Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sounds like tournaments need to have longer time slots.

 Zagman wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Actually, you cannot.

The Ebook was updated shortly after launch, to take O'Vesa you must take Farsight and he must be your Warlord. So, anyone that is taking O'Vesa must have Farsight as their Warlord and therefore Farsight Enclaves must be their Primary Detatchement. Anyone that is allying in two Riptides has an illegal list.

O'vesa doesn't count as an HQ or Elites choice. He's outside the FOC, just like Shas'vre bodyguards.

So you can take Farsight, O'vesa and another Riptide as an allied detachment (as long as you have your required 3 man Crisis troops team as well but who wouldn't take that?)

EDIT: Misread your point about Farsight having to be the Warlord. My copy doesn't seem to have that update...

Or fewer rounds, or small points limits.

Tournaments are trying to pack in more rounds. My first GT was 5 rounds back in 2010 and NOVA 2013 was 8?

Personally, I'd rather play 5 rounds at 1500pts with battle points deciding the winner after a natural, random game ending. Playing 8 rounds at 2,000pts where you only finish 4-5 turns each time is a big turn off for me.

The trick is everyone wants something different from their experience than the next guy and it's impossible to please everyone.

The result as someone pointed out above is people move towards elite armies as a result, and Tau and Eldar are very well equipped to table elite armies.

I've played 4 casual games and 7 tournament games with the new Eldar since release and only lost once. That was to a typhus zombie horde that got up in my grill quickly. Almost lost to a foot guard list too, but my dice were better. Every game vs marines or other elite armies was definitely "easy mode".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Actually, you cannot.

The Ebook was updated shortly after launch, to take O'Vesa you must take Farsight and he must be your Warlord. So, anyone that is taking O'Vesa must have Farsight as their Warlord and therefore Farsight Enclaves must be their Primary Detatchement. Anyone that is allying in two Riptides has an illegal list.

O'vesa doesn't count as an HQ or Elites choice. He's outside the FOC, just like Shas'vre bodyguards.

So you can take Farsight, O'vesa and another Riptide as an allied detachment (as long as you have your required 3 man Crisis troops team as well but who wouldn't take that?)

Again, no.

In order to unlock the named enclaves characters, you MUST take farsight and he MUST be warlord. To do that, he MUST be in your primary detachment.

Farsight only needs to be your warlord if he is in your primary detachment if he is an ally then that sentence does not apply. The O'vesa star is RAW legal. Do you think the vast majority of tournaments would allow illegal lists?

 FirePainter wrote:
Farsight only needs to be your warlord if he is in your primary detachment if he is an ally then that sentence does not apply. The O'vesa star is RAW legal. Do you think the vast majority of tournaments would allow illegal lists?

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

TBH I'm surprised nobody was running a 60 corndog list at NOVA. Seems to me 3 maxed out units with ap2 heralds would be an auto-win vs Tau. 120 wounds with 5++ and one unit at 3++, all able to assault turn 2 is too much for Tau to handle. They have a huge footprint able to hit multiple units at once and sweep riptides with ease.

It's a lot of points, but so are 5 FMC's and Tau handle those much easier. Seems like many players have gone from max troops early in the edition to min troops now with max HQ/fast/elite/heavy killing power.

I've yet to lose a game against the Tau. I had one that almost turned into a stalemate against my Nurlge Army becaue I just wasn't killing things quickly enough to advance to mid-table in a timely fashion...

The best thing that I can say to all you players out there who are struggling to win against the Tau / Eldar... read their rulebooks. That may sound silly but I promise you it will make a difference. A sad fact about this hobby is that while there are some genuinely well-thought adults that play and take it seriously (in that they are respectful of other players and mindful that it is ultimately still a game), there are also lots of silly kids and twenty-somethings out there that just don't get it. They skim through their own rulbooks and slap a force together to go crazy on the table with.

I've never seen (literally never) a Tau Player who knew his own codex well enough to go a turn without having me correct him on something important enough that I didn't just let it slide (and I let a lot of things slide). That probably sounds like I am just being hateful to tau players but the truth of the matter is that their codex is brim full of odd special rules and has more wargear options per unit than any other army. They are more complicated than other forces and while that may not bother some folks, it can be easy to overlook certian things. How do I know this? becuase despite my general dislike of the Tau and my own disinterest in ever playing them, I own the codex. Partly becuase I am a collector and partly because I like to know the rules I am likely to be up against.

The Tau are not a difficult force to face on the table. 6e has really made poison valuable by handing out higher T values to pretty much everyone. They are the order of the day and I honestly can't think of a reason why at least some poison shouldn't be present in all lists.

I remember long ago when I first started playing and everytime I put a Land Raider on the table people who sigh and mutter under their breath about how cheesy it was. How inconvenient it was for them that they were facing a model they couldn't just ignore and that wouldn't go down in a single round of shooting.

Well... Riptides & Wraithknights are the new Land Raiders. They are not the most effective or the most killy units on the table, but they have a way of demanding players attention. That can't really be ignored, and you can't spend all your resources trying to bring them down... so what's to be done?

You have to stike the right balance of waring them down and not neglecting the rest of the enemy's army. They are not cheap units so they factor into what that player can put with it in his list... which wwill likely be smaller for it. Posioned weapons will deal the 1-2 wounds per turn you need in small doses that let your oppenant know that he can't just plant a big tough guy in your face and let it do as it likes. 2 turns of that and he's lost. By tossing a little bit of concentrated and effective firepower into that model you free up the rest of your list to take on his remaining forces (which you will almost assuredly outnumber unless you are bringing a bad-bad of your own).

Sorry for the strange typos. I am trying a new bluetooth keyboard and its way to tiny for my massive, giant-hands

 Tyran wrote:
What about the Screamer Council? that thing is the most durable death star ever.

When you don't get the 2++ once every 9 games, its hard for a list like that to win a GT. They can win a RTT easy, but given enough time they will have their 'bad game'.

Also, there is that one game where the grimoire will fail, and the screamers will fall.

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Forgive me I was under the impression that, while you must have farsight to have the any of the eight, that there was no requirement for this to be in primary detachment. So your version of the supplement means that you cannot take farsight in an allied detachment at all as he must be the warlord?

 FirePainter wrote:

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Forgive me I was under the impression that, while you must have farsight to have the any of the eight, that there was no requirement for this to be in primary detachment. So your version of the supplement means that you cannot take farsight in an allied detachment at all as he must be the warlord?

As the OP this rule discussion is unwanted please take it somewhere else.

Back on topic: Riptides only have 2 attacks at ws 2 tying them up in combat is an option correct?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
TBH I'm surprised nobody was running a 60 corndog list at NOVA. Seems to me 3 maxed out units with ap2 heralds would be an auto-win vs Tau. 120 wounds with 5++ and one unit at 3++, all able to assault turn 2 is too much for Tau to handle. They have a huge footprint able to hit multiple units at once and sweep riptides with ease.

It's a lot of points, but so are 5 FMC's and Tau handle those much easier. Seems like many players have gone from max troops early in the edition to min troops now with max HQ/fast/elite/heavy killing power.

Ethereals can give a 12" aura of Stubborn and the Buffmander can also give Stubborn to himself (which confers to his unit). Investing 1230+ points in dogs leaves little or no points left for shooting away the Kroot bubble wrap. At a minimum you're probably looking at eating two full turns of shooting and then two full overwatches (once for the Kroot screen and again after the screen is gone). The Ovesastar will then have thrusters to escape via Hit & Run.

I do agree that Tau have a much harder time dealing with rush lists than the flying circus though.

 FirePainter wrote:

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Forgive me I was under the impression that, while you must have farsight to have the any of the eight, that there was no requirement for this to be in primary detachment. So your version of the supplement means that you cannot take farsight in an allied detachment at all as he must be the warlord?

No, Farsight is still available to be selected as an HQ in an allied detachment, but his special Farsight Commander Team is only available if Farsight is your Warlord which makes it impossible for O'Vesa to be selected unless Farsight is the Warlord and Farsight Enclaves is your Primary Detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CKO wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Forgive me I was under the impression that, while you must have farsight to have the any of the eight, that there was no requirement for this to be in primary detachment. So your version of the supplement means that you cannot take farsight in an allied detachment at all as he must be the warlord?

As the OP this rule discussion is unwanted please take it somewhere else.

Back on topic: Riptides only have 2 attacks at ws 2 tying them up in combat is an option correct?

Riptides have 3 attacks, 2 when Smashing. Sending the Riptide into combat with just about anything is foolish as anything better in CC than naked tactical marines will sweep them. And I've even had one of mine swept by a tactical marine, notice the singular, a single tactical marine, not even a squad.

 Danny Internets wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
TBH I'm surprised nobody was running a 60 corndog list at NOVA. Seems to me 3 maxed out units with ap2 heralds would be an auto-win vs Tau. 120 wounds with 5++ and one unit at 3++, all able to assault turn 2 is too much for Tau to handle. They have a huge footprint able to hit multiple units at once and sweep riptides with ease.

It's a lot of points, but so are 5 FMC's and Tau handle those much easier. Seems like many players have gone from max troops early in the edition to min troops now with max HQ/fast/elite/heavy killing power.

Ethereals can give a 12" aura of Stubborn and the Buffmander can also give Stubborn to himself (which confers to his unit). Investing 1230+ points in dogs leaves little or no points left for shooting away the Kroot bubble wrap. At a minimum you're probably looking at eating two full turns of shooting and then two full overwatches (once for the Kroot screen and again after the screen is gone). The Ovesastar will then have thrusters to escape via Hit & Run.

I do agree that Tau have a much harder time dealing with rush lists than the flying circus though.

Ahh I forgot about stubborn. Even still, the NOVA champion didn't bring an ethereal. The buffmander is good no doubt, but stubborn isn't fearless and it'll still fail eventually. And they hit-and-run on a 3/4 under? Also far from reliable. The top list only had 10 kroot so not much to bubble wrap with. Blocking with skyrays was about the closest thing. I watched most of the live streaming games and bubble wrap in general was lacking. Seems like people went for overwhelming firepower in hopes that assault would be minimal.

I was really surprised by the commonality of all the lists actually. Tau with several riptides and missile sides. Taudar with serpents. Eldar/DE with baron's seer council. Daemons with max flyers or flyers + screamers. Probably the most common theme was elite armies with Darkwynn's eldar and Hulksmash's IG having the most bodies. But even then no super fast assault units aside from FMC's. Seems like beasts and cavalry are really good counters to both Tau and Eldar right now and most people jumped on the bandwagon rather than build a counter-meta list.

I know Target won Killadaelphia/ETC with ~120 kroot and triptides but I never saw his list or army on live stream.

The person who mentioned reading your opponent's codex is spot on too. I've watched/read enough battles to know even top bracket players make mistakes. Tau units that fire interceptor cannot shoot during their next shooting phase guys, pay attention! Battle focus must happen before or after an eldar unit shoots; don't let them do all their focus moves at the end of the phase. Keep track of marker light tokens and warp charges and keep your opponents honest. Tau are very good if you play into their hands, but not an auto-win army.

 Zagman wrote:

Riptides have 3 attacks, 2 when Smashing. Sending the Riptide into combat with just about anything is foolish as anything better in CC than naked tactical marines will sweep them. And I've even had one of mine swept by a tactical marine, notice the singular, a single tactical marine, not even a squad.

I often use my Riptide(s) to kill Daemon Princes in cc. I kick in the 3+ invu, go for the Smash, and if the Dp doesn't have Iron Arm, he is good as dead. I've found Riptides to be pretty decent in melee with their good armor - they can hold up nearly anything that doesn't have AP2 or poisoned/fleshbane melee attacks.

To the Cornhounds: S8 pie plates vs. massed T4 W2 hounds? Count me unimpressed ...

But riptides hit princes on 5+, wound on 2+ with smash, and still need to bypass the invuln. A far cry from "as good as dead".

Hounds come in packs of 20 and with proper spacing you'll only hit ~4 and kill 2-3 after wounding and saves. They scout 12" turn 1, move 12" + run, and assault turn 2. So you get 1 maybe 2 shooting phases to kill 6 or so dogs out of 60 per riptide.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
But riptides hit princes on 5+, wound on 2+ with smash, and still need to bypass the invuln. A far cry from "as good as dead".

Hounds come in packs of 20 and with proper spacing you'll only hit ~4 and kill 2-3 after wounding and saves. They scout 12" turn 1, move 12" + run, and assault turn 2. So you get 1 maybe 2 shooting phases to kill 6 or so dogs out of 60 per riptide.

This has been my experience with Riptides. The only thing I've ever seen a Riptide contribute to a game is when I rolled a lucky "hit" on my scatter dice and killed enough space marines to cause a morale check which they failed and ran off the table. I used my Tyranids against a 3 Riptide list the other day and my swarmlord may have taken a wound or two from them and then he killed 1 gant... I was puppet mastering one every turn and I only killed a single firewarrior with his TL plasma.

Trust a Tyranid player, you must have marker lights to make these guys good because BS 3 is NOT reliable. You must also pile on the Tau puretide chip special rules because str 7 ap 2 isn't cool nor is a str 8 ap 2 large blast.

How many people do you see on here advocating battle cannons or demolisher cannons? They look like they'd hit a lot but often times they hit 4 or few models.

How do you propose getting into combat with Riptides so easily? 60" range, plus JSJ makes that a little difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the top list had 20 Kroot and the Buff Commander can give stubborn, I'm pretty sure.

How many Battle Cannons and Demolisher Cannons can get boosted to BS 5+ and Ignore cover?

And aren't Demolisher Cannons 24" range and on a vehicle and therefore much easier to kill?

Unless you're playing apoc, a fast vehicle with a 24" range gun and a guy with a 60" range gun are approximately the same.

For the cost of a Riptide and enough markerlights to make him BS 5+ and ignore cover I can probably buy two vindicators.

I don't think the buff commander can. However, he's leadership 10.

Kroot snipers are fun... I had a group of them with a buff commander glance a dreadnought to death over the course of a game because I didn't really want to shoot at GK terminators lol.

Since when were Vindicators fast?

 hippesthippo wrote:
How do you propose getting into combat with Riptides so easily? 60" range, plus JSJ makes that a little difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the top list had 20 Kroot and the Buff Commander can give stubborn, I'm pretty sure.

Actually the more I think about it, the more appealing it sounds for daemons. Tau love going first so let him. Watch him set up first and deploy your hounds directly across from riptides then scout them up 12". He gets 1 turn to shoot then you move another 12" and assault 2d6" with rerolls. In DoW deployment that's a guaranteed first turn assault. Maybe turn 2 in the other deployments but you're also boxing him in which is great for objective missions and linebreaker. JSJ is not that much as they'll move 6" and then jump 7" on average. Hounds scout 12 and move 12 ignoring terrain with rerolls for fleet.

Stubborn can actually work against tau as if the dogs are locked, then they aren't getting shot.

Hi guys, just felt like chiming in:

the tidestar hit/runs on farsights init 5, so its extremely reliable. I still failed it game 7 and almost lost the game because of it...thankfully ovesa and the burst tide managed to smash down a wraithknight in cc in subsequent rounds. I too was surprised by the lack of deamon cav-focused lists. And I only fought 5 flyers all weekend taking the form of a pair of storm ravens and 3 night scythes. I wouldnt have been too worried about a more flyer-centric list as flyers arent that great vs riptides outside of stormravens and vendettas. My list has just enough marker support that even after the rays shoot their missiles off they can still make the tidestar really tear down flyers. No one really went after those things all weekend-they're the quiet heroes of my list! Thats really all i have for now I'll probably comment if anyone has any specific questions.

Thing about cavalry is you can just sit on the second story of a building, next to your objective and be completely immune to getting assaulted by them as, like old-school Daleks, they can't use stairs.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
But riptides hit princes on 5+, wound on 2+ with smash, and still need to bypass the invuln. A far cry from "as good as dead".

ÍChances doesn't really matter in this scenario, as the DP risks much more than the Riptide. Only one wound on the DP instagibs it while the Riptide can take 4. And the DP needs a 3+, 4+ and the Riptide has to fail his 5+ invu and FnP to take a single wound out of the 4. Maybe the Riptide can put only ~0.33 wounds on the DP but those are 0.33 GG NO RE wounds.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

Hounds come in packs of 20 and with proper spacing you'll only hit ~4 and kill 2-3 after wounding and saves. They scout 12" turn 1, move 12" + run, and assault turn 2. So you get 1 maybe 2 shooting phases to kill 6 or so dogs out of 60 per Riptide.

That 6 dogs should be enough. Cornhounds aren't great against Riptides anyway (1 Wound/Turn on charge), so those casualties will matter a lot. Not to mention that 320 points (20 hounds) to combat 225 is rather... uneconomical.

So I was thinking, is it actually a good idea to charge corndogs at a riptide? Those 20 corndogs have a huge footprint and even with pile in are unlikely to fully engage a riptide. I don't have the dog but they are 2" long right? so only the first row get to fight? If fully packed in the front arc that is only about 10 dogs fighting. To be generous lets say 15 get to attack, so 15 units, 3 attacks each, hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 6+ and failing the save on a 1, leaves only .833 wounds to the riptide. The riptide has ld 9 will most of the time pass. The riptide has 3 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and failing the save on a 4 or less. This means the riptide is also likely to do .833 wounds. So we are at a situation that the dogs may fail combat and if they do ld7 is a lot easier to fail. So what you are left with is a unit that is most likely not going to kill the riptide but has a pretty big chance of dying itself, or at least breaking combat and getting shot. Not to mention corn dogs are about 125pts more expensive than a riptide.

Charge everything with the dogs.

1) Go for massed sweeping advances

2) Go for the much easier to kill 'other-than-riptide' models

3) Stop them shooting at you

4) Stops you being markerlighted

5) Target Ethereal/Commander/Markerlights as priority.

Razerous wrote:
Charge everything with the dogs.

1) Go for massed sweeping advances

2) Go for the much easier to kill 'other-than-riptide' models

3) Stop them shooting at you

4) Stops you being markerlighted

5) Target Ethereal/Commander/Markerlights as priority.

This reminds me of this:

It is totally that simple !

I have killed plenty of Riptides with Dogs, via sweeping advances. It's all about a good multi charge.

Tau elite builds are not a difficult match up for Dog Pile style lists. It's the Kroot heavy lists that give the Dogs trouble. Because it adds an extra layer of overwatch and an extra shooting phase. I actually generally try to shoot holes in the Kroot with Fateweaver first; which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. The problem with that is that now Fateweaver is exposed and needs the Grimoire; making your Dogs more vulnerable.

Daemons versus Tau is one of the more complicated match ups in the game, imo, and entirely depends on what build you're running (for both sides)

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Since when were Vindicators fast?

Since the BA codex hit.