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BA are awesome

On-topic:
Maybe White Scars can help.
Outflanking Bikers with Grav-guns seem like a good anti-Riptide trick, especially when they are also scoring.
4+ cover and stronger HoW is great too!

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Since when were Vindicators fast?

Since the BA codex hit.

Ah, I had thought it was probably them but just wanted to make sure.

 lambsandlions wrote:
So I was thinking, is it actually a good idea to charge corndogs at a riptide? Those 20 corndogs have a huge footprint and even with pile in are unlikely to fully engage a riptide. I don't have the dog but they are 2" long right? so only the first row get to fight? If fully packed in the front arc that is only about 10 dogs fighting. To be generous lets say 15 get to attack, so 15 units, 3 attacks each, hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 6+ and failing the save on a 1, leaves only .833 wounds to the riptide. The riptide has ld 9 will most of the time pass. The riptide has 3 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and failing the save on a 4 or less. This means the riptide is also likely to do .833 wounds. So we are at a situation that the dogs may fail combat and if they do ld7 is a lot easier to fail. So what you are left with is a unit that is most likely not going to kill the riptide but has a pretty big chance of dying itself, or at least breaking combat and getting shot. Not to mention corn dogs are about 125pts more expensive than a riptide.

There is quite a lot wrong here.
1) It is almost certain that all 20 will get to attack, unless they go for a 12" charge or something silly like that.
2) They are WS5, riptides are either WS3 or WS2 (forget which). This means that dogs hit on a 3+, not a 5+, and the riptide will either hit on a 4+ or a 5+.
3) You have used mean averages, which do not really represent what would happen very well.
4) The maths you have given is also incorrect.
5) Riptides are also only S5, so wound on a 3+, not a 2+.

Given the above:
60 attacks
modal average = 61*(2/3)*(1/6)*(1/6)
= 1 wound is most likely result.

3 riptide attacks (assuming WS3)
modal average = 4*(1/2)*(2/3)*(2/3)
= 0 wounds is most likely result.

Ld9 - 1 is Ld8
Ld8 gives a 28% chance of breaking.

The riptide is not in good shape.

Kangodo wrote:

On-topic:
Maybe White Scars can help.
Outflanking Bikers with Grav-guns seem like a good anti-Riptide trick, especially when they are also scoring.
4+ cover and stronger HoW is great too!

You need 20 grav shots to kill a single Riptide, so unless you bring 10 bikers with grav guns (5 squads of bikers), they won't really do that much. But outflanking bikers could be a good idea. You just need to get a good angle on the Pathfinders and hope for the best while avoiding anything that has an EWO.

The new SM codex isn't exactly full with anti-Tau stuff that is both good and cost effective, but I've found Librarians (cheap Telepathy spam against Riptides) and Thunderfire Cannons (to kill the footsloggers) promising. 3 Librarians with drop podding Tacticals and 2-3 Thunderfire cannons should do the trick. Get some AA (Hunter or one of the flyers) and serious AT (MM attack bikes) and you can even call it a TAC list.

1) It is almost certain that all 20 will get to attack, unless they go for a 12" charge or something silly like that.
2) They are WS5, riptides are either WS3 or WS2 (forget which). This means that dogs hit on a 3+, not a 5+, and the riptide will either hit on a 4+ or a 5+.
5) Riptides are also only S5, so wound on a 3+, not a 2+.

1, Dogs have cavalry bases, so only two "circles" can attack if they completely surround the Riptide. That's actually some 16/17 models I guess? Again, with complete surrounding that won't be the case on charge. But it doesn't matter since if all 20 hounds reach the Riptide then something has already gone terribly wrong for the Tau player.
2, Riptides are WS2 but they will also have FnP.
5, Riptides are Strength 6.

The actual maths are:
Hounds: 60 attacks - 39.6 hits - 13.06 wounds - 2.09 actual wounds (after armour save) - 1.37 real wounds (after FnP)
Riptide: 3 attacks - 1 hit - 0.86 wounds - 0.56 real wounds (after invu save)
Time for the Daemon player to pray for the 28% chance of the Riptide failing its morale test. If the Riptide passes, you can wave goodbye to your 320 points because the 225 points Riptide will possibly tie them up for the rest of the game (0.44 real wounds without charging bonuses) and nobody could help out the hounds because they have to surround the Riptide, not giving a path to charge.

Why is everyone leaving out the jugger herald with an ap2 weapon?

 AtoMaki wrote:
You need 20 grav shots to kill a single Riptide, so unless you bring 10 bikers with grav guns (5 squads of bikers), they won't really do that much. But outflanking bikers could be a good idea. You just need to get a good angle on the Pathfinders and hope for the best while avoiding anything that has an EWO.

Hmm.. 5 wounds
5++ so 7.5 wounds needed
2+ to wound, so 9 hits
3+ to hit, so 13.5 shots needed.

One group of bikers has 6 shots, so that is enough to take away half his wounds.
That's quite good for a unit that is slightly above 90 points.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Why is everyone leaving out the jugger herald with an ap2 weapon?

Because pitting 320 points against 225 is roughly okay (very roughly). Pitting 450 against 225 isn't. Saying that you can take down a Riptide with your Cornhounds when they have a Herald with AP2 weapon, extra invu from Grimoire, extra invu from Warp Storm, Rage, they are re-rolling to-hit, the Riptide is T5 and must re-roll successful saves and whatsnot.... It is like saying that you can take down a Riptide simply by hitting it with a baseball-bat from the other side of the table .

Hmm.. 5 wounds
5++ so 7.5 wounds needed
2+ to wound, so 9 hits
3+ to hit, so 13.5 shots needed.

One group of bikers has 6 shots, so that is enough to take away half his wounds.
That's quite good for a unit that is slightly above 90 points.

You forget the FnP. Only crazy people take a Riptide without FnP.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Why is everyone leaving out the jugger herald with an ap2 weapon?

Because pitting 320 points against 225 is roughly okay (very roughly). Pitting 450 against 225 isn't. Saying that you can take down a Riptide with your Cornhounds when they have a Herald with AP2 weapon, extra invu from Grimoire, extra invu from Warp Storm, Rage, they are re-rolling to-hit, the Riptide is T5 and must re-roll successful saves and whatsnot.... It is like saying that you can take down a Riptide simply by hitting it with a baseball-bat from the other side of the table .

Hmm.. 5 wounds
5++ so 7.5 wounds needed
2+ to wound, so 9 hits
3+ to hit, so 13.5 shots needed.

One group of bikers has 6 shots, so that is enough to take away half his wounds.
That's quite good for a unit that is slightly above 90 points.

You forget the FnP. Only crazy people take a Riptide without FnP.

But that's not what I'm saying...

There's a lot of context in this thread, it's not a vacuous comparison between equal units. The OP referenced NOVA top lists which featured Tau, Eldar, and combinations including up to 4 riptides. The 4 riptide list had less than 30 models I believe and excelled at defeating wave serpents, FMC daemons, and elite armies in general.

So now (some of us) are discussing counter list ideas and throwing unit A against riptide B is a poor comparison. There are very few units in the game when taken in a vacuum (1 shooting or assault phase vs unit B) that can actually delete their target unit without assistance. Point comparisons are largely useless because it usually takes several units working together to kill entire units. Just like riptides need markerlights, buffmanders, or farseers to maximize their potential.

So if I wanted to build a TAC list that counters the Tau/Eldar dominance, I would consider something like this:
Herald of Khorne + juggernaut, greater reward
Herald of Khorne + juggernaut, greater reward
Herald of Tzeentch + disc, ml3, exalted reward
Herald of Tzeentch + disc, ml3, exalted reward
Flesh Hounds x20
Flesh Hounds x20
Screamers x9
Troops/support to fill the rest

So 3 fast deathstars that can box in riptides or wave serpents quickly and make assault by turn 1/2. Ap2 melee heralds. Disc heralds to grab grimoire, portal, and divination buffs.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

So now (some of us) are discussing counter list ideas and throwing unit A against riptide B is a poor comparison.

Well, you usually kill the Riptide by throwing Unit A at it, don't you? And in the meantime, you try to do it as well and cost-effective as possible. I suppose we can't just say that "My army steamrolls the Riptide, end of story!" because in the meantime, your opponent's army (other than the Riptide) will also do its best to prevent you from killing that thing. And I don't think that we can accurately simulate a whole battle too finally decide what army can beat a min/maxed Tau list. especially with Daemons who can self-destruct on their own and give away victory randomly because some bad rolls.

Yeah, 20 Cornehounds with support can beat a Riptide. But what if their support fails? What if external conditions make the Cornehounds useless (bad terrain, very good opponent, luck)? Can you give me a percentage on these things so we can determine if 20 Cornehounds with support can truly defeat a Riptide? I don't think that you can. And that's why we have this vacuum thing going on and the massive Mathammering. if a unit can beat another unit on its own then it counters it and everything else (bonuses from support) is just extra that makes the coutner even better (more point effective and thus eventually game winning).

 AtoMaki wrote:

1, Dogs have cavalry bases, so only two "circles" can attack if they completely surround the Riptide. That's actually some 16/17 models I guess? Again, with complete surrounding that won't be the case on charge. But it doesn't matter since if all 20 hounds reach the Riptide then something has already gone terribly wrong for the Tau player.
2, Riptides are WS2 but they will also have FnP.
5, Riptides are Strength 6.

1)The second circle would be circling around a circle much much larger in size, due to the added diameter (and therefore added circumference) of the first circle of hounds. 20 wouldn't be difficult with pile in moves.
2) Not everybody takes FnP, especially if they need points for something else. But ok I can roll with that.
3?) (you put "5", I'm assuming you meant "3" ) Fair enough, my tau friend will be happy that he misread that.

The actual maths are:
Hounds: 60 attacks - 39.6 hits - 13.06 wounds - 2.09 actual wounds (after armour save) - 1.37 real wounds (after FnP)
Riptide: 3 attacks - 1 hit - 0.86 wounds - 0.56 real wounds (after invu save)
Time for the Daemon player to pray for the 28% chance of the Riptide failing its morale test. If the Riptide passes, you can wave goodbye to your 320 points because the 225 points Riptide will possibly tie them up for the rest of the game (0.44 real wounds without charging bonuses) and nobody could help out the hounds because they have to surround the Riptide, not giving a path to charge.

I underlined the bits I don't like
As I mentioned in my previous post, mean averages are not an effective measure of expected result. They are best used for comparing two units at doing something specific, quickly, when modal averages are the same.
Modal averages give the *most likely* result, which makes them more useful for expected value mathematics.
So with the stat knowledge, and FnP (and furious charge and hatred, which I forgot last time), the actual *useful* maths is:

Hounds: 60 attacks, WS5 (with hatred) vs WS2, S5 (furious charge) vs T6, 2+, 5+ FnP:
61*(8/9)*(1/3)*(1/6)*(2/3) = 2 wounds

Riptide: 3 attacks, WS2 vs WS5, S6 vs T4, 5++
4*(1/3)*(5/6)*(2/3) = 0 wounds

Ld7 test === 42% chance to fail

(off the charge the hounds do 0 wounds, but they have a decent chance to do wounds)

The Riptide isn't looking very happy now.

Furthermore, this is a 1vs1 charge. The daemons player would be much more likely to multicharge against two riptides, or a riptide and some fire warriors. In case no.1, The unit has tied up more points than it is worth, with a decent chance to kill them. In case no.2, the hounds destroy the FW, sweeping everything.)

Edited for failquotes

Tactical_Genius wrote:

I underlined the bits I don't like

Don't worry, I only wrote "actual" and "real" because English is not my mother language and I couldn't make up a better term for "numbers of wounds after armour save" and "numbers of wounds after FnP" . The "possibly" only meant that maybe the Hounds win another round with some good luck, or maybe the Riptide wins through instability (the Riptide makes more wounds than the cornhounds wo/ charge).
As I mentioned in my previous post, mean averages are not an effective measure of expected result. They are best used for comparing two units

Tactical_Genius wrote:

So with the stat knowledge, and FnP (and furious charge and hatred, which I forgot last time), the actual *useful* maths is:

Hatred? Cornhounds only have Hatred with the Herald, and if the Herald is in then the number of Wounds dealt on the Riptide will increase anyway because of the AP2 melee weapon (i think it will be roughly +1 Wound).

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

I underlined the bits I don't like

Don't worry, I only wrote "actual" and "real" because English is not my mother language and I couldn't make up a better term for "numbers of wounds after armour save" and "numbers of wounds after FnP" . The "possibly" only meant that maybe the Hounds win another round with some good luck, or maybe the Riptide wins through instability (the Riptide makes more wounds than the cornhounds wo/ charge).
As I mentioned in my previous post, mean averages are not an effective measure of expected result. They are best used for comparing two units

Tactical_Genius wrote:

So with the stat knowledge, and FnP (and furious charge and hatred, which I forgot last time), the actual *useful* maths is:

Hatred? Cornhounds only have Hatred with the Herald, and if the Herald is in then the number of Wounds dealt on the Riptide will increase anyway because of the AP2 melee weapon (i think it will be roughly +1 Wound).

Oops I read daemon of khorne and somehow didnt read the "(daemons of slaanesh)" bit after hatred It's still two wounds though I think.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Oops I read daemon of khorne and somehow didnt read the "(daemons of slaanesh)" bit after hatred It's still two wounds though I think.

Not exactly. 60x0.66x0.33x0.16x0.66=1.37 Wounds

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Oops I read daemon of khorne and somehow didnt read the "(daemons of slaanesh)" bit after hatred It's still two wounds though I think.

Not exactly. 60x0.66x0.33x0.16x0.66=1.37 Wounds

Technically it's 61*(2/3)*(1/3)*(1/6)*(2/3) = 1.5
So one wound ('cos it's modal) BTW I didn't actually check when I said "still two" so my bad
But still a decent chance of two.

Anyway my tactical point still stands:
Just hounds multi-charge stuff, the units with heralds charge riptides and nom-nom them

Atomaki you make it sound as if taking down the riptides is impossible, what do you suggest?

 CKO wrote:
Atomaki you make it sound as if taking down the riptides is impossible, what do you suggest?

I know I'm not atomaki, but read my last post (specifically the end bit).
A herald of khorne with lesser reward (for axe of khorne), and the locus that gives hatred, in a big blob of doggies, will either kill or sweep a riptide almost every time, even with FnP.

 CKO wrote:
Atomaki you make it sound as if taking down the riptides is impossible, what do you suggest?

It is definitely not impossible, just very dependent on the unit opposing it. A Rune Priest with Jaws of the World Wolf instagibs the Riptide, a Destroyer Lord with MSS and Wraiths steamrolls it easily, Telepathy spam in general spells doom to that thing and Iron Arm+Warp Speed Daemon Princes make a mockery out of the Riptide.

In my experience, the Rune Priest is the very best option. Take a Rune Priest with Jaws in a Drop Pod and a squad of Grey Hunters and watch the Riptides fall. It is mostly fool-proof (EWO stuff can still mess up the unit) and nearly 100% deadly. Nearly any army can take Space Wolves as allies, so there it is, the perfect Riptide Removal Tool.

The grey knight heavy support monster can rip them up too. Land a wound, then force weapon. Killing monstrous creatures with your own monstrous creature..delicious irony.

I think that the Doom of Malan'tai or a Zoey bomb are great ways of dealing with the Riptides. Land real close (not risky thanks to Mycetic spore) and deploy 1" away to neutralize template overwatch. Then, the Tau player willl without fail panic and Intercept anyway, usually wasting shots on a 3++ unit with 4 or 6 wounds. 3d6 Leadership check or three will usually cause a few wounds or take all, and a Riptide with one wound left can easily be killed by a Flyrant or random wounds or assault. Of course, that is if you really need them dead. I'd rather target the ground troops and outlast him.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

So now (some of us) are discussing counter list ideas and throwing unit A against riptide B is a poor comparison.

Well, you usually kill the Riptide by throwing Unit A at it, don't you? And in the meantime, you try to do it as well and cost-effective as possible. I suppose we can't just say that "My army steamrolls the Riptide, end of story!" because in the meantime, your opponent's army (other than the Riptide) will also do its best to prevent you from killing that thing. And I don't think that we can accurately simulate a whole battle too finally decide what army can beat a min/maxed Tau list. especially with Daemons who can self-destruct on their own and give away victory randomly because some bad rolls.

Yeah, 20 Cornehounds with support can beat a Riptide. But what if their support fails? What if external conditions make the Cornehounds useless (bad terrain, very good opponent, luck)? Can you give me a percentage on these things so we can determine if 20 Cornehounds with support can truly defeat a Riptide? I don't think that you can. And that's why we have this vacuum thing going on and the massive Mathammering. if a unit can beat another unit on its own then it counters it and everything else (bonuses from support) is just extra that makes the coutner even better (more point effective and thus eventually game winning).

Also you have to take into account if he is only fielding one Riptide, all those lists at Nova were fielding 3-4. 20 Hounds may take out 1 but can they finish off 3-4, I think not.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

So now (some of us) are discussing counter list ideas and throwing unit A against riptide B is a poor comparison.

Well, you usually kill the Riptide by throwing Unit A at it, don't you? And in the meantime, you try to do it as well and cost-effective as possible. I suppose we can't just say that "My army steamrolls the Riptide, end of story!" because in the meantime, your opponent's army (other than the Riptide) will also do its best to prevent you from killing that thing. And I don't think that we can accurately simulate a whole battle too finally decide what army can beat a min/maxed Tau list. especially with Daemons who can self-destruct on their own and give away victory randomly because some bad rolls.

Yeah, 20 Cornehounds with support can beat a Riptide. But what if their support fails? What if external conditions make the Cornehounds useless (bad terrain, very good opponent, luck)? Can you give me a percentage on these things so we can determine if 20 Cornehounds with support can truly defeat a Riptide? I don't think that you can. And that's why we have this vacuum thing going on and the massive Mathammering. if a unit can beat another unit on its own then it counters it and everything else (bonuses from support) is just extra that makes the coutner even better (more point effective and thus eventually game winning).

Also you have to take into account if he is only fielding one Riptide, all those lists at Nova were fielding 3-4. 20 Hounds may take out 1 but can they finish off 3-4, I think not.

You're totally right, one unit of Hounds cannot defeat an entire Tau Army, lol.

Although generally a Dogpile list will involve more than just a single unit of Hounds. Obviously Tau are super strong, but I do think a Dogpile list has the tools to beat Tau (and maybe Eldar as well). That said, the weakness to Dogpile is that other Daemon builds annihilate it.

What would you say is the most competitve Tau/Farsight 1850 list is then?

Tau are strong. Tau aren't totally dominant.

40k doesn't have a real competitive meta in the same way that serious competitive games (DotA, CS, Street Fighter, M:tG, Starcraft) do, so what's popular and successful in tournaments basically just ends up being the flavor of the month rather than what's actually good. In practice there are many highly competitive builds that are now "off the beaten path" simply because of the fast Codex release schedule.

As a result, the field looks much more constrained than it actually is.

Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

IDK man, less than a thousand points gets you 36 Bikers with 12 Grav Guns (36 shots). That's cheap enough you could throw in a Rune Priest on a bike (Jaws for Tau, Runic Weapon for Daemons and Eldar), some Storm Talons (Drake insurance and general dakka), some Thunderfires (got even better), and whatever else you need.

Plus, BT can run a pretty insane T4 Horde....

Jury is still out

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

Jury is still out

I'm with Martel on this one...again. Before the new codex marines were scrapping the bottom of the tier list, in fact, they were third from last in the nova results, ahead of only orks and SoB.

Really, what has changed? The book is still 95% the same. The new units are marginal to poor, the old good units are more expensive/worse, and the old bad units are still not amazing. The only change that came out of left field was the thunderfire cannons getting barrage, making the best heavy support choice even better. Expect lots of marine armies with 3+ TF cannons.

Unless there is some manner of hidden uberlist that involves some truly bizarre combos, there's no way they are going to better than middle of the road competitive wise, and certainly won't challenge the necron/eldar/demon/tau power block.

 Carnage43 wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

Jury is still out

I'm with Martel on this one...again. Before the new codex marines were scrapping the bottom of the tier list, in fact, they were third from last in the nova results, ahead of only orks and SoB.

Really, what has changed? The book is still 95% the same. The new units are marginal to poor, the old good units are more expensive/worse, and the old bad units are still not amazing. The only change that came out of left field was the thunderfire cannons getting barrage, making the best heavy support choice even better. Expect lots of marine armies with 3+ TF cannons.

Unless there is some manner of hidden uberlist that involves some truly bizarre combos, there's no way they are going to better than middle of the road competitive wise, and certainly won't challenge the necron/eldar/demon/tau power block.

Everything got cheaper for one, which alone is huge. Plus the Chapter Tactics essentially grant you free USRs, which can be leveraged around whatever unit type you want to build around.

Plus, a semi answer to MC spam was presented in the grav gun. A 90 point bike squad will put 3.3 wounds on a Riptide in a shooting phase (or 4.4 if prescienced)

I'm not saying it's a top tier book, I'm saying we don't know yet. I honestly think White Scars (with Thunderfires, Storm Talons and various other support pieces) plus a Rune Priest or two is a solid build, but we'll see.

Self allied with 4 thunderfires. Buy a bastion and hide them in a corner with no LoS. Space marines just got thudd guns. Tigurius can prescience one of them. Even with tiggy and 4 artillery you have points for 60 scoring bodies.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Self allied with 4 thunderfires. Buy a bastion and hide them in a corner with no LoS. Space marines just got thudd guns. Tigurius can prescience one of them. Even with tiggy and 4 artillery you have points for 60 scoring bodies.

More if your allied detachment is Black Templars.

And they're 60 scoring bodies that will almost never run off the table and cannot be swept. They may not have the firepower or toys that tau do, but they have to rules and bodies to win on objectives.