

Yes the quad gun is okay at AA, however it struggles with killing the tougher fliers and having a single source of skyfire isn't good particularly as storm ravens + vendettas are great at punking out paladins with their Str8 shooting. Also if I'm running 4 night scythes (not extreme for a necron list), you might get to shoot one down but the others will wipe your strikes/quad gun with ease.

Hope this is clearer for you.

There's a difference of being stubborn and doing something totally different and something which isn't going to work. Starting the unit on the board isn't very good. They will take ages to get into combat and don't provide an area of no go, they provide a massive target to be shot at and when that target is depleted enemy units will move in.

Draigo is ok for taking those S8 wounds and making them troops choice, but is that worth at least three extra Terminators?

If I take Coteaz then he can be dakka'd just like the other units who are starting on the board, as you have mentioned. If I take Coteaz on foot with the other's there's just no point besides prescience. If I do deep strike the Paladins then there's no skulls or homer for them to use and they are at the mercy of the scatter dice. They also might be out of prescience range too.

I have already told you that I would deep strike Mordrak's unit in terrain or out of LOS. The unit also gets stealth from the Ghost Knights giving them a little more survivibility, especially if inside a ruin. How are you going to shoot your entire army at one unit? You are presuming that all your guns will be in range and all units can see them, this is not the case and once again you are cherry picking scenarios in your favour and not considering any variables. While you're putting all your fire power into these Terminators you have also forgot about the Dreadknights who would have shunted up in front of you or you going to use your entire army to shoot at them too?

You have provided several ways of changing my reserves, all of them are single units in one army or getting lucky from warlord trait. Hardly threatening or even reliable to use against my reserves at all. Once again you are cherry picking units and scenarios in your favour.

If a Stormraven wants to fire two shots at my Paladins and the Vendetta fire three then that's fine, they are not going to kill that much. Hardly threatening. Once again you haven't given any examples how to fix the skyfire issue and just state problems and give scenarios/units in your favour to prove a point.

So I've hilighted my points above which I feel I am again re-iterating, as to cherry picking stituations, you seem to think there's going to be a perfect LOS blocking piece of terrain just in front of your opponents that magicly hides you from your opponents army that you can deep-strike Modrak into and then the paladins the following turn. Lets run through the scenario, you have turn 1, dreadknights shunt forward, mordrak + libby deep-strike probably somewhere far forward/close to opponents army, your opponent then has the 2 dreadknights to deal with. However given that if he doesn't kill Mordrak + Co he is also going to be facing 800 odd points of paladins it makes the target priority fairly easy. Particularly as you only have 2 ghost knights to soak Str 8 shots, so it only takes one lucky MM hit to one-shot Mordrak or your librarian, and killing either provides problems for your paladins "safe landing". There are then all my "cherry picked" examples of how your reserves could be further affected. The other scenario is you go 2nd in which case your opponent gets to shoot up the dreadknights from range, you then shunt forward and deep-strike Mordrak in. Again with the target priority and the fact that dreadknights have probably lost a couple of wounds already makes this a fairly easy choice.

As for fliers Vendettas should on average kill 2 paladins, where as storm ravens have 5 ID'ing shots (TL-MM + 4 missiles), I'm not giving solutions because I don't have them, I'm merely pointing out units that will give you issues and you don't have a counter for. A GK SR w/Psybolt TL-MM, TL-AC and hurricanne bolters is decent AA but expensive.

Coteaz is a bargain for 100pts, prescience + other power every turn, awesome. 16 TL-psycannon shots should kill a SR/vendetta/anything they Coupled with Draigo at the front to tank Str8 with 3++ and FNP. Given most missions don't have that many objectives and how tough as nails are paldins are (both in CC and shooting) having them spread out (to avoid blasts) and simply advancing up the field is actually a valid strategy as there aren't many things that would want to charge prescienced paladins/draigo/coteaz. Not sure how coteaz would get dakka'd out as you put it, and yes draigo is worth 3 extra terminators.

Basically if you want to run a 'Ghostwing' list as greyknight12 calls it I belive you could probably use the points spent on the paladins in a better fashion (3rd dreadknight, interceptors, etc) stuff that can shunt and you can reliably control/put pressure on your opponent with. You asked for critism on your list (hence why you posted it on this forum), but I'm finding you pretty hostile, maybe don't post your list if you don't want critisms/people to point out areas it's going to struggle. Alternatively feel free to try to prove me wrong, do a battle report with your proposed list.

Actually Coteaz on foot brings more then just prescience.

- Potential 4+ inv (3+ in cc), not impressive from a basic 5+ but still potentially useful.
- Potential ignore cover on a given ennemy, can be great on fliers, skimmers and troops in ruins
- Potentially make reroll saves (all kinds) on a given ennemy, that is just incredible, i find it even better then prescience quite often.
- Potential stuff on reserves (not great you take prescience instead)
- Potential counter assault and full BS overwatch if i remember well, actually you will likely not be charged with a full prescienced paladin squad so not as usefull either...
- Reroll hits, wounds and saves, great on the GM/Mordrak/Draigo, otherwise not as great. On Draigo it is incredible. Even on Coteaz it would allow you to take all the small fire on him (<S6 ><HP2) and then LOS other shooting attacks...

So you two great, 2 usefull and 2 less usefull spells on Prescience for Coteaz that would increase a lot your firepower. That should be taken into account (but it would be for another list, not a Mordrakwing)>

u could also maybe take double force org, and include draigo, mordrak, and coteaz/libby in the pallies.

even more points into the squad, but you know....

 CaptainJay wrote:

 mercer wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:



So I've hilighted my points above which I feel I am again re-iterating, as to cherry picking stituations, you seem to think there's going to be a perfect LOS blocking piece of terrain just in front of your opponents that magicly hides you from your opponents army that you can deep-strike Modrak into and then the paladins the following turn. Lets run through the scenario, you have turn 1, dreadknights shunt forward, mordrak + libby deep-strike probably somewhere far forward/close to opponents army, your opponent then has the 2 dreadknights to deal with. However given that if he doesn't kill Mordrak + Co he is also going to be facing 800 odd points of paladins it makes the target priority fairly easy. Particularly as you only have 2 ghost knights to soak Str 8 shots, so it only takes one lucky MM hit to one-shot Mordrak or your librarian, and killing either provides problems for your paladins "safe landing". There are then all my "cherry picked" examples of how your reserves could be further affected. The other scenario is you go 2nd in which case your opponent gets to shoot up the dreadknights from range, you then shunt forward and deep-strike Mordrak in. Again with the target priority and the fact that dreadknights have probably lost a couple of wounds already makes this a fairly easy choice.

As for fliers Vendettas should on average kill 2 paladins, where as storm ravens have 5 ID'ing shots (TL-MM + 4 missiles), I'm not giving solutions because I don't have them, I'm merely pointing out units that will give you issues and you don't have a counter for. A GK SR w/Psybolt TL-MM, TL-AC and hurricanne bolters is decent AA but expensive.

Coteaz is a bargain for 100pts, prescience + other power every turn, awesome. 16 TL-psycannon shots should kill a SR/vendetta/anything they Coupled with Draigo at the front to tank Str8 with 3++ and FNP. Given most missions don't have that many objectives and how tough as nails are paldins are (both in CC and shooting) having them spread out (to avoid blasts) and simply advancing up the field is actually a valid strategy as there aren't many things that would want to charge prescienced paladins/draigo/coteaz. Not sure how coteaz would get dakka'd out as you put it, and yes draigo is worth 3 extra terminators.

Basically if you want to run a 'Ghostwing' list as greyknight12 calls it I belive you could probably use the points spent on the paladins in a better fashion (3rd dreadknight, interceptors, etc) stuff that can shunt and you can reliably control/put pressure on your opponent with. You asked for critism on your list (hence why you posted it on this forum), but I'm finding you pretty hostile, maybe don't post your list if you don't want critisms/people to point out areas it's going to struggle. Alternatively feel free to try to prove me wrong, do a battle report with your proposed list.

Dude, you're like a broken record. As you said yourself, you have no solutions and you're just making up counters to to everything, which anyone can do.

I know what coteaz can do and I don't doubt how good he is. You are missing the point that I don't want my paladins on foot walking across the field. Please understand this.

If mordrak and three terminators will get dakkaed then why won't coteaz? Weaker target as t3 though still 2+ armour save. Only difference is with paladins and they will be dakkaed if walking on foot.

I ask for advice to get good ideas and so far you have given none. All you have come up is x y z will beat this and those are limited units anyway. When you have solutions to those problems then please let me know. Any fool can harp on what can beat something.

If you find me hostile then perhaps providegood feedback imstead of the game this can beat this. If you have a problem don't keeo replying then.

I don't have to do a bat rep. I've got nothing to prove to a strange over the Internet.