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Ok, there's been some confusion, so let me introduce the topic a little better. This is a thought experiment: let's assume that all the infantry units in 40k are balanced with each other in terms of relative power levels, fluff-wise. So playing as Imperial Guard, your guardsmen behave how you expect they would behave relative to, say, bloodletters or guardians (and vice versa for the person across the table). But let's continue and assume that alone among armies, space marines of all stripes are under-performing compared to their Black Library counterparts. (This actually makes sense for gameplay, because the marines in Black Library novels are a little ridiculous, and GW is in the business of selling models - you won't make as much money off a 2000 pt army of only 25 marines as you would off one that includes 60 of the buggers).

So, if we were to go through and "reset" the power level of space marine infantry, starting with a loyalist tactical squad as the baseline, how would they look? Here's my (revised - thanks for the suggestions!) interpretation, and note that points are very approximate:


"Black Library" Space Marines Tactical Squad
210 pts

Space Marine Sergeant
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 A3 W2 Ld9 Sv3+/6++

Space Marine
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 A2 W2 Ld8 Sv3+/6++

Unit Composition:
1 Space Marine Sergeant and 4 Space Marines.

Unit Type:
Space Marines are Infantry. Space Marine Sergeants are Infantry Characters.

Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Squads, Feel No Pain, Auto-Sense Aiming

Wargear:
Astartes Power Armor, Frag and Krak Grenades, Astartes Bolt Pistol, Astartes Bolter

Options:
You may add up to 5 additional Space Marines to the unit for 40 points each.

The Space Marine Sergeant may replace his Astartes Bolter or Astartes Bolt PIstol with one of the following:
- Astartes Chainsword (5 pts)
- Astartes Power Sword (20 pts)
- Astartes Power Axe (30 pts)
- Power Fist (25 pts)[/list]

One Space Marine may replace his Astartes Bolter with one of the following:
- Flamer (5 pts)
- Meltagun (10 pts)
- Plasma Gun (20 pts)

If the unit numbers 10 models, one Space Marine may replace his Astartes Bolter with one of the following:
- Astartes Heavy Bolter (10 pts)
- Missile Launcher (15 pts)
- Plasma Cannon (15 pts)
- Multimelta (10 pts)
- Lascannon (25 pts)


Astartes Power Armor
Astartes Power Armor provides a 3+ armor save. The incredible durability of the main ceramite plates provides an additional 6+ Invulnerable save, representing the chance of deflecting even the deadliest weapons.

In addition, even the reinforced flexible armored joints are proof against basic or primitive weapons - a model in Astartes Power Armor may re-roll armor saves against any weapons or attacks with no AP value.

Auto-Sense Aiming
A Space Marine interfaces seamlessly with the Auto-Senses within his Astartes Power Armor, allowing him to shoot with unerring accuracy even on the move. Any roll to hit of a 6 with any ranged weapon type has the Ignores Cover special rule.


Astartes Weapons

Astartes Bolt Pistol
Range 12" Strength: 4 AP: 5 Type: Pistol Special: Shred

Astartes Bolter
Range 24" Strength: 4 AP: 5 Type: Assault 2 Special: Shred

Astartes Heavy Bolter
Range 36" Strength: 5 AP: 4 Type: Salvo 2/4 Special: Shred

Astartes Chainsword
Range - Strength: User AP: 5 Type: Melee Special: Shred

Astartes Power Sword
Range - Strength: User AP: 3 Type: Melee Special: Parry

Astartes Power Axe
Range - Strength: User+1 AP: 2 Type: Melee Special: Slow

Parry:
You may force one enemy model in base to base with a model armed with a Parry weapon to re-roll one successful roll to hit during Close Combat.

Slow:
Attacks with this weapon strike at Initiative 2.

Should be able to take camo cloaks, and bring additional ammunition types for the right job like stern guard.
also take med kits, (fnp)
be able infiltrate/outflank/scout?

And must use these models: http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=77_107

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Codex_-_Knights_Inductor aka the Reasonable Marines.

 King Pariah wrote:
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Codex_-_Knights_Inductor aka the Reasonable Marines.

That's cool and all but not really the same thing. Those look like GW's marines with different wargear. I'm shooting for "Black Library" rules that reflect the fluff/stories more without straying into complete silliness like Movie Marines. Maybe I should retitle this to "Black Library Marines"?

Yeah, uh, I think there are some problems with the method.

The first example is the stats. BS5 is a bigger number than BS4, but does a bs5 sergeant really play as more "black library," or even as more powerful? I think if you put bs5 sergeants in regular tactical squads, it would barely be worth a points increase.

Ld10 is also a bigger number than Ld8. It is not really more accurate, and with ATSKNF, it is not even more powerful.

A2, W2, re-rolling armor savings against AP-, and two ccw make this unit fairly good in hand to hand. They are still shooting bs4 bolters, but now fewer of them since they are more expensive. This unit is not going to play like a tactical squad.

So you could come up with a bunch of rules to improve shooting. However, you are just doing the same bad thing as you were, which is making up buffs and special rules, with the same essential reasoning that bigger numbers are bigger numbers.

Example: a '"real" chainsword' has ap5, and a regular chainsword does not have ap5. The reasoning seems to be that this makes a chainsword more powerful, when really it just means it is something to pay points for but is not really useful, so might never be taken.

I'm not entirely sure I follow you. I mean if it's an issue of points being out of line, so be it, they're just a guess at the value of the unit since I have barely play-tested this. In fact I would recommend playing them more like Movie Marines and not even worrying about point values so much, it's just for fun.

Yeah shooting is not buffed very heavily. Yes some of the upgrades might not be worth the points I list.

But they're far more durable, a little shootier, and more deadly in melee. I don't get what you're saying, increasing a stat or adding a flavorful special rule is by definition more powerful, even if only by a tiny bit. The cumulative effect, and the feel of the unit as you're playing it, is what I'm going for. If you're pitting them against the basic troops of other armies, they would be taking more damage and killing more enemies than a marine does currently. I think that fits the fluff as presented by the Black Library - adjust point values however you want to make it fair.

Is there some other method you would suggest to make each individual marine feel more powerful on the tabletop?

Edit: Just so you know, not trying to be snarky. I totally welcome criticism. But I literally have no idea what you're getting at. If you disagree with the concept of increasing a unit's/weapon's stats, and you don't think it makes sense to add more special rules, you've ruled out every method of changing a unit or making a new unit short of DECREASING their stats or REMOVING rules. I'm really curious what you meant by all that.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah, uh, I think there are some problems with the method....

What...... You totally missed the point.

The idea was to create marines that are more representative of all the literature within the bounds of a 40k game.

If you have ever played Inquisitor you will understand- a single vanilla marine will kill an entire platoon of guardsmen without breaking a sweat unless one of them gets lucky and crits him in the eye. The marine will run straight through lasfire and collapse in the Lt's ribcage with a single punch. By contrast- one marine vs 20 guard in 40k is a silly match up and the marine will lose quite handily.

Id say even these rules are extremely underpowered

Other words you want 2+ armour, 5+ invul, 'Real' bolters (Strength 5, Ap 4, Salvo 2/3) with 'Real' chainswords (AP 5, shred, armourbane) and you want to buff strength to 5. 1 in 5 can take a heavy weapon, 1 in 5 can take a special. They all stay the same except the heavy bolter becomes salvo 1/4 at strength 6. Power axe should half I rounding up. Parry should be a marine may substitute one of his attacks to subtract an attack from an infantry model in base contact. Sergeants get + 1 I. Done, super marines who aren't OP (Still die like girls to plasma fire) but kick ass in every aspect of the fighting.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Other words you want 2+ armour, 5+ invul, 'Real' bolters (Strength 5, Ap 4, Salvo 2/3) with 'Real' chainswords (AP 5, shred, armourbane) and you want to buff strength to 5. 1 in 5 can take a heavy weapon, 1 in 5 can take a special. They all stay the same except the heavy bolter becomes salvo 1/4 at strength 6. Power axe should half I rounding up. Parry should be a marine may substitute one of his attacks to subtract an attack from an infantry model in base contact. Sergeants get + 1 I. Done, super marines who aren't OP (Still die like girls to plasma fire) but kick ass in every aspect of the fighting.

Does this mean that terminators get rerollable saves now?

They get a 3+ on 2d6 This save is made totally void by genestealers, just like in the fluff!

increasing a stat or adding a flavorful special rule is by definition more powerful,

Look at the pricing of a company champion in a fifth edition marine command squad when he first appeared. For the price of a power weapon, he gets a power weapon and some other bonuses.

He gets ws5, which means his attacks hit more often. If he were an independent character, it would also mean that models with ws5 hit him on a 4+ instead of a 3+. He didn't get that bonus, because the attacks were rolled against the unit instead of the champion.

Independent characters going from ws4 to ws5 hit space marines 33% more often. However, increasing the company champion's ws only improves the same performance of his unit by 7%. Since it is already a unit with good attacks and cc weapons, that bonus is not a factor in deciding whether to use the unit in close combat, the way it would be in say, an imperial guard squad. The ws bonus is not in any real sense more powerful.

Or, you could just say it is like changing a ld6 unit to ld10 when it already has fearless. It helps sometimes, but not enough to count.

and the feel of the unit as you're playing it, is what I'm going for.

I do not think that is what you are getting, though. This unit is really good in close combat. Giving it a lascannon is like giving a unit of howling banshees three lascannons completely for free. I'm still not going to ever shoot those lascannons.

Look at Death Guard. They are supposed to be extremely good at using bolters. However, plague marines are not better than tactical marines at shooting, and way better in close combat.

Is there some other method you would suggest to make each individual marine feel more powerful on the tabletop?

Yeah. Tactical squads are supposed to act a certain way. figure that out, and then figure out how to make them act that way on the tabletop. e.g., don't give them three attacks in close combat when their specific purpose, given to them by roboute guilliman, is to stay out of close combat so they can threaten multiple enemies at the same time instead of having to fight only the models that are directly in front of them.

pelicaniforce wrote:

increasing a stat or adding a flavorful special rule is by definition more powerful,

Look at the pricing of a company champion in a fifth edition marine command squad when he first appeared. For the price of a power weapon, he gets a power weapon and some other bonuses.

He gets ws5, which means his attacks hit more often. If he were an independent character, it would also mean that models with ws5 hit him on a 4+ instead of a 3+. He didn't get that bonus, because the attacks were rolled against the unit instead of the champion.

Independent characters going from ws4 to ws5 hit space marines 33% more often. However, increasing the company champion's ws only improves the same performance of his unit by 7%. Since it is already a unit with good attacks and cc weapons, that bonus is not a factor in deciding whether to use the unit in close combat, the way it would be in say, an imperial guard squad. The ws bonus is not in any real sense more powerful.

Or, you could just say it is like changing a ld6 unit to ld10 when it already has fearless. It helps sometimes, but not enough to count.

and the feel of the unit as you're playing it, is what I'm going for.

I do not think that is what you are getting, though. This unit is really good in close combat. Giving it a lascannon is like giving a unit of howling banshees three lascannons completely for free. I'm still not going to ever shoot those lascannons.

Look at Death Guard. They are supposed to be extremely good at using bolters. However, plague marines are not better than tactical marines at shooting, and way better in close combat.

Is there some other method you would suggest to make each individual marine feel more powerful on the tabletop?

Yeah. Tactical squads are supposed to act a certain way. figure that out, and then figure out how to make them act that way on the tabletop. e.g., don't give them three attacks in close combat when their specific purpose, given to them by roboute guilliman, is to stay out of close combat so they can threaten multiple enemies at the same time instead of having to fight only the models that are directly in front of them.

You have a very good point about shooting. The unit should be balanced, and be an equal threat at range and up close.

Aside: They aren't really for ranged combat only, there's a reason they're the last step in advancement within a battle company after devastator and assault squads. Even in the modern military, the best way for infantry to take a position is to suppress it and then clear it by moving through it. Space Marines are shock troops. They're designed to get in your face and kill you, and by the fluff they should be very good at it, especially in melee.

Anyway, ALEXisAWESOME had some really good suggestions in my opinion. Salvo bolter weapons, maybe with higher strength. Shred on chainswords.

However, pelicaniforce, I think the rest of your logic is pretty confused. Because an improvement is only a 7% improvement, it isn't worth doing at all? Because a unit's leadership is used only occasionally, there's no reason to improve it? I really think you're the one missing the point of the thought exercise here - individual marines that are tougher and more deadly than they are in the codex. You don't advocate any stat increases because taken in isolation, each one is only a small change. You don't support additional special rules for shooting for whatever reason because it's the wrong method. You're literally advocating making no changes - or maybe my suggested rules aren't extreme enough? Help me out here. Offer an idea.

If you have ever played inquisitoryou'd know, it doesn't matter if its an assault marine or a devastator, all space marines are genetically enhanced to the point each one can slaughter a squad of guardsmen if he makes combat. Your not getting what he wants to do, he is totally forgetting what is already the rules for space marines, and is making his own based on what he has read. IF he was to make a deathguard unit, he would make them better with bolters, but that's not what he is doing. He has made a (Fairly underpowered, a Krak missile still ruins there day) squad which is fairly expensive and shows there superhuman nature over the standard guardsmen. Although I personally think he should of ramped up there shooting role as well, I have the strangest feeling he has been playing lots of 'Space marine' the game lately

I like pretty much everything here, but one thing I wanted to say specifically was that I really liked the Power Axe change.

Sure, at AP2 and +1 Str you can't really expect to move at the same initiative as a regular power weapon for the same cost, but I think they should move quicker than powerfists and thunderhammers, which are meant to be super heavy and slow. Axes are probably a little too top heavy to be wielded in as nimble a manner as a sword, but they certainly can be wielded one handed, and from a game balance perspective, aren't dishing out ID like PF and TH, unless you're starting at Str5 (rare) and facing T3.

you say " increasing a stat or adding a flavorful special rule is by definition more powerful."

The case study is that a model can take a power weapon for x points, or a power weapon with an increased stat and flavorful special rule for the same x points.

The best inference is that the point costs are the same because it is an example of "a stat or added flavorful special rule" that are irrelevant to the way the unit plays.

So this idea of piling rules upon rules to make things better is not only gross, it is linear.

/grōs/
adjective
1.
unattractively large or bloated.


Think about taking a regular GW tactical squad, and trying to make it better at "shooting" by giving marines bs5. Its primary characteristic stops being its bolters or armor save, and starts being a talent for using heavy weapons and meltaguns.



Here is my help. At the moment, your Black Library tactical squad is just a different type of unit. It is like seeing an army of termagants and deciding to deal with it one way, or an army of tyranid warrior broods and deciding to deal with it a different way. All they are is big. The point of marines is that they are shock troops that you are very afraid of getting close to you.

Here is my idea. Set up people to play fifteen games against your Black Library marines, and set up people to play fifteen games against marines that cost an extra four points per model and reroll all rolls to wound with bolters and regular close combat attacks.

I think the feeling of fighting the black library marines is just a calculation of how many krak missiles, et al, it will take to win, and the feeling of fighting the reroll marines is a panic over how to keep them at arms' length so you can shoot them without being annihilated.

In other words, stop giving them things that make them have more things, and only give them things that makes fighting them feel like fighting space marines.

Ld10 can go, as can the "real" close combat weapons, the boosted sergeant stats, and combat tactics.

Everything else is very frightening. I like the power armor and auto senses. However, I still think of them more as Nobs, i.e. a specific troop type that just needs to be handled a certain way, than as something that will rip me apart.

Black Library bolters either are AP 3 or Marine Armour has a 5+ save since they go right through power armor every time.

pelicaniforce wrote:
you say " increasing a stat or adding a flavorful special rule is by definition more powerful."

The case study is that a model can take a power weapon for x points, or a power weapon with an increased stat and flavorful special rule for the same x points.

The best inference is that the point costs are the same because it is an example of "a stat or added flavorful special rule" that are irrelevant to the way the unit plays.

So this idea of piling rules upon rules to make things better is not only gross, it is linear.

Even in your case study about a company champion you admitted there was a marginal increase in utility of the unit. Giving a company champion several close combat benefits on top of a power weapon, for the same cost as a power weapon, does not mean those benefits are meaningless simply because Games Workshop chose to price them identically. Either the power weapon alone is overvalued or the combat shield etc. are undervalued, but there IS a difference in how the unit plays, because the Company Champion is slightly better in melee than a veteran with a power sword. Thanks for the dictionary definition, by the way.

Think about taking a regular GW tactical squad, and trying to make it better at "shooting" by giving marines bs5. Its primary characteristic stops being its bolters or armor save, and starts being a talent for using heavy weapons and meltaguns.

Fair point. Although from what I can tell, people often use tactical marines as either scoring bodies or ablative wounds for special weapons or power fists anyway. An across the board boost in BS would make them deadlier in all respects, and having them babysit a lascannon would still a waste unless you were planning on parking them on an objective all along.

Here is my idea. Set up people to play fifteen games against your Black Library marines, and set up people to play fifteen games against marines that cost an extra four points per model and reroll all rolls to wound with bolters and regular close combat attacks.

I think the feeling of fighting the black library marines is just a calculation of how many krak missiles, et al, it will take to win, and the feeling of fighting the reroll marines is a panic over how to keep them at arms' length so you can shoot them without being annihilated.

In other words, stop giving them things that make them have more things, and only give them things that makes fighting them feel like fighting space marines.

This is where you totally lose me. I don't see how paying extra points for Shred on their bolters and close combat attacks, just a small increase in damage output against soft targets, and no increase in durability, would make them play more like space marines. If anything they're more of a glass cannon. No matter what you do, it's always going to come down to a calculation of how many shots it takes to win. Giving them this rule is also a thing that makes them have more things - as is anything anyone will suggest. It's sort of inherent - you're either boosting stats or you're adding rules if you want to make a unit more powerful.

Ld10 can go, as can the "real" close combat weapons, the boosted sergeant stats, and combat tactics.

Ok, at least this is concrete. You're right, Ld10 and combat tactics may as well be rolled into "may choose to pass or fail any Morale check", like Calgar's 5th Ed. ability. Boosted sergeant stats hardly matter I suppose, but it's not like they hurt anything either. "Real" close combat weapons is virtually identical to your suggestion to re-roll wounds in melee, except it only affects the sergeant.

Everything else is very frightening. I like the power armor and auto senses. However, I still think of them more as Nobs, i.e. a specific troop type that just needs to be handled a certain way, than as something that will rip me apart.

Thank you. I think the power armor in particular works the way I'd like it to, but the auto-senses can probably be slimmed down to "hits on a 6 ignore cover", and a Salvo type bolter and heavy bolter would cover the rest.

In the end though, they're always going to be a specific troop type that needs to be handled a certain way. It's how the game goes. Nobs will rip you apart too if you don't handle them right. But I think Nobs act the way they should on the table. The whole thought exercise is just to make sure marines feel the same way.



TL;DR I'm editing the first post to clarify things and incorporate changes. Thanks for the replies!

I kind of remember the old "Movie Marines" rules and they had some extra things like "stand-ins" which I think were ablative wounds because they were basically stunt doubles. They were pretty silly to go with those rules, but have you considered doing special one off things like that?

Maybe allowing one member per five to be designated a "hero" or to have a "heroic moment" once per game or so many turns for X points or built into the cost? This could represent the main guy of the book, like Talos, Ventris, or Honsou, while also giving leeway for the supporting characters/archetypes people might like such as Xarl, Pasanius, or Grendel. While the whole squad is important, in any Black Library novel there only are two or three who get the brunt of the star time.

Could break it down into types of moments or types of character such as last stand, vengeance, savior or leader, melee, ranged, etc.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
you say " increasing a stat or adding a flavorful special rule is by definition more powerful."

The case study is that a model can take a power weapon for x points, or a power weapon with an increased stat and flavorful special rule for the same x points.

The best inference is that the point costs are the same because it is an example of "a stat or added flavorful special rule" that are irrelevant to the way the unit plays.

So this idea of piling rules upon rules to make things better is not only gross, it is linear.

Even in your case study about a company champion you admitted there was a marginal increase in utility of the unit. Giving a company champion several close combat benefits on top of a power weapon, for the same cost as a power weapon, does not mean those benefits are meaningless simply because Games Workshop chose to price them identically. Either the power weapon alone is overvalued or the combat shield etc. are undervalued, but there IS a difference in how the unit plays, because the Company Champion is slightly better in melee than a veteran with a power sword. Thanks for the dictionary definition, by the way.

Think about taking a regular GW tactical squad, and trying to make it better at "shooting" by giving marines bs5. Its primary characteristic stops being its bolters or armor save, and starts being a talent for using heavy weapons and meltaguns.

Fair point. Although from what I can tell, people often use tactical marines as either scoring bodies or ablative wounds for special weapons or power fists anyway. An across the board boost in BS would make them deadlier in all respects, and having them babysit a lascannon would still a waste unless you were planning on parking them on an objective all along.

Here is my idea. Set up people to play fifteen games against your Black Library marines, and set up people to play fifteen games against marines that cost an extra four points per model and reroll all rolls to wound with bolters and regular close combat attacks.

I think the feeling of fighting the black library marines is just a calculation of how many krak missiles, et al, it will take to win, and the feeling of fighting the reroll marines is a panic over how to keep them at arms' length so you can shoot them without being annihilated.

In other words, stop giving them things that make them have more things, and only give them things that makes fighting them feel like fighting space marines.

This is where you totally lose me. I don't see how paying extra points for Shred on their bolters and close combat attacks, just a small increase in damage output against soft targets, and no increase in durability, would make them play more like space marines. If anything they're more of a glass cannon. No matter what you do, it's always going to come down to a calculation of how many shots it takes to win. Giving them this rule is also a thing that makes them have more things - as is anything anyone will suggest. It's sort of inherent - you're either boosting stats or you're adding rules if you want to make a unit more powerful.

Ld10 can go, as can the "real" close combat weapons, the boosted sergeant stats, and combat tactics.

Ok, at least this is concrete. You're right, Ld10 and combat tactics may as well be rolled into "may choose to pass or fail any Morale check", like Calgar's 5th Ed. ability. Boosted sergeant stats hardly matter I suppose, but it's not like they hurt anything either. "Real" close combat weapons is virtually identical to your suggestion to re-roll wounds in melee, except it only affects the sergeant.

Everything else is very frightening. I like the power armor and auto senses. However, I still think of them more as Nobs, i.e. a specific troop type that just needs to be handled a certain way, than as something that will rip me apart.

Thank you. I think the power armor in particular works the way I'd like it to, but the auto-senses can probably be slimmed down to "hits on a 6 ignore cover", and a Salvo type bolter and heavy bolter would cover the rest.

In the end though, they're always going to be a specific troop type that needs to be handled a certain way. It's how the game goes. Nobs will rip you apart too if you don't handle them right. But I think Nobs act the way they should on the table. The whole thought exercise is just to make sure marines feel the same way.



TL;DR I'm editing the first post to clarify things and incorporate changes. Thanks for the replies!

Gotta ask, how would you stat out Terminators, Vehicles, and Dreadnoughts to make them in keeping with these rulls?

 piprinx wrote:
I kind of remember the old "Movie Marines" rules and they had some extra things like "stand-ins" which I think were ablative wounds because they were basically stunt doubles. They were pretty silly to go with those rules, but have you considered doing special one off things like that?

Maybe allowing one member per five to be designated a "hero" or to have a "heroic moment" once per game or so many turns for X points or built into the cost? This could represent the main guy of the book, like Talos, Ventris, or Honsou, while also giving leeway for the supporting characters/archetypes people might like such as Xarl, Pasanius, or Grendel. While the whole squad is important, in any Black Library novel there only are two or three who get the brunt of the star time.

Could break it down into types of moments or types of character such as last stand, vengeance, savior or leader, melee, ranged, etc.

Those are pretty good ideas (the "heroic moment"). I want to stay away from Movie Marines silliness, but having "main character" rules, like the Finest Hour rules in Apocalypse, would be cool.

As for Terminators etc, I'll have to think about it. Some things like Assault Marines and Devastators follow on pretty naturally from the Tac Squad, and in my opinion Dreadnoughts should just be Monstrous Creatures. Vehicles can stay more or less the same, except I think Extra Armor should be standard on Rhinos/Razorbacks at little to no cost increase. They're designed to get marines into the fight, they're crewed by marines, they probably have a rudimentary machine spirit - they shouldn't be dead in the water after a non-lethal hit.

I'll kick these ideas around. Feel free to make more suggestions!