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 hyv3mynd wrote:
And they're 60 scoring bodies that will almost never run off the table and cannot be swept. They may not have the firepower or toys that tau do, but they have to rules and bodies to win on objectives.

A full BT Crusader Squad is under 250 points. That means if you wanted to go Horde you could bring 120 T4 bodies for less than 1500 points....

Think about that for a second.

Edited for points costs

Edited again for math fail

You might need to recalculate that
I only count 100 bodies.

Kangodo wrote:
You might need to recalculate that
I only count 100 bodies.

It's 120, I'm an idiot. Sorry

Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Well, I have no idea if horde Marines will prove to be viable, but it will beat Serpents. Labmouse did the math on DPP for Serpents versus Marines, it's not impressive (it's not bad, but it's not doing much to 120 Marines and baby Marines). And 120 Marines is more than enough board presence/krak grenades to eliminate WSs.

Tank Hunter Devestators with Tiggy will do it too. If he wants perfect timing, he will get it.

Drop pod lists got hella cheaper especially with free ones on ASM. I've seen several lists on this very forum with 60+ drop pod bodies. Serpents don't like to be boxed in on turn 2 when every body has krak grenades.

Lascannons centurions seriously spammed. T5 2+ with 2 wounds each are something serpents will have to think twice about. Scatter lasers alone won't kill them and they won't want to drop their shields. Tigurius can make them ignore cover or go fists for tank hunters. Or self ally and do both.

Salamander meltas in drop pods.

Tons of bikes with plasma, melta, and gravs who them assaul with krak grenades.

Those are some starters for anti serpents.

But are those TAC? No list tailoring,. That's why I'm not impressed with this book at all.

And I don't know about you, but I'm not buying dozens of bikers for 40K. If that's what GW thinks, they're nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Well, I have no idea if horde Marines will prove to be viable, but it will beat Serpents. Labmouse did the math on DPP for Serpents versus Marines, it's not impressive (it's not bad, but it's not doing much to 120 Marines and baby Marines). And 120 Marines is more than enough board presence/krak grenades to eliminate WSs.

Tank Hunter Devestators with Tiggy will do it too. If he wants perfect timing, he will get it.

Doesn't get around serpent shield, but okay. Guess which squad gets vaporized first by the Eldar?

anonymou5 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

Jury is still out

I'm with Martel on this one...again. Before the new codex marines were scrapping the bottom of the tier list, in fact, they were third from last in the nova results, ahead of only orks and SoB.

Really, what has changed? The book is still 95% the same. The new units are marginal to poor, the old good units are more expensive/worse, and the old bad units are still not amazing. The only change that came out of left field was the thunderfire cannons getting barrage, making the best heavy support choice even better. Expect lots of marine armies with 3+ TF cannons.

Unless there is some manner of hidden uberlist that involves some truly bizarre combos, there's no way they are going to better than middle of the road competitive wise, and certainly won't challenge the necron/eldar/demon/tau power block.

Everything got cheaper for one, which alone is huge. Plus the Chapter Tactics essentially grant you free USRs, which can be leveraged around whatever unit type you want to build around.

Plus, a semi answer to MC spam was presented in the grav gun. A 90 point bike squad will put 3.3 wounds on a Riptide in a shooting phase (or 4.4 if prescienced)

I'm not saying it's a top tier book, I'm saying we don't know yet. I honestly think White Scars (with Thunderfires, Storm Talons and various other support pieces) plus a Rune Priest or two is a solid build, but we'll see.

What got cheaper? My typical army got MORE expensive!

Tacticals are literally exactly the same amount of points unless you drop the veteran sergeant, which I'm going to have to, due to increases everywhere else.

My null zone/vortex terminator librarian's power were taken away, so now I'm left rolling random crap or more likely having to switch over to Tigurius, so there's another 25 points I'm out.

My attack bikes went up 5 points each...so that's another 25 I'm out.

My TH/SS terminators went up 25 points. Not to mention their transport lost a seat for my librarian.

My Vindicators went up 10 each, so that's 20.

So yeah, I've got to cut something like 95 points out of my typical 1500 point list. My HQ is better, and I have access to some pretty weak chapter tactics. This book was literally nothing but nerfs for my typical marine list, so basically, and as is typical with any new codex, I have to take my army back to the drawing board and start over.

With TH/SS officially dead and completely useless, land raiders not getting any better and already being poor, and tacticals not improving enough to be competitive, I have a lot of changes to make to say the least.

Yeah, I thought it was a bit douche to get right of cheap tactical weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
But are those TAC? No list tailoring,. That's why I'm not impressed with this book at all.

And I don't know about you, but I'm not buying dozens of bikers for 40K. If that's what GW thinks, they're nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Well, I have no idea if horde Marines will prove to be viable, but it will beat Serpents. Labmouse did the math on DPP for Serpents versus Marines, it's not impressive (it's not bad, but it's not doing much to 120 Marines and baby Marines). And 120 Marines is more than enough board presence/krak grenades to eliminate WSs.

Tank Hunter Devestators with Tiggy will do it too. If he wants perfect timing, he will get it.

Doesn't get around serpent shield, but okay. Guess which squad gets vaporized first by the Eldar?

Tbh your responses are predictably pessimistic and cynical. I'm sorry you have such a negative view of the game due to the army you chose to play getting nerfed. I don't expect to have a productive conversation with you since literally every time you respond it smacks of the same pessimism.

FWIW serpent shields won't do jack against tank hunter lascannon centurion with tiggy for perfect timing. The shield does not prevent lost hull points. Once you ignore their cover; it's exceedingly easy for str9 with rerolls to hit and rerolls to pen to cause 3 hull points. Like I said earlier, serpents would be forced to keep shields up and 4 laser shots a turn will never take down a max unit of cents. Not to mention the very good possibility of tiggy tanking wounds with refillable 2+/3++.

And yes tho expensive I would consider 6 imperial fist cents with tiggy a TAC unit.

I'm not to sure about the new SM book as a stand alone list. In that I have my doubts. However 6th edition is all about allies and you can get all the power Hyv3mind speaks about from the Centurions by attaching a Tau buff commander to them and letting the special abilities flow. Tau and SM are battle brothers.

You realize you'd have to ally Tigurius in right? So you are automatically at 2 HQ and 3 troop choice choices to start. Not to mention Tig isn't guaranteed Perfect timing (I think 75% chance to get it if my math is right.).

Then you have a 490 point cent squad (assume you don't also upgrade the cents with missile launchers) and a 165 point special character.

655 points for 6 TL, tanks hunter lascannons is silly. I mean, sure, you are going to kill a single wave serpent per turn, with 655+ points, but that's not really enough for that many points IMO.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I'm not to sure about the new SM book as a stand alone list. In that I have my doubts. However 6th edition is all about allies and you can get all the power Hyv3mind speaks about from the Centurions by attaching a Tau buff commander to them and letting the special abilities flow. Tau and SM are battle brothers.

Wow, you are right. The buffmander from tau does give TL and tank hunter.....why bother with the IF chapter tactic then? Why not go with Iron hands for free FnP and tougher vehicles/characters.

Actually the serpent shields turn pricey lascannons into ROF 1 hull strippers. Good luck winning that race with the Eldar focus firing your weapons that can hurt the wave serpents.

Plus, the amount of points you are paying to do this is incredible.

How is Tigerius getting a 3++ save?

Plus, there are other lists in the game other than Eldar. That's the problem.

I'm pessimistic because math is bitch, and the Eldar and Tau still have it on their side in spades. And I'm also pessimistic because the other list that I MIGHT be able to pull off has a crap codex that does nothing really to change the meta. Maybe the Orks and Tyranids will force some kind of change, because the Tau and Eldar laugh at this book.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I'm not to sure about the new SM book as a stand alone list. In that I have my doubts. However 6th edition is all about allies and you can get all the power Hyv3mind speaks about from the Centurions by attaching a Tau buff commander to them and letting the special abilities flow. Tau and SM are battle brothers.

Well yes but since the thread is about breakin tau dominance, I wanted to not recommend using more tau because...

I normally get upset when one of my threads gets of course but I actually play marines so the new codex talk is ok. I think grav weapons and jaws is a good way to kill riptides.

Just a quick theory.

Would a Black Legion ally with a Sorcerer/Daemon Prince equipped with the Last Memory of Yuranthos be an alright pick against Tau?

Potentially 18" bubble that causes 2D6 hits per unit, AP 5, Ignores Cover and the most important part..... causes Blind.

Most Tau units that are actually threatening have an Initiative of 2 no? Why not Deepstrike in a Sorcerer/Daemon Prince and activate the spell? Could be worth it.

Scouting white scar bikes with grav weapons will kill riptides turn one. take hundreds of 'em.

12" scout, 12" movement + 18" range = 42" range on grav-guns
That would probably do the trick.

It'll also cause serious problems for serpent spam by immobilising them. Ive got 50 bikes, where can I get 50 grav weapons?

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Just a quick theory.

Would a Black Legion ally with a Sorcerer/Daemon Prince equipped with the Last Memory of Yuranthos be an alright pick against Tau?

Potentially 18" bubble that causes 2D6 hits per unit, AP 5, Ignores Cover and the most important part..... causes Blind.

Most Tau units that are actually threatening have an Initiative of 2 no? Why not Deepstrike in a Sorcerer/Daemon Prince and activate the spell? Could be worth it.

This would have been a good answer to tau, cept all suits (re: riptide) have blacksun and therefore ignore both nightfight and blind.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Serpents get wrecked by grav weapons.
3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn, and it only takes two sixes to kill one completely. This makes serpents not worth their points against grav, because the extra points you pay for serpent shield protection and cover saves mean diddly-squat against it.
Serpent spam will really fear grav spam.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn,

They only have 50% chance to do this because grac weapons don't ignore cover. So the Wave Serpent will still take his 4+ cover save against the single grav weapon effect. Unless you take the first turn with your scouting bikes .

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn,

They only have 50% chance to do this because grac weapons don't ignore cover. So the Wave Serpent will still take his 4+ cover save against the single grav weapon effect. Unless you take the first turn with your scouting bikes .

Incorrect.

Vehicles are only allowed to take cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits. Gravs cause neither.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn,

They only have 50% chance to do this because grac weapons don't ignore cover. So the Wave Serpent will still take his 4+ cover save against the single grav weapon effect. Unless you take the first turn with your scouting bikes .

Incorrect.

Vehicles are only allowed to take cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits. Gravs cause neither.

Yeah, I was actually wondering about this. But I wouldn't force this so much least my opponent tells me to remove all my special weapons equipped Bikers .

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn,

They only have 50% chance to do this because grac weapons don't ignore cover. So the Wave Serpent will still take his 4+ cover save against the single grav weapon effect. Unless you take the first turn with your scouting bikes .

Incorrect.

Vehicles are only allowed to take cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits. Gravs cause neither.

Yeah, I was actually wondering about this. But I wouldn't force this so much least my opponent tells me to remove all my special weapons equipped Bikers .

Haha Fair enough although the special weapons biker thing is quite clearly an oversight, and the intent is obvious, whereas the cover saves thing could be intended.

 AtoMaki wrote:


Yeah, I was actually wondering about this. But I wouldn't force this so much least my opponent tells me to remove all my special weapons equipped Bikers .

I feel like I'm missing something... why would your opponent tell you to remove special weapons bikers?

Because RAW, bikers can't take special weapons.

pg 174 Top entry. [i]"up to two bikers may each take one item from the special weapons list"[/

edit: do you mean command squads?

No, bikers have no boltguns or melee weapons to trade out as per the special weapon rules.

Don't panic, it's a typo and it's already a crime in most countries to 'rules-lawyer' this.
The Church has also condemned it as a sin and GW will probably FAQ it soon.