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Looking at the recent GT results of the Nova Tournament, Tau dominated. Obviously divination with Tau is really good, but what does the stereotypical tau/ elder list look like and why is it so hard to beat?

From what that says, the top Tau lists were all allied with the farsight supplement for the additional Riptide/elite slot. First place was 4 Riptides from what I understand.

Why is it hard to beat?

Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

S8 AP2 IC is the main culprit and problem...

If any other race had something that gross the subsequent players would be beaten to death their models.. from my understanding that is..

But it's Tau, they deserve the time in the spotlight... for a while lol

I guess the analytical side of me is coming out a little bit, I see multiple riptides but it has to have back up what else is in those list.

 CKO wrote:
Looking at the recent GT results of the Nova Tournament, Tau dominated. Obviously divination with Tau is really good, but what does the stereotypical tau/ elder list look like and why is it so hard to beat?

Followed the link. This is slightly off topic but I'm floored that eight out of the top nine army's primary detachments were either Eldar or Tau. The number eight spot being Grey Knights, who were allied with Tau.

Reading further down the list, the vast majority of the armies played were from the newer, hardback 6th edition codexes, with the armies coming from older codexes, generally placing near the bottom.

I have very little experience with 6th edition, having not played for almost two years, and I have been poised to start a new army (chaos daemons), but I'm feeling a bit hesitant to drop a lot of money on an army that will likely get stomped by Eldar and Tau throughout this entire edition.

Are the big scary models (riptides and wraithknights) really that good? Are other tournament players seeing results like the ones in the above link?

 Carnage43 wrote:
From what that says, the top Tau lists were all allied with the farsight supplement for the additional Riptide/elite slot. First place was 4 Riptides from what I understand.

Why is it hard to beat?

Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

The top lists were not ALL allied tau/tau. One was but they were mostly taudar. One was eldar/DE. They're very snooty armies with tons of force multipliers. Tau commanders for rerolls and ignoring cover. Farseers for rerolls and ignoring cover. Ethereals for area buffs. Markerlights to boost bs and remove cover. Several tau units can take skyfire or interceptor.

Eldar add the most mobile scoring units in the game plus psychic buffs and debuffs. Riptides are very resilient and flexible with various nova charges. Add in all the force multipliers and with good target priority, they can take out the few units that can actually threaten them early on. After the main threats are gone, they paste your scoring units with str9 ap2 large blasts that ignore cover. They can contest and linebreak at the end.

They aren't unbeatable, but you'd need a mostly tailored list that may get eliminated by the other popular tournament builds on the way up the pairing ladder.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
From what that says, the top Tau lists were all allied with the farsight supplement for the additional Riptide/elite slot. First place was 4 Riptides from what I understand.

Why is it hard to beat?

Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

The top lists were not ALL allied tau/tau. One was but they were mostly taudar. One was eldar/DE.

The number 1, number 2, and number 4 lists were all Tau/Tau. 3 was straight Eldar, 5 was Eldar/Dark Eldar.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

They aren't unbeatable, but you'd need a mostly tailored list that may get eliminated by the other popular tournament builds on the way up the pairing ladder.

This is very true. And this is also the reason why Tau and Eldar are only a "problem" in tournaments. In friendly games you can - after being stomped - tailor your list to beat Eldar or Tau. For example I won a game with CSM against Tau when I used units that got into cc quickly. But I wouldn't have won with this against Necron or Tyranids.

 Carnage43 wrote:
From what that says, the top Tau lists were all allied with the farsight supplement for the additional Riptide/elite slot. First place was 4 Riptides from what I understand.

Why is it hard to beat?

Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

I was told that S8 AP2 large blasts with ML support was not worth it in any way. Not even if your army only has one ECPA riptide with the IA profile.

Are you suggesting that S8 AP2 large blasts with ML support is a tournament winner?!?!11

O'vesa, the Farsight Riptide is an IC. He has special equipment allowing 4d6 DtW to all units in 12". So there goes one big Riptide weakness.
EDIT: I apologize for the oversight. O'vesa cannot take the DtW gear. It has to be on a seperate Farsight Riptide.

Also, since he's an IC, he can join another Riptide and a Buff Commander from Tau Empire. Basically, with wound allocation tricks, markerlights, and PEN/MSSS/CNC, it's an extremely hard to kill unit that will be wiping you off the table in short order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Murenius wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

They aren't unbeatable, but you'd need a mostly tailored list that may get eliminated by the other popular tournament builds on the way up the pairing ladder.

This is very true. And this is also the reason why Tau and Eldar are only a "problem" in tournaments. In friendly games you can - after being stomped - tailor your list to beat Eldar or Tau. For example I won a game with CSM against Tau when I used units that got into cc quickly. But I wouldn't have won with this against Necron or Tyranids.

Well, I know I can tailor my list to beat Riptides. And I can tailor my list to kill Serpent spam. However, it's darn near impossible to build a list that consistently beats both. When you consider the fact that you still need to have game vs. Wraithwing and Flying Circus lists.. Well, good luck.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

Jesus Christ how horrifying, why does this even exist?

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

Jesus Christ how horrifying, why does this even exist?

Because the Tau got tired of getting their blue butts kicked all throughout 5e and early 6e.

This brings some interesting questions to the table: Can you simply ignore Riptides while focusing on their scoring units(my usual plan)?
Answer: NO! 4 of them with that IC Tide can mop you up if ignored, and apparently does.

How do we get around this? Moral checks? Instant death? Massed AP2 shooting? Assault? Where do we go from here?

What about the Screamer Council? that thing is the most durable death star ever.

 Brymm wrote:
This brings some interesting questions to the table: Can you simply ignore Riptides while focusing on their scoring units(my usual plan)?
Answer: NO! 4 of them with that IC Tide can mop you up if ignored, and apparently does.

How do we get around this? Moral checks? Instant death? Massed AP2 shooting? Assault? Where do we go from here?

The new Space Marine book seems to have the tools to kill riptides in Grav weaponry.

Now if only they could get there through the hellstorm of Riptide pieplate and Missile spam Broadside fire.

Seriously, Missilespam broadsides are scary, short of AV14, there's damn near nothing that survives a round of shooting from them, and they have the range to make you take multiple rounds. Oh and it's on two wound T5 2+ models that can easily get cover or invulnerable saves. And if I remember right, Broadsides can get stims..

Yeah, the best tactic seems to remain the same. Kill the troops and hide. If your codex has a way to get a 2++ rerollable unit, that should help immensly. Grav weapons will help once they come out.

In other news, I have respect for that SoB-player who won all games against Tau

Deal with Tau by killing all the markerlights first, then hide from the Riptides

 Thamor wrote:
Deal with Tau by killing all the markerlights first, then hide from the Riptides

I don't think that this is a bad strategy. That's the only way you CAN ignore the Riptides and expect to have anything left over. I like the Screamer-Star idea, but it really isn't a strategy. "Be unkillable" is probably good against just about everything.
How have flying big-daemons been doing against Tau/Riptides? What about Jaws of the World Wolf? The return (or did they ever leave?) of many Vendettas?

About 2 years ago everyone was complaing about gk and cron dominance. Those were the days.

What short memories everyone has

 Tyran wrote:
What about the Screamer Council? that thing is the most durable death star ever.

It has very poor damage output for its cost. Everything not the screamer star will get gunned down, with fatey's rerolls being the first target. Once the Grimoire fails then the screamer star will face ID large blasts.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
What about the Screamer Council? that thing is the most durable death star ever.

It has very poor damage output for its cost. Everything not the screamer star will get gunned down, with fatey's rerolls being the first target. Once the Grimoire fails then the screamer star will face ID large blasts.

I agree, doesn't seem to be "the answer" and is in fact far from it. It is just a different list.
In a way it seems okay because it will get into assault fast though.

 hippesthippo wrote:
O'vesa, the Farsight Riptide is an IC. He has special equipment allowing 4d6 DtW to all units in 12". So there goes one big Riptide weakness.

O'Vesa does not have the Medallion of Arthas Molas (SP) signature system, and you can not give it to him as the load outs for all the special IC cannot be modified. You would need a normal Farsight Riptide to get it.

The answer is to change the FAQ and not allow Riptides to be joined by an IC to form a unit.

I'm not sure Grav weapons are the answer because Riptides will intercept Sternguard in drop pods.and they can still get a 3++ on an overcharge.

 Kain wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
This brings some interesting questions to the table: Can you simply ignore Riptides while focusing on their scoring units(my usual plan)?
Answer: NO! 4 of them with that IC Tide can mop you up if ignored, and apparently does.

How do we get around this? Moral checks? Instant death? Massed AP2 shooting? Assault? Where do we go from here?

The new Space Marine book seems to have the tools to kill riptides in Grav weaponry.

Now if only they could get there through the hellstorm of Riptide pieplate and Missile spam Broadside fire.

Seriously, Missilespam broadsides are scary, short of AV14, there's damn near nothing that survives a round of shooting from them, and they have the range to make you take multiple rounds. Oh and it's on two wound T5 2+ models that can easily get cover or invulnerable saves. And if I remember right, Broadsides can get stims..

All tau suits are T4 save for Riptides(T6). The only way to get T5 on a suit is to get the Iridium Armor, which is a signature system (From Tau Empire Codex). I'm not sure if Vre Bsides have access to signature systems, but crisis suits and commanders do. (Edit: Vre Bsides do not have access to Signature Systems)

Bsides can easily get cover, but only get invuln saves from shield drones. The shield drones are 4++ unfortunately. (they no longer share the armor sv of the barer.) The invuln save is not conferred to the unit, so it does nothing to help against pie plates. Also due to how shooting works in 6th, you risk losing your shield drones on normal shooting, that wouldn't need an invuln save which would probably prompt a LD roll. :C

They do have access to stims, but at a cost of 15points. Bsides also can only get one suit system, and there are better suit systems than FNP.



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 Thamor wrote:
Deal with Tau by killing all the markerlights first, then hide from the Riptides

Well it certainly is a good strategy to start with. MLs are a force multiplier and make Riptide shooting really really scary, especially the IA profile.

You still have to deal with them though, but the shooting might not be as "spot on" without ML support. Although, i think the popular strategy is a marker commander that just JSJ himself and the drones. That'll be tough to catch.

You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Why is anyone surprised by this? Compared to CSM and DA, the Tau and Eldar are undercosted. I don't see the new marine book changing this at all.

I don't think grav weapons are going to fix this. The grav weapons will just be shot off the table first. The marine philosophy of mixing shooting and close combat is just kind of failing this edition.

 Kain wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

Jesus Christ how horrifying, why does this even exist?

Because the Tau got tired of getting their blue butts kicked all throughout 5e and early 6e.

Too true. Too true.

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Doesn't farsight have to be warlord to unlock the seven?

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

You sure can, and you're looking at 675 points for just those three. You need to bring troops too. With just three crisis suits, and no load out on them, the total comes out to be 744points. That's kind of pricey! : \

Your comment specifically stated O'Vesa had access to the medallion. Perhaps i misquoted it but that's what i thought you said. :|


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Doesn't farsight have to be warlord to unlock the seven?

I do not think so. You can take the Seven as a replacement of his normal bodyguard unit. I do not recall it saying that he had to be the warlord to get it. I could be wrong.

Edit: A quick google search of the rules makes no mention of Farsight needing to be the warlord. However he HAS to be "bought" to have access to the Seven, and you cannot field Farsight's 7 crisis bodyguards. (as they were replaced by one or more of the seven)

In my opinion, Farsight Enclave is ok (probably best suited as a BB ally and this tournament proves my theory right), but the IC, as cool as they are, are way to pricey, and lack customization for any decent list. They're also not optimized in the least, and cost the exact same amount of points as a normal crisis commander with the same gear. The only advantage any of the seven bring is their IC status and some signature systems that the army does not have access to due to the Signature System rules on pg 88 of the Enclave Codex.