Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys,

I am currently reading through Battle of the Fang and a thought just struck me. The Space Wolves are so hell bent on killing Mangus that the Wolf Lord wants to take him down 1 on 1. Now from the fluff in the HH series Primarchs kill Astartes as easily as an Astarte kill's a normal man. So how come the Space Wolves are so confident in taking him down?

Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes? Or even normal Primarchs (if there are any that are not deamons).

Only Space Wolves can apparently kill Primarchs.

In every depiction of the Primarchs, they tear through swathes of regular Marines without skipping a beat (Corax, Kurze, Angron, Perturabo, Lorgar, Guilleman, etc. we see all of them just walking through squads of Marines).

In A Thousand Sons, they try to boss around Magnus, but reconsider when he loses his temper. In Fear to Tread, Russ sent a squad of Marines to "watch over" Sanguinius in case he turned traitor, and then they were somehow supposed to kill him. In Betrayer, a couple of squads surround Angron and supposedly put him in mortal peril. And as you pointed out, In Battle of the Fang, they think they can solo a Primarch, although in their defense, Magnus kept forgetting he was one.

Personally, I could maaaybe see it happen - and indeed it might not even have to be a Chapter Master or a Captain. However, the Daemon Primarch would have a significant advantage in that their physical form has been boosted by the power of the Warp, conferring superior strength, agility, and/or resilience. However, I maintain my interpretation that the weapon used in a fight is at least as crucial as the person wielding it, and supposedly Alpharius was almost gunned down by small arms fire of Horus and some bridge crew when he was found...
To me, there is no immunity against the weapons that would be utilised in such a confrontation, so the outcome of a duel, whilst heavily favouring the Daemon Primarch, would, to some portions, still rest on factors such as coincidence and sheer luck. Perhaps the Daemon Primarch was already wounded or is exhausted from a prior fight, all the way up to very unlikely happenings such as a flick of ash being blown into the Primarch's eyes just as its opponent strikes.

It should be noted that I am sticking to a much less romanticised interpretation of the setting, especially concerning the legends surrounding the Primarchs. I see the stories about them akin to the grand tales of Hercules or Jason - entertaining, epic stuff, but ultimately just nothing you should take too seriously. Especially when the 6E Rulebook even points out for us that accounts of that era are mystified hype.

I perceive the setting to be more grim and realistic if it is devoid of invulnerable demigods splitting mountains when they sneeze, and I generally prefer a somewhat lower "power level". That's merely a matter of taste, though. tl;dr, I think it depends mainly on what you want to see in a (Daemon) Primarch, and by extension the setting as a whole.

Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes?

Angron in the First War of Armageddon.

Or even normal Primarchs (if there are any that are not deamons).

Rogal Dorn was killed storming the bridge of a random Chaos battlecruiser. Details about the fight have unfortunately been left out of the original material, but we can probably assume the likelyhood of another Daemon Primarch popping into reality just to challenge Dorn the moment he enters the bridge is somewhat low.

Daston wrote:
Hey guys, Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes?

Not suggest that the Marine in question is 'normal' but I take it you've never stumbled on the exquisite piece of prose known as 'The Battle of Kornovin'?

Also, as Omegus suggested; Space Wolves, any of them (apparently).

 Lynata wrote:
It should be noted that I am sticking to a much less romanticised interpretation of the setting, especially concerning the legends surrounding the Primarchs. I see the stories about them akin to the grand tales of Hercules or Jason - entertaining, epic stuff, but ultimately just nothing you should take too seriously. Especially when the 6E Rulebook even points out for us that accounts of that era are mystified hype.

Share similar sentiments, which often makes me feel like an endangered species when talking about Primarchs on these boards.

Only if said Marine is a Grey Knight .

Not in a billion million years.
It's the equivalent of a sphinx cat with epilepsy and hemophilia winning against a bull African elephant covered in Kevlar armor, and trained by Bruce Lee.
@Lynata
Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.
They wouldn't idolize a "traitor".
Yep....

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.

"Only those who witnessed those distant days will ever truly know what happened upon Prospero when the Space Wolves attacked, as extant accounts often contradict each other dramatically. The epic, 'Prospero's Lament', describes a lengthy orbital bombardment by the Space Wolves, followed by a systematic campaign across the planet that took many days and nights, with a death toll of horrific proportions on both sides. On the other hand, one of the Space Wolves' strongest oral accounts of the battle, The Edda of the Hammer', asserts the Space Wolves took the Thousand Sons completely by surprise. The Space Wolves fell upon the City of Light from above (as Magnus had, so many years before) and reduced it in one terrible, bloody night of violence and carnage. The single night of burning libraries, crashing towers and feral mayhem is a potent image and the action described in the Edda matches the popular image of the Space Wolves. But the Edda is oft-criticised; for how could a planet of sorcerers, able to see across time and space and into the future, be so completely surprised as to face destruction in the course of a single night? How indeed, unless the dark powers which granted them their visions did not mean for them to see? However it occurred, the sack of Prospero was the ultimate horror for the scholarly Thousand Sons, as Russ and his Space Wolves smashed their way through the sanctuary of the City of Light. Russ's warriors built pyres from Magnus's libraries of books, parchments and ancient texts, destroying artifacts unique in all the galaxy with a stroke of the chainsword. Though they differ in their specifics, most accounts suggest Magnus himself met Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, Primarch against Primarch, berserker against giant in the ruined heart of the City. The War of the Giants', committed to print by Inquisitor Bastalek Grim from Space Wolf oral tradition, describes the titanic duel that followed:

'Magnus the Red did take to the field of battle, causing the ravaged ground to liquefy 'neath his mighty stride. Russ charged bodily the crimson behemoth and did lift the Cyclops off the ground, The Wolf-King broke the back of the Cyclops, and the last Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, did turn and flee. But as Russ raised Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow, Magnus spoke a word ot power, and did sink away into the iridescent ground.'

In accounting what took place at the last, claims of what occurred on Prospero's final night contradict wildly. Somehow, in the City of Light's dying moments, Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons

You take your "historical facts", I stick to regarding it as myths and legends.

And really, exaggerating the combat prowess of a beaten foe is and always was tantamount to idolising the victor, as it makes the winner seem even stronger.
Or do you really believe that 300 Spartans fought 1.000.000 Persians?

Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ...

 Lynata wrote:

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.

"Only those who witnessed those distant days will ever truly know what happened upon Prospero when the Space Wolves attacked, as extant accounts often contradict each other dramatically. The epic, 'Prospero's Lament', describes a lengthy orbital bombardment by the Space Wolves, followed by a systematic campaign across the planet that took many days and nights, with a death toll of horrific proportions on both sides. On the other hand, one of the Space Wolves' strongest oral accounts of the battle, The Edda of the Hammer', asserts the Space Wolves took the Thousand Sons completely by surprise. The Space Wolves fell upon the City of Light from above (as Magnus had, so many years before) and reduced it in one terrible, bloody night of violence and carnage. The single night of burning libraries, crashing towers and feral mayhem is a potent image and the action described in the Edda matches the popular image of the Space Wolves. But the Edda is oft-criticised; for how could a planet of sorcerers, able to see across time and space and into the future, be so completely surprised as to face destruction in the course of a single night? How indeed, unless the dark powers which granted them their visions did not mean for them to see? However it occurred, the sack of Prospero was the ultimate horror for the scholarly Thousand Sons, as Russ and his Space Wolves smashed their way through the sanctuary of the City of Light. Russ's warriors built pyres from Magnus's libraries of books, parchments and ancient texts, destroying artifacts unique in all the galaxy with a stroke of the chainsword. Though they differ in their specifics, most accounts suggest Magnus himself met Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, Primarch against Primarch, berserker against giant in the ruined heart of the City. The War of the Giants', committed to print by Inquisitor Bastalek Grim from Space Wolf oral tradition, describes the titanic duel that followed:

'Magnus the Red did take to the field of battle, causing the ravaged ground to liquefy 'neath his mighty stride. Russ charged bodily the crimson behemoth and did lift the Cyclops off the ground, The Wolf-King broke the back of the Cyclops, and the last Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, did turn and flee. But as Russ raised Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow, Magnus spoke a word ot power, and did sink away into the iridescent ground.'

In accounting what took place at the last, claims of what occurred on Prospero's final night contradict wildly. Somehow, in the City of Light's dying moments, Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons

You take your "historical facts", I stick to regarding it as myths and legends.

And really, exaggerating the combat prowess of a beaten foe is and always was tantamount to idolising the victor, as it makes the winner seem even stronger.
Or do you really believe that 300 Spartans fought 1.000.000 Persians?

Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ...

The old 300 was a fight among humans......
It follows massively different rules than a fight between a godly superman and legions of augmented humans.
Did you actually just compare the two?
Also the Space puppies hate Magnus and this is straight from a Thousand Sons with Ahirman as the narrator.

Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ...

Space Wolves exaggerate never ! You impune us sir

Also at the Battle of Prospero we only sent Three marines to kill all those Thousand Sons , no scratch that it was only Two and one of them was a Scout at that

Due to the nature of authors and the nature of the books they have been written in, the levels of power displayed by the Primarch's varies and alters. This also has to depend on the location, the equipment of both factions, the specific Primarch and the skill of the Chapter Master. Let's remember that the Daemon Primarch Angron wiped out scores of Grey Knights on his own, killing five Grey Knight terminators with a single strike of his sword. While he did have a bodyguard of 12 Bloodthirsters, they were still facing one hundred and nine of the Imperium's daemon hunting veterans.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The old 300 was a fight among humans......
It follows massively different rules than a fight between a godly superman and legions of augmented humans.
Did you actually just compare the two?

Yes. What do you think Hercules was, if not the "godly superman" of his time?

As I said, I hold a much more pragmatic view of the setting, and indeed the possibility that much of what some people may claim is "true" may just be distorted myths and propaganda makes it feel all the more grim to me. In a way, the ongoing fight against the truth behind such legends, is an important thematic element as well - at least for me.

"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappeared from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary, and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter. Others are still remembered on the Primarchs' adopted home planets. Today, the Primarchs are worshipped like gods, and pilgrimages are made along the trails they blazed across the stars, often ending at tombs or great memorials, places of ancient history that hold revered relics of their bones or wargear. Many still insist that their Primarchs will arise again, in the Imperium's direst need, for a final battle."
- 6E BRB : The Primarchs, p. 186


PS: @ Savagecoyote

 Imposter101 wrote:
Due to the nature of authors and the nature of the books they have been written in, the levels of power displayed by the Primarch's varies and alters. This also has to depend on the location, the equipment of both factions, the specific Primarch and the skill of the Chapter Master. Let's remember that the Daemon Primarch Angron wiped out scores of Grey Knights on his own, killing five Grey Knight terminators with a single strike of his sword. While he did have a bodyguard of 12 Bloodthirsters, they were still facing one hundred and nine of the Imperium's daemon hunting veterans.

This

Yet if you truly want to believe those stories, then the final confrontation involved only Aurellian and a few survivors, the others having been cut down mostly by the Bloodletters (which apparently were "amplified" by Angron's presence).
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390091a_WD278_C_Imperialis(Armageddon).pdf

To be fair, though, the example may not be appropriate anyways, given how it apparently required psychic powers to weaken Angron - and then to a point where anyone could have run him through...
If this is to be taken at face value, then perhaps only the Grey Knights and psychic Inquisitors would have a chance, but no "ordinary" Marine.

It's worth mentioning that Lynata does not read HH novels, so his version of the background is based on BRB/Codex material and Index Astartes articles. The novels take a decidedly less mythical approach to the storytelling, and present events straight up as "this is what happened" (continuity errors notwithstanding...looking at you McNeil).

As for Angron requiring a company of Grey Knights to defeat, Logan shrugged off the psychic powers of the same Grey Knight who shattered Angron's Black Sword and then insta-killed "the fastest Grey Knight Grandmaster ever" before the latter could even think about reaching for his swords. Obviously, Logan > Angron, and by extension, SW>Primarch. The reason Russ left is because he realized he was just holding his Legion back when he lost an arm-wrestling match to a wet-behind-the-ears Blood Claw.

I also have no love for the 40k Novels. What few of them I have read to completion gave such am impression that I will not waste time reading more of them. This is a perfectly valid opinion and I don't think it is fair of you to disparage Lynata for having the good sense to avoid bad literature.

There are plenty of other entertaining sources for background fluff in 40k.

Ironically, Lynata and I have gone back and forth in previous threads regarding this very topic. Neither one of us likely to persuade the other, but since neither of us is really "wrong" than it makes little difference. She is quite right to recall that the stories and legends are very old indeed and since no factual account of the events exists we can never know with certainty what happened. It may well be all myths and legends. But just as likely it is a true recounting of events. No one knows and we as the readers are intended to choose for ourselves which outcome we enjoy most.

I won't make any arguments about which is more likely since that sort of logic simply doesn't apply in a science-fantasy setting, but I certainly know which version is more entertaining to me.

 Lynata wrote:
Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."[/i]
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons

And this is a major problem with fluff authors - fist they state primarchs could survive ridiculous things like being eviscerated, boiled in plasma fire, burried under the tons of concrete, lose part of their god damned head or having powers sword stuck in their spine, and then Magnus dies to some silly thing like a broken back and Alpharius dies from a single power sword swing (OK, the last one is TOTALLY an AL disinformation, but yet Imperium tend to believe in it).

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.

"Only those who witnessed those distant days will ever truly know what happened upon Prospero when the Space Wolves attacked, as extant accounts often contradict each other dramatically. The epic, 'Prospero's Lament', describes a lengthy orbital bombardment by the Space Wolves, followed by a systematic campaign across the planet that took many days and nights, with a death toll of horrific proportions on both sides. On the other hand, one of the Space Wolves' strongest oral accounts of the battle, The Edda of the Hammer', asserts the Space Wolves took the Thousand Sons completely by surprise. The Space Wolves fell upon the City of Light from above (as Magnus had, so many years before) and reduced it in one terrible, bloody night of violence and carnage. The single night of burning libraries, crashing towers and feral mayhem is a potent image and the action described in the Edda matches the popular image of the Space Wolves. But the Edda is oft-criticised; for how could a planet of sorcerers, able to see across time and space and into the future, be so completely surprised as to face destruction in the course of a single night? How indeed, unless the dark powers which granted them their visions did not mean for them to see? However it occurred, the sack of Prospero was the ultimate horror for the scholarly Thousand Sons, as Russ and his Space Wolves smashed their way through the sanctuary of the City of Light. Russ's warriors built pyres from Magnus's libraries of books, parchments and ancient texts, destroying artifacts unique in all the galaxy with a stroke of the chainsword. Though they differ in their specifics, most accounts suggest Magnus himself met Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, Primarch against Primarch, berserker against giant in the ruined heart of the City. The War of the Giants', committed to print by Inquisitor Bastalek Grim from Space Wolf oral tradition, describes the titanic duel that followed:

'Magnus the Red did take to the field of battle, causing the ravaged ground to liquefy 'neath his mighty stride. Russ charged bodily the crimson behemoth and did lift the Cyclops off the ground, The Wolf-King broke the back of the Cyclops, and the last Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, did turn and flee. But as Russ raised Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow, Magnus spoke a word ot power, and did sink away into the iridescent ground.'

In accounting what took place at the last, claims of what occurred on Prospero's final night contradict wildly. Somehow, in the City of Light's dying moments, Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons

You take your "historical facts", I stick to regarding it as myths and legends.

And really, exaggerating the combat prowess of a beaten foe is and always was tantamount to idolising the victor, as it makes the winner seem even stronger.
Or do you really believe that 300 Spartans fought 1.000.000 Persians?

Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ...

The old 300 was a fight among humans......
It follows massively different rules than a fight between a godly superman and legions of augmented humans.
Did you actually just compare the two?
Also the Space puppies hate Magnus and this is straight from a Thousand Sons with Ahirman as the narrator.

He does have a point though. Only in the final confrontation were there 300 Spartans facing the Persian army. Up until the end of the Battle of Thermopylae, there were 7,000 Greeks. In fact, at the final confrontation there were around 1,500 Greeks, 300 of which were Spartans.

And it is believe it was between 100,000-150,000 in the Persian army. Not 1,000,000.

Yeah, the Battle of Thermopylae is sadly misrepresented in a lot of cases. It was a mix of lolwut on Xerxes part and holding a chokepoint against the lolwut tactics of the Persians.

 King Pariah wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.

"Only those who witnessed those distant days will ever truly know what happened upon Prospero when the Space Wolves attacked, as extant accounts often contradict each other dramatically. The epic, 'Prospero's Lament', describes a lengthy orbital bombardment by the Space Wolves, followed by a systematic campaign across the planet that took many days and nights, with a death toll of horrific proportions on both sides. On the other hand, one of the Space Wolves' strongest oral accounts of the battle, The Edda of the Hammer', asserts the Space Wolves took the Thousand Sons completely by surprise. The Space Wolves fell upon the City of Light from above (as Magnus had, so many years before) and reduced it in one terrible, bloody night of violence and carnage. The single night of burning libraries, crashing towers and feral mayhem is a potent image and the action described in the Edda matches the popular image of the Space Wolves. But the Edda is oft-criticised; for how could a planet of sorcerers, able to see across time and space and into the future, be so completely surprised as to face destruction in the course of a single night? How indeed, unless the dark powers which granted them their visions did not mean for them to see? However it occurred, the sack of Prospero was the ultimate horror for the scholarly Thousand Sons, as Russ and his Space Wolves smashed their way through the sanctuary of the City of Light. Russ's warriors built pyres from Magnus's libraries of books, parchments and ancient texts, destroying artifacts unique in all the galaxy with a stroke of the chainsword. Though they differ in their specifics, most accounts suggest Magnus himself met Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, Primarch against Primarch, berserker against giant in the ruined heart of the City. The War of the Giants', committed to print by Inquisitor Bastalek Grim from Space Wolf oral tradition, describes the titanic duel that followed:

'Magnus the Red did take to the field of battle, causing the ravaged ground to liquefy 'neath his mighty stride. Russ charged bodily the crimson behemoth and did lift the Cyclops off the ground, The Wolf-King broke the back of the Cyclops, and the last Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, did turn and flee. But as Russ raised Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow, Magnus spoke a word ot power, and did sink away into the iridescent ground.'

In accounting what took place at the last, claims of what occurred on Prospero's final night contradict wildly. Somehow, in the City of Light's dying moments, Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons

You take your "historical facts", I stick to regarding it as myths and legends.

And really, exaggerating the combat prowess of a beaten foe is and always was tantamount to idolising the victor, as it makes the winner seem even stronger.
Or do you really believe that 300 Spartans fought 1.000.000 Persians?

Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ...

The old 300 was a fight among humans......
It follows massively different rules than a fight between a godly superman and legions of augmented humans.
Did you actually just compare the two?
Also the Space puppies hate Magnus and this is straight from a Thousand Sons with Ahirman as the narrator.

He does have a point though. Only in the final confrontation were there 300 Spartans facing the Persian army. Up until the end of the Battle of Thermopylae, there were 7,000 Greeks. In fact, at the final confrontation there were around 1,500 Greeks, 300 of which were Spartans.

And it is believe it was between 100,000-150,000 in the Persian army. Not 1,000,000.

My point was that humans can only be so much better than each other.
When a godly superman steps in, if he plays his cards right he might not get wounded.

Personally, I've always chosen to see the Primarchs on a much less romanticised level, much more akin the the Eldar Phoenix Lords in that, they are the paragons of each other's race and equal to one another (in terms of fluff anyway).

Obviously, Forge World and many other gamers don't share this view but I feel it's important to think of Primarchs as mortals who can be defeated, rather than superhuman demigods (As many HH books has demonstrated).

Essentially, a Daemon Primarch is going to be on the same level as the Daemon Lords, although there's always the old argument about who has more favour from their respective God mind you. There's fluff examples to support Space Marine Chapter Masters taking on and beating extremely powerful Daemons (Dante and Ka'Bandha comes to mind) so it's definitely not outside the realm of possibility for a Chapter Master to be able to do so. It is, however, rather improbable that one would be able to do so without a rather thick plot armour unfortunately.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:
Personally, I've always chosen to see the Primarchs on a much less romanticised level, much more akin the the Eldar Phoenix Lords in that, they are the paragons of each other's race and equal to one another (in terms of fluff anyway).

Obviously, Forge World and many other gamers don't share this view but I feel it's important to think of Primarchs as mortals who can be defeated, rather than superhuman demigods (As many HH books has demonstrated).

Essentially, a Daemon Primarch is going to be on the same level as the Daemon Lords, although there's always the old argument about who has more favour from their respective God mind you. There's fluff examples to support Space Marine Chapter Masters taking on and beating extremely powerful Daemons (Dante and Ka'Bandha comes to mind) so it's definitely not outside the realm of possibility for a Chapter Master to be able to do so. It is, however, rather improbable that one would be able to do so without a rather thick plot armour unfortunately.

Iranna.

You do know that if Magnus decided to expend all his power and lifeforce, he could incinerate large planets multiple times over? He's multitudes stronger than Malacdor who could move moons.
Phoenix lords and Primarchs are not equal...........
Here are my feelings on Tolkien elves in any medium http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li_kx3Jz_Ks (If you think I'm being diminuitive take a chill pill, and learn to take a joke)

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

You do know that if Magnus decided to expend all his power and lifeforce, he could incinerate large planets multiple times over? He's multitudes stronger than Malacdor who could move moons.
Phoenix lords and Primarchs are not equal...........
Here are my feelings on Tolkien elves in any medium http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li_kx3Jz_Ks (If you think I'm being diminuitive take a chill pill, and learn to take a joke)

Perhaps it is you who needs a "chill pill", my good sir.

I never once said that they were equal. I said that I chose to interpret the fluff that way, I also said that the majority of sources disagree with me.

Also, if we're just going to throw out hyperbolic examples, Maugan Ra stood alone against an entire Tyranid attack and was victorious. He also plunged into the Eye of Terror and pulled out his Craftworld which had been stuck in the Warp for almost 10,000 years, again, single handedly.

Iranna.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:My point was that humans can only be so much better than each other.
When a godly superman steps in, if he plays his cards right he might not get wounded.

But my point was that myth and legend can turn slightly superior men into vastly superior men.
Why should one assume that it doesn't work the same with Primarchs - especially when GW themselves point it out?

I intentionally treat any such accounts as questionable and ask myself how else something could have been explained - it's a fun exercise, actually! Take Mortarion's homeworld Barbarus, for example. What exactly were those overlords settling in the toxic highlands who preyed on the feudal human population, kidnapping villagers and turning them into stitched-together dead? Were they truly as mysterious and daemonic as the retelling makes them out, or were they perhaps rather just uncaring scientists that managed to retain their technology from the early colonisation of the planet? Were they Chaos sorcerers, or xenos? If they were not human, why would one of them take Mortarion as an adopted son? So many questions, so many possible answers ...
... much more entertaining than simply taking everything at face value and turning the entire setting into a Hercules-like parody where technology becomes less important than the fantastic, at least to me.

Ultimately it remains a question of personal taste and preferences. I just stick by my earlier suggestion that this makes it much easier to explain how those "godly supermen" still managed to get themselves killed post-Heresy.

Iranna: Yeah, that's about my take as well.

KingPariah wrote:And it is believe it was between 100,000-150,000 in the Persian army. Not 1,000,000.

Isn't that the actual numbers? I was referring solely to the legend, which also tends to omit the assistance of the auxiliary forces entirely.

(although I'm operating from memory with the 1.000.000 - it has been years since I read that account, and most modern sources about this conflict stick to the "boring" facts )

 Lynata wrote:

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:My point was that humans can only be so much better than each other.
When a godly superman steps in, if he plays his cards right he might not get wounded.

But my point was that myth and legend can turn slightly superior men into vastly superior men.
Why should one assume that it doesn't work the same with Primarchs - especially when GW themselves point it out?

I intentionally treat any such accounts as questionable and ask myself how else something could have been explained - it's a fun exercise, actually! Take Mortarion's homeworld Barbarus, for example. What exactly were those overlords settling in the toxic highlands who preyed on the feudal human population, kidnapping villagers and turning them into stitched-together dead? Were they truly as mysterious and daemonic as the retelling makes them out, or were they perhaps rather just uncaring scientists that managed to retain their technology from the early colonisation of the planet? Were they Chaos sorcerers, or xenos? If they were not human, why would one of them take Mortarion as an adopted son? So many questions, so many possible answers ...
... much more entertaining than simply taking everything at face value and turning the entire setting into a Hercules-like parody where technology becomes less important than the fantastic, at least to me.

Ultimately it remains a question of personal taste and preferences. I just stick by my earlier suggestion that this makes it much easier to explain how those "godly supermen" still managed to get themselves killed post-Heresy.

Iranna: Yeah, that's about my take as well.

KingPariah wrote:And it is believe it was between 100,000-150,000 in the Persian army. Not 1,000,000.

Isn't that the actual numbers? I was referring solely to the legend, which also tends to omit the assistance of the auxiliary forces entirely.

(although I'm operating from memory with the 1.000.000 - it has been years since I read that account, and most modern sources about this conflict stick to the "boring" facts )

Most of the Primarchs are still alive and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
The official description of the primarchs is the "energy of a star wrapped in flesh".
Just like you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, don't bring modern logic 38000 years in the future.

and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.

Wrong. Very, very wrong

I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think

 motyak wrote:

and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.

Wrong. Very, very wrong

I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think

Fulgrim has a killcount of 2 primarchs by himself. (he killed manus, the spiritual liege may as well be dead)
The only one killed by anything normal was Curze who let the callidus kill him. Must of took a lot of stabs.........
The only other one was Dorn who we'll probably find out was killed by Daemon Angron or some gak.
You're the wrong one friend.

Demon-Angron, who just happens to pop up on a random cruiser's bridge just so he could kill Dorn. After Dorn's party already transmitted a "this will be our last fight" message because they were obviously so well-informed that the only thing in the galaxy that could possibly kill a Primarch would await them behind that door.
Do you really believe that?

Just like you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, don't bring modern logic 38000 years in the future.

When a Primarch can get injured by small arms fire, it doesn't really matter who's wielding the weapon. Unless your absence of "modern logic" includes bullets magically increasing in potency because they were fired by the hand of a genetically engineered being.

Also, there are many "official" descriptions of the Primarchs. You picked yours, I picked mine. And neither of us is wrong.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."[/i]
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons

And this is a major problem with fluff authors - fist they state primarchs could survive ridiculous things like being eviscerated, boiled in plasma fire, burried under the tons of concrete, lose part of their god damned head or having powers sword stuck in their spine, and then Magnus dies to some silly thing like a broken back and Alpharius dies from a single power sword swing (OK, the last one is TOTALLY an AL disinformation, but yet Imperium tend to believe in it).

Didn't Magnus heal from that the nanosecond after when they were at the planet of the sorcerors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
Demon-Angron, who just happens to pop up on a random cruiser's bridge just so he could kill Dorn. After Dorn's party already transmitted a "this will be our last fight" message because they were obviously so well-informed that the only thing in the galaxy that could possibly kill a Primarch would await them behind that door.
Do you really believe that?

Just like you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, don't bring modern logic 38000 years in the future.

When a Primarch can get injured by small arms fire, it doesn't really matter who's wielding the weapon. Unless your absence of "modern logic" includes bullets magically increasing in potency because they were fired by the hand of a genetically engineered being.

Also, there are many "official" descriptions of the Primarchs. You picked yours, I picked mine. And neither of us is wrong.

Are you saying it cant happen? Because it can......and something similar WILL happen for dramatic effect.
Plus it's within Post-ascension Angron's power to do that and he's always been spiteful.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 motyak wrote:

and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.

Wrong. Very, very wrong

I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think

Fulgrim has a killcount of 2 primarchs by himself. (he killed manus, the spiritual liege may as well be dead)
The only one killed by anything normal was Curze who let the callidus kill him. Must of took a lot of stabs.........
The only other one was Dorn who we'll probably find out was killed by Daemon Angron or some gak.
You're the wrong one friend.

And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Are you saying it cant happen? Because it can......and something similar WILL happen for dramatic effect.

You mean that some Black Library novel could come up with something like that?

Of course that could happen. After Black Library Primarchs were shown to powerlift Titans and shrug off artillery-grade plasma cannon fire with a tan, pretty much anything is possible.
Fortunately, that doesn't really have any bearing on what the rulebooks, codices and WD articles say, though. Or my opinion on the whole debacle.

To me, the more interesting question would be why you think that this is preferrable to a somewhat more grounded and "realistic" approach. This isn't even on the same level as taking statements such as Primarchs carrying entire mountains across an ocean (!) at face value, it is approaching cartoon levels of silliness. Is this what you truly want for your interpretation of the setting?