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VensersRevenge wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 motyak wrote:

and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.

Wrong. Very, very wrong

I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think

Fulgrim has a killcount of 2 primarchs by himself. (he killed manus, the spiritual liege may as well be dead)
The only one killed by anything normal was Curze who let the callidus kill him. Must of took a lot of stabs.........
The only other one was Dorn who we'll probably find out was killed by Daemon Angron or some gak.
You're the wrong one friend.

And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.

The operative word there being might. I choose to believe it was a random mook who bought it But then I've always had a soft spot for true loyalists like the Alpha Legion.

And @SaintofKillers, you can make stuff up all you want in regards to Dorn, and there is no proof that Roboute is getting better or worse, and since he isn't dead then he hasn't been killed, and doesn't add to Fulgrim's tally. Leaving the split exactly as I put it. And you are doing exactly what another user used to do in these exact same discussions, inventing things and saying 'this will happen' with absolutely no grounds to stand on, then telling people they are totally wrong and you are right when you get called on it.

 motyak wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 motyak wrote:

and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.

Wrong. Very, very wrong

I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think

Fulgrim has a killcount of 2 primarchs by himself. (he killed manus, the spiritual liege may as well be dead)
The only one killed by anything normal was Curze who let the callidus kill him. Must of took a lot of stabs.........
The only other one was Dorn who we'll probably find out was killed by Daemon Angron or some gak.
You're the wrong one friend.

And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.

The operative word there being might. I choose to believe it was a random mook who bought it But then I've always had a soft spot for true loyalists like the Alpha Legion.


And @SaintofKillers, you can make stuff up all you want in regards to Dorn, and there is no proof that Roboute is getting better or worse, and since he isn't dead then he hasn't been killed, and doesn't add to Fulgrim's tally. Leaving the split exactly as I put it. And you are doing exactly what another user used to do in these exact same discussions, inventing things and saying 'this will happen' with absolutely no grounds to stand on, then telling people they are totally wrong and you are right when you get called on it.

You told me I was totally wrong and I said you were totally wrong. Only difference is I'm smart enough to notice. I'm not making things up either, only thing there not 100% fact I'll guarantee you something similar will happen for dramatic effect.
I took college courses on writing, it'd be disappointing to everyone if they didn't do something akin to that. I have grounds
Point being when the heresy series has run it's course, not one primarch will have been killed by anything but another primarch.(Except Curze who basically committed seppuku) It's a prediction. Not making things up.
God forbid you make predictions for a book 3 years in the future, when you have credentials to do so with bits of accuracy.
In conclusion chill, and to any onlooker you're the one who came in calling someone "very, very wrong". Yeah......

 Lynata wrote:
Angron in the First War of Armageddon.

So I guess you consider Grey Knights normal Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daston wrote:
Hey guys,

I am currently reading through Battle of the Fang and a thought just struck me. The Space Wolves are so hell bent on killing Mangus that the Wolf Lord wants to take him down 1 on 1. Now from the fluff in the HH series Primarchs kill Astartes as easily as an Astarte kill's a normal man. So how come the Space Wolves are so confident in taking him down?

Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes? Or even normal Primarchs (if there are any that are not deamons).

They can't kill Magnus, he is a Daemon, it is impossible for them to kill him.

It is however possible for them to banish him, and Magnus in particular is relatively easy to banish for a Primarch, because he so often forgets that he is one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
Only Space Wolves can apparently kill Primarchs.

In every depiction of the Primarchs, they tear through swathes of regular Marines without skipping a beat (Corax, Kurze, Angron, Perturabo, Lorgar, Guilleman, etc. we see all of them just walking through squads of Marines).

In A Thousand Sons, they try to boss around Magnus, but reconsider when he loses his temper. In Fear to Tread, Russ sent a squad of Marines to "watch over" Sanguinius in case he turned traitor, and then they were somehow supposed to kill him. In Betrayer, a couple of squads surround Angron and supposedly put him in mortal peril. And as you pointed out, In Battle of the Fang, they think they can solo a Primarch, although in their defense, Magnus kept forgetting he was one.

In Fear to Tread the only purpose the Space Wolves served were to be eaten by proto Flesh Tearers. Easily the best scene in the entire book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Of course that could happen. After Black Library Primarchs were shown to powerlift Titans and shrug off artillery-grade plasma cannon fire with a tan, pretty much anything is possible.

You haven't read either of those books.

Why pretend that you have just so you can mock them?

To me, the more interesting question would be why you think that this is preferrable to a somewhat more grounded and "realistic" approach. This isn't even on the same level as taking statements such as Primarchs carrying entire mountains across an ocean (!) at face value, it is approaching cartoon levels of silliness. Is this what you truly want for your interpretation of the setting?

Because 40k is not grounded or realistic. It's a Greek tragedy, relying on OP as feth characters doing ridiculous dumb gak in grandiose ways.

Void__Dragon wrote:So I guess you consider Grey Knights normal Space Marines.

As I said ->

Lynata wrote:To be fair, though, the example may not be appropriate anyways, given how it apparently required psychic powers to weaken Angron - and then to a point where anyone could have run him through...
If this is to be taken at face value, then perhaps only the Grey Knights and psychic Inquisitors would have a chance, but no "ordinary" Marine.

Of course, the same limitation would then apply to non-psychic Primarchs, hypothetically speaking.

Had this kill not required psychic ability, however? Yes, then I do think a Grey Knight would be no different from a normal Space Marine. Alas, the detailed circumstances of the conflict invalidated the example.

Void__Dragon wrote:You haven't read either of those books.
Why pretend that you have just so you can mock them?

I don't pretend. In fact, I've been rather open about avoiding them, as you surely must have noticed in another recent thread. I do, however, read forums such as dakka, and trust in the reviews of those who did check them out.

Why, are you saying that these things are untrue, or are you merely trying to chip away at my statements?

Void__Dragon wrote:Because 40k is not grounded or realistic. It's a Greek tragedy, relying on OP as feth characters doing ridiculous dumb gak in grandiose ways.

To quote a wise man, "that's just, like, your opinion, man". I don't have much of a problem seeing the setting in a more grounded and realistic way. Probably because the original material is more grounded and realistic - at least in comparison. Like I wrote earlier, I suppose it depends on the source we've "grown up" with, and as much as you may prefer the Black Library version of the Horus Heresy with its "ridiculous dumb gak in grandiose ways", that world just feels utterly alien to me and breaks my suspension of disbelief in a way that the vast majority of GW's own stuff does not.
Fortunately, the way the franchise is handled allows each of us to stick with what we prefer. Unfortunately, this also means that debates such as these are unlikely to ever cease, as opinions and preferences will continue to clash. That is the price we have to pay for this liberty.

A Chapter Master might be able to defeat to defeat a Daemon Primarch if they brought their chapter along with them for the fight.

One on one, well, consider that Calgar only barely survived his encounter with the Swarmlord by force feeding it with his honour guard while he ran away. Now consider that a Daemon Primarch would be much more powerful than the Swarmlord.

VensersRevenge wrote:
And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.

You've must be kidding. The only source of the "Marny killing Alpharius" is the inquisitor Cravin report, and mind you Cravin get missed shortly after this report and is suspected to be AL agent. No Macrage, nor Terra archives have any mentions about Escrador war. This is such an obvious fake that I always winder how do people ever believe in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
One on one, well, consider that Calgar only barely survived his encounter with the Swarmlord by force feeding it with his honour guard while he ran away.

1) Marny was to busy dying to run away - he was dragged unconcious.
2) While the Swarmlord is a horrible close combat monster, he defeeats Mrny through cunning tactic rather than brute force (which is acrually more impressive). If not the Swarmlord trickery, Kalgar would fight with his honor guard squad, like any reasonable chapter master should, instead of being forced to face towering alien rape machine on his own.
3) During the Bloodborn invasion Marny had a hard time fighting M'Kar even with having Ventrys and Honor guard on his side - and M'Kar is a biggest failure amongst the deamon princes. And Daemon Primarchs are wey, WAY more powerful than ordinary DPs.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
One on one, well, consider that Calgar only barely survived his encounter with the Swarmlord by force feeding it with his honour guard while he ran away.

1) Marny was to busy dying to run away - he was dragged unconcious.
2) While the Swarmlord is a horrible close combat monster, he defeeats Mrny through cunning tactic rather than brute force (which is acrually more impressive). If not the Swarmlord trickery, Kalgar would fight with his honor guard squad, like any reasonable chapter master should, instead of being forced to face towering alien rape machine on his own.
3) During the Bloodborn invasion Marny had a hard time fighting M'Kar even with having Ventrys and Honor guard on his side - and M'Kar is a biggest failure amongst the deamon princes. And Daemon Primarchs are wey, WAY more powerful than ordinary DPs.

True, I was just trying to reduce the utter failure and humiliation so I wouldn't get swarmed by butthurt tau-loving ultrasmurf fanboys.
Also, the Swamlord defeated Calgar in both tactics and brute force, using tactics to get into combat with him and brute force to beat the s*** out of him.

In before Draigo defeating Mortarion cries

 Lynata wrote:
Of course, the same limitation would then apply to non-psychic Primarchs, hypothetically speaking.

Had this kill not required psychic ability, however? Yes, then I do think a Grey Knight would be no different from a normal Space Marine. Alas, the detailed circumstances of the conflict invalidated the example.

All Grey Knights use their psychic abilities at all times when fighting Daemons. The Aegis never falls.

I don't pretend. In fact, I've been rather open about avoiding them, as you surely must have noticed in another recent thread. I do, however, read forums such as dakka, and trust in the reviews of those who did check them out.

Why, are you saying that these things are untrue, or are you merely trying to chip away at my statements?

Yes, I name all who have informed you liars and charlatans, exaggerating what they read because it rustled their jimmies.

Angron stopped and held a Warhound Titan, that much is true. His body was also breaking in the attempt.

Lorgar was hit by a Plasma Blast Gun and was badly wounded, and IIRC had to employ his psychic powers to heal himself to continue fighting.

To quote a wise man, "that's just, like, your opinion, man". I don't have much of a problem seeing the setting in a more grounded and realistic way. Probably because the original material is more grounded and realistic - at least in comparison. Like I wrote earlier, I suppose it depends on the source we've "grown up" with, and as much as you may prefer the Black Library version of the Horus Heresy with its "ridiculous dumb gak in grandiose ways", that world just feels utterly alien to me and breaks my suspension of disbelief in a way that the vast majority of GW's own stuff does not.
Fortunately, the way the franchise is handled allows each of us to stick with what we prefer. Unfortunately, this also means that debates such as these are unlikely to ever cease, as opinions and preferences will continue to clash. That is the price we have to pay for this liberty.

I truly can not fathom how you can say that. Your opinion of what constitutes as "grounded and realistic" is apparently entirely different from my own.

The original material? Original as in codex, or literally 1e? If the latter, it introduced an entire army of pub-brawling barbarians who start solar system-wide parties and fight by running up in big hordes and punching the gak out of things until they die. The setting was conceived as an over the top grimdark parody.

If the codices in general, then you have such fluff excerpts as a single Ork biker riding his bike through the Void Shields of a Titan and into its cockpit, you have sole Marines holding back entire Ork invasions by themselves, or a single Phoenix Lord beating a Tyranid invasion single-handedly. You have some fat guy who runs around the Warp solo'ing the Realms of Chaos alone and unaided, you have Marines shrugging off planetary bombardment weaponry due to the durability of their powered armour. You have Carnifexes that tear Wraithbone spires taller than any real life building in half, and the Space Marines who kill them in martial combat.

The codex fluff is not grounded or realistic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mezmerro wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.

You've must be kidding. The only source of the "Marny killing Alpharius" is the inquisitor Cravin report, and mind you Cravin get missed shortly after this report and is suspected to be AL agent. No Macrage, nor Terra archives have any mentions about Escrador war. This is such an obvious fake that I always winder how do people ever believe in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
One on one, well, consider that Calgar only barely survived his encounter with the Swarmlord by force feeding it with his honour guard while he ran away.

1) Marny was to busy dying to run away - he was dragged unconcious.
2) While the Swarmlord is a horrible close combat monster, he defeeats Mrny through cunning tactic rather than brute force (which is acrually more impressive). If not the Swarmlord trickery, Kalgar would fight with his honor guard squad, like any reasonable chapter master should, instead of being forced to face towering alien rape machine on his own.
3) During the Bloodborn invasion Marny had a hard time fighting M'Kar even with having Ventrys and Honor guard on his side - and M'Kar is a biggest failure amongst the deamon princes. And Daemon Primarchs are wey, WAY more powerful than ordinary DPs.

Roboute Guilliman and Marneus Calgar are not the same person.

Daston wrote:
Hey guys,

I am currently reading through Battle of the Fang and a thought just struck me. The Space Wolves are so hell bent on killing Mangus that the Wolf Lord wants to take him down 1 on 1. Now from the fluff in the HH series Primarchs kill Astartes as easily as an Astarte kill's a normal man. So how come the Space Wolves are so confident in taking him down?

Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes? Or even normal Primarchs (if there are any that are not deamons).

Angron in the end was felled by Grey Knights, though he and his bodyguard took plenty of them with him. Captain Aurelian was the one to banish him in the end after Hyperion shattered his Black Sword.

Angron presumably lost Gorefather somewhere on his Daemon world.

 Lynata wrote:

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Are you saying it cant happen? Because it can......and something similar WILL happen for dramatic effect.

You mean that some Black Library novel could come up with something like that?

Of course that could happen. After Black Library Primarchs were shown to powerlift Titans and shrug off artillery-grade plasma cannon fire with a tan, pretty much anything is possible.
Fortunately, that doesn't really have any bearing on what the rulebooks, codices and WD articles say, though. Or my opinion on the whole debacle.

To me, the more interesting question would be why you think that this is preferrable to a somewhat more grounded and "realistic" approach. This isn't even on the same level as taking statements such as Primarchs carrying entire mountains across an ocean (!) at face value, it is approaching cartoon levels of silliness. Is this what you truly want for your interpretation of the setting?

As someone who reads comic books, that isn't really all that out there.


I mean, I regularly read about Thor who's powers Horse face (I know he's named Beta Ray Bill) over there explicitly matches exactly.

Void__Dragon wrote:All Grey Knights use their psychic abilities at all times when fighting Daemons. The Aegis never falls.

The Aegis is a defensive measure against corruption, though, not something that enables a kill when otherwise it would not be possible. By the same token we could deploy a bunch of Battle Sisters, seeing as their willpower apparently has a similar effect.

It's really not like Grey Knights or Inquisitors are the only ones fighting a daemon, and a Daemon Primarch is but a specific type of daemon, just like a Greater One.

Void__Dragon wrote:Angron stopped and held a Warhound Titan, that much is true. His body was also breaking in the attempt.
Lorgar was hit by a Plasma Blast Gun and was badly wounded, and IIRC had to employ his psychic powers to heal himself to continue fighting.

So both things did happen, and the internet merely applied the usual bit of exaggeration.
That doesn't really change the core statement then, does it? No-one should survive a plasma blast from a Titan. Not the way I see it, at least.

Void__Dragon wrote:The codex fluff is not grounded or realistic.

None of that is as ridiculous as people weathering plasma blasts that level entire buildings.

Also, now it is you who is "exaggerating what you read because it rustled your jimmies", for at least the incident with the orbital bombardment is something I have seen myself, and nowhere did it suggest that their armour could withstand direct hits. We've been over this before - check the source again and note how the Marines were inside a building. As such, they would "merely" have to cope with the debris and the floors coming down on them. Still quite a feat, obviously, but not as ludicrous as you make it out to be. If this were in a movie, I'd have no problem watching it. The above Primarch stories, on the other hand, are firmly in "superhero" territory, and superheroes just don't fit into my perception of 40k. That's really all there is to it.

Kain wrote:As someone who reads comic books, that isn't really all that out there.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with superheroes per se - when the setting is designed to house them. I've read my share of Spiderman in my childhood, watched the X-Men cartoon, and recently was very entertained by the Avengers movie. I've even played a superhero in CO. And I might actually enjoy the Primarch things if they were their own thing instead of "invading" a setting that I perceive to belong to a different genre, so to say.

In a way, you could say I'm applying different expectations of reality to the various franchises. When watching the Avengers movie, I expect nothing but some good popcorn entertainment. When reading about 40k, I am analysing the factions, read up on the technology, and apply a requirement for things to "fit together" that would be unthinkable in a superhero comic setting.

 Mezmerro wrote:

And this is a major problem with fluff authors - fist they state primarchs could survive ridiculous things like being eviscerated, boiled in plasma fire, burried under the tons of concrete, lose part of their god damned head or having powers sword stuck in their spine, and then Magnus dies to some silly thing like a broken back and Alpharius dies from a single power sword swing (OK, the last one is TOTALLY an AL disinformation, but yet Imperium tend to believe in it).

Which is a problem if you take these stories as historical accounts, but not a problem if you see them as myths and legends. Myths don't need to be realistic or consistent.

As for the actual topic, while I could see skilled and extremely lucky Marine defeating a Primarch (just like a skilled and lucky normal human could defeat a Marine), the Daemon Primarchs are an another matter. They are not only Primarchs, they are massively augmented by their daemonic powers as well. I cannot see a lone Marine ever banishing one (yes, not even Draigo!), It takes a small army of Marines to defeat a Daemon Primarch.

As for power levels, I really don't want 40K to be like superhero comics (well, except like Batman.)

 Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:All Grey Knights use their psychic abilities at all times when fighting Daemons. The Aegis never falls.

The Aegis is a defensive measure against corruption, though, not something that enables a kill when otherwise it would not be possible. By the same token we could deploy a bunch of Battle Sisters, seeing as their willpower apparently has a similar effect.

It's really not like Grey Knights or Inquisitors are the only ones fighting a daemon, and a Daemon Primarch is but a specific type of daemon, just like a Greater One.

Void__Dragon wrote:Angron stopped and held a Warhound Titan, that much is true. His body was also breaking in the attempt.
Lorgar was hit by a Plasma Blast Gun and was badly wounded, and IIRC had to employ his psychic powers to heal himself to continue fighting.

So both things did happen, and the internet merely applied the usual bit of exaggeration.
That doesn't really change the core statement then, does it? No-one should survive a plasma blast from a Titan. Not the way I see it, at least.

Void__Dragon wrote:The codex fluff is not grounded or realistic.

None of that is as ridiculous as people weathering plasma blasts that level entire buildings.

Also, now it is you who is "exaggerating what you read because it rustled your jimmies", for at least the incident with the orbital bombardment is something I have seen myself, and nowhere did it suggest that their armour could withstand direct hits. We've been over this before - check the source again and note how the Marines were inside a building. As such, they would "merely" have to cope with the debris and the floors coming down on them. Still quite a feat, obviously, but not as ludicrous as you make it out to be. If this were in a movie, I'd have no problem watching it. The above Primarch stories, on the other hand, are firmly in "superhero" territory, and superheroes just don't fit into my perception of 40k. That's really all there is to it.

Kain wrote:As someone who reads comic books, that isn't really all that out there.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with superheroes per se - when the setting is designed to house them. I've read my share of Spiderman in my childhood, watched the X-Men cartoon, and recently was very entertained by the Avengers movie. I've even played a superhero in CO. And I might actually enjoy the Primarch things if they were their own thing instead of "invading" a setting that I perceive to belong to a different genre, so to say.

In a way, you could say I'm applying different expectations of reality to the various franchises. When watching the Avengers movie, I expect nothing but some good popcorn entertainment. When reading about 40k, I am analysing the factions, read up on the technology, and apply a requirement for things to "fit together" that would be unthinkable in a superhero comic setting.

Don't talk to me about CO...

It makes me miss CoX even more.

:(

If the author felt like his mary sue needed to.

Yes, though it would require an exceptional individual and/or circumstances.
Calgar defeated the Swarmlord in single combat at Ichar IV, Dante (probably) bested Skarbrand, Ragnar beat Magnus by throwing a spear in his eye, Draigo humbled Mortarion, Hector Rex (almost a Space Marine ) defeated An'ggrath and Mephiston slapped Doombreed.
Calgar and Mephiston also beat M'kar, the same M'kar that Draigo struggled with seemingly more than Mortarion.

EDIT:
Oh, and the Sanguinor (maybe a Space Marine ) dropping Ka'Bandha of course.

Animus wrote:
Yes, though it would require an exceptional individual and/or circumstances.
Calgar defeated the Swarmlord in single combat at Ichar IV, Dante (probably) bested Skarbrand, Ragnar beat Magnus by throwing a spear in his eye, Draigo humbled Mortarion, Hector Rex (almost a Space Marine ) defeated An'ggrath and Mephiston slapped Doombreed.
Calgar and Mephiston also beat M'kar, the same M'kar that Draigo struggled with seemingly more than Mortarion.

Wut?

Animus wrote:
Yes, though it would require an exceptional individual and/or circumstances.
Calgar defeated the Swarmlord in single combat at Ichar IV, Dante (probably) bested Skarbrand, Ragnar beat Magnus by throwing a spear in his eye, Draigo humbled Mortarion, Hector Rex (almost a Space Marine ) defeated An'ggrath and Mephiston slapped Doombreed.
Calgar and Mephiston also beat M'kar, the same M'kar that Draigo struggled with seemingly more than Mortarion.

When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank

Kain wrote:
Wut?

In a White Dwarf article, around the time the 5e Tyranids came out I think, I'm sure I've saved a picture of it somewhere.

PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank

He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death.

Animus wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank

He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death.

Cheers

Maybe but I'm not seeing it.
That said usually a Chapter Master wouldn't be dumb enough to do it without cheating a lot...

Animus wrote:

Kain wrote:
Wut?

In a White Dwarf article, around the time the 5e Tyranids came out I think, I'm sure I've saved a picture of it somewhere.

PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank

He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death.

There is absolutely no mention of the Swarmlord being present on Ichar IV.

There is mention of the Swarmlord nearly killing Calgar and slaughtering his entire personal guard on Maccragge though.

People seem to love to overlook the unforgiven in these primarch discussions!

As far as a normal SM taking out a primarch? Luther vs Lion El'Johnson, Luther was somewhere between a normal human and a SM, he was too old or not a good enough candidate to get the full blown SM treatment. Granted, Luther got super boosted by the chaos gods to fight johnson, but in the course of the battle he "defeats" the Lion and lives through the ordeal himself.

But.... the lion lives and is simply in stasis waiting to return!

guidsgjg wrote:
People seem to love to overlook the unforgiven in these primarch discussions!

As far as a normal SM taking out a primarch? Luther vs Lion El'Johnson, Luther was somewhere between a normal human and a SM, he was too old or not a good enough candidate to get the full blown SM treatment. Granted, Luther got super boosted by the chaos gods to fight johnson, but in the course of the battle he "defeats" the Lion and lives through the ordeal himself.

But.... the lion lives and is simply in stasis waiting to return!

Hm? Whats the relation here? Are you saying he defeated or didn't defeat the Lion? And whats your opinion? Do you think a Chapter Master or Captain has a small chance of being able to beat a Daemon Primarch in a fight?

 Kain wrote:

There is absolutely no mention of the Swarmlord being present on Ichar IV.

Not that you knew of I suppose, but here's this, which I hope I'm allowed to post.

 Kain wrote:

There is mention of the Swarmlord nearly killing Calgar and slaughtering his entire personal guard on Maccragge though.

Well Rocky didn't win his first fight against Apollo either.

 Mezmerro wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.

You've must be kidding. The only source of the "Gulliman killing Alpharius" is the inquisitor Cravin report, and mind you Cravin get missed shortly after this report and is suspected to be AL agent. No Macrage, nor Terra archives have any mentions about Escrador war. This is such an obvious fake that I always winder how do people ever believe in it.


.

Notice the might. I never said I believed it. I simply said that he might have. That does not mean that I am joking or that I don't read fluff. It simply means I am open to the possibility that it might have happened.

 Kain wrote:

Animus wrote:

Kain wrote:
Wut?

In a White Dwarf article, around the time the 5e Tyranids came out I think, I'm sure I've saved a picture of it somewhere.

PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank

He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death.

There is absolutely no mention of the Swarmlord being present on Ichar IV.

There is mention of the Swarmlord nearly killing Calgar and slaughtering his entire personal guard on Maccragge though.

The fight between Calgar and the Swarmlord on Ichar IV also appears in the new codex on page 29.

Animus wrote:

Kain wrote:
Wut?

In a White Dwarf article, around the time the 5e Tyranids came out I think, I'm sure I've saved a picture of it somewhere.

PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank

He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death.

Mephiston has no business dealing with Doombreed. They are on massively different levels.
Edward in power armor vs Genghis Khan as a Daemon Prince who's the 1st or 2nd most powerful servant of Khorne.
That gak is so stupid.

Animus wrote:
Well Rocky didn't win his first fight against Apollo either.

It seems like those two are damned to fight each other forever.
And i always wondered why Marny always shown with bionic eye, while fluff-wise he lost it (and all his limbs with a large part of guts) on 976.M41 (ironically by being nearly killed by the Swarmlord AGAIN)

Yes, but its very unlikely, and it depends heavily on the circumstances of the battle.

 Mezmerro wrote:

Animus wrote:
Well Rocky didn't win his first fight against Apollo either.

It seems like those two are damned to fight each other forever.
And i always wondered why Marny always shown with bionic eye, while fluff-wise he lost it (and all his limbs with a large part of guts) on 976.M41 (ironically by being nearly killed by the Swarmlord AGAIN)

The Swarmlord probably enjoys repeatedly tearing THE "Mary Sue" new and varying donkey-caves.