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 Eilif wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
Could it be the GW game developers have been trying to tie the rules to the 'inspiring fluff' directly , which leads to the diffuse and needlessly over complexity in the instructions to play the game?

You hit it on the headI think that "inspiring fluff" is exactly why the rules have become overcomplicated. 40k is a game targeted to teenagers. One thing marketers know is that pre-teens and teenagers have a larger (larger than adults) capacity for minutiae and they are wired for obsession. Ex. How many pokemon can a kid tell you about? 40k exploits this to the max. What adults might see as needless complexity, teens lap up as further emersing themselves in the 40k world.

Lanrak wrote:
.Perhaps because the game play of 40k became rather shallow after the transition to 3rd ed.

As for shallow post-2nd edition. That depends on your point of view. 3rd edition was more streamlined than 2nd, but that's largely because as the size of games grew, it became clear that for larger games (though not even close to the # of figs in a 1800 point game today) 2nd edition is a clunky mess. It's basically a ruleset that functions well with a few squads (an outgrowth of Rogue Trader) that boggs down at the level most folks play at. On a nostalgia kick I played a game of 2nd edition last year. It was like playing Necromunda with too many figures.

40k is not aimed at teenagers it's aimed at adults. The ruleset reflects this.

xruslanx wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
Could it be the GW game developers have been trying to tie the rules to the 'inspiring fluff' directly , which leads to the diffuse and needlessly over complexity in the instructions to play the game?

You hit it on the headI think that "inspiring fluff" is exactly why the rules have become overcomplicated. 40k is a game targeted to teenagers. One thing marketers know is that pre-teens and teenagers have a larger (larger than adults) capacity for minutiae and they are wired for obsession. Ex. How many pokemon can a kid tell you about? 40k exploits this to the max. What adults might see as needless complexity, teens lap up as further emersing themselves in the 40k world.

Lanrak wrote:
.Perhaps because the game play of 40k became rather shallow after the transition to 3rd ed.

As for shallow post-2nd edition. That depends on your point of view. 3rd edition was more streamlined than 2nd, but that's largely because as the size of games grew, it became clear that for larger games (though not even close to the # of figs in a 1800 point game today) 2nd edition is a clunky mess. It's basically a ruleset that functions well with a few squads (an outgrowth of Rogue Trader) that boggs down at the level most folks play at. On a nostalgia kick I played a game of 2nd edition last year. It was like playing Necromunda with too many figures.

40k is not aimed at teenagers it's aimed at adults. The ruleset reflects this.

No it's aimed at kids.

xruslanx wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
Could it be the GW game developers have been trying to tie the rules to the 'inspiring fluff' directly , which leads to the diffuse and needlessly over complexity in the instructions to play the game?

You hit it on the headI think that "inspiring fluff" is exactly why the rules have become overcomplicated. 40k is a game targeted to teenagers. One thing marketers know is that pre-teens and teenagers have a larger (larger than adults) capacity for minutiae and they are wired for obsession. Ex. How many pokemon can a kid tell you about? 40k exploits this to the max. What adults might see as needless complexity, teens lap up as further emersing themselves in the 40k world.

Lanrak wrote:
.Perhaps because the game play of 40k became rather shallow after the transition to 3rd ed.

As for shallow post-2nd edition. That depends on your point of view. 3rd edition was more streamlined than 2nd, but that's largely because as the size of games grew, it became clear that for larger games (though not even close to the # of figs in a 1800 point game today) 2nd edition is a clunky mess. It's basically a ruleset that functions well with a few squads (an outgrowth of Rogue Trader) that boggs down at the level most folks play at. On a nostalgia kick I played a game of 2nd edition last year. It was like playing Necromunda with too many figures.

40k is not aimed at teenagers it's aimed at adults. The ruleset reflects this.

You're funny. That was a cracker of a joke you've just told there!

Seriously? Have you even looked at the other rulesets out there? Many of them are free on their respective companies websites. 40k has this schizophrenic... attitude about it where it is incredibly simplistic but simultaneously manages to be needlessly complex with all the special rules piled on top coupled with hippy-dippy rules writing.

To market this to adults, who will immediately point out the lack of logic and professionalism in some of their rules publications, whereas kids generally won't give a rat's ass.

it's weird how my friends and i are all adults and managed to read the rulebook without 'immediately pointing out the lack of proffessionalism and logic' in it.

If you would prefer a tighter ruleset with fewer special rules then that's great, but don't just lable anyone who thinks that special rules make the game more enjoyable a child.

Personally i think it would be pretty boring to know that my army's rules could all be cut from the same cloth as all others, but k'm prepared to accept that others may disagree without labling them as something derogatory.

xruslanx wrote:
it's weird how my friends and i are all adults and managed to read the rulebook without 'immediately pointing out the lack of proffessionalism and logic' in it.

If you would prefer a tighter ruleset with fewer special rules then that's great, but don't just lable anyone who thinks that special rules make the game more enjoyable a child.

Personally i think it would be pretty boring to know that my army's rules could all be cut from the same cloth as all others, but k'm prepared to accept that others may disagree without labling them as something derogatory.

Cool, doesn't change the fact GW games are targeted at kids. Or the fact GW rules are crap, just pretending it isn't doesn't, isn't helping GW.

Lookat the amount of pages in the GW rule section. Look at the number of pages of Warmahordes pages. Which one is more competitive? Is this typical of a more complicated game? GWs games happen to be more complex rules wise and more straight foward tactically. That is typically a bad sign! If you want a B&P game, give it a simple ruleset! GW puts in the worst of both worlds into their games.

Noir wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
it's weird how my friends and i are all adults and managed to read the rulebook without 'immediately pointing out the lack of proffessionalism and logic' in it.

If you would prefer a tighter ruleset with fewer special rules then that's great, but don't just lable anyone who thinks that special rules make the game more enjoyable a child.

Personally i think it would be pretty boring to know that my army's rules could all be cut from the same cloth as all others, but k'm prepared to accept that others may disagree without labling them as something derogatory.

Cool, doesn't change the fact GW games are targeted at kids. Or the fact GW rules are crap, just pretending it isn't doesn't, isn't helping GW.

i don't know about where you live but around here the kids certainly can't afford to get into gw. You think a twelve year old can drop £30 a week on this gak? Maybe if he never bought video games, sweets, booze, phone credit, clothes, shoes etc...but that's still one rich kid.

I think it's clear from gw's prices that it's aimed at adults with a bit of disposable income. For every rich spoilt kid, there are twenty adults who can spend a fair bit on plastic crack every week, unless you live in abu dhabi.

Do you have any reasoning or evidence behind your claim btw?

xruslanx wrote:

Noir wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
it's weird how my friends and i are all adults and managed to read the rulebook without 'immediately pointing out the lack of proffessionalism and logic' in it.

If you would prefer a tighter ruleset with fewer special rules then that's great, but don't just lable anyone who thinks that special rules make the game more enjoyable a child.

Personally i think it would be pretty boring to know that my army's rules could all be cut from the same cloth as all others, but k'm prepared to accept that others may disagree without labling them as something derogatory.

Cool, doesn't change the fact GW games are targeted at kids. Or the fact GW rules are crap, just pretending it isn't doesn't, isn't helping GW.

i don't know about where you live but around here the kids certainly can't afford to get into gw. You think a twelve year old can drop £30 a week on this gak? Maybe if he never bought video games, sweets, booze, phone credit, clothes, shoes etc...but that's still one rich kid.

I think it's clear from gw's prices that it's aimed at adults with a bit of disposable income. For every rich spoilt kid, there are twenty adults who can spend a fair bit on plastic crack every week, unless you live in abu dhabi.

Do you have any reasoning or evidence behind your claim btw?

Are you just intentionally being obtuse? There are scores and scores of evidence out there that GW's strategy is to market to children with a good access to the bank of mum and dad. I'm not going to bother repeating it as I believe you're simply trolling and it's not worth my time to write out something that can be found with a simple search due to topics of this nature coming up about once a week on this forum.

It would preferable for people to stick to arguments about rules rather than arguments with each other.

xruslanx wrote:

Noir wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
it's weird how my friends and i are all adults and managed to read the rulebook without 'immediately pointing out the lack of proffessionalism and logic' in it.

If you would prefer a tighter ruleset with fewer special rules then that's great, but don't just lable anyone who thinks that special rules make the game more enjoyable a child.

Personally i think it would be pretty boring to know that my army's rules could all be cut from the same cloth as all others, but k'm prepared to accept that others may disagree without labling them as something derogatory.

Cool, doesn't change the fact GW games are targeted at kids. Or the fact GW rules are crap, just pretending it isn't doesn't, isn't helping GW.

i don't know about where you live but around here the kids certainly can't afford to get into gw. You think a twelve year old can drop £30 a week on this gak? Maybe if he never bought video games, sweets, booze, phone credit, clothes, shoes etc...but that's still one rich kid.

I think it's clear from gw's prices that it's aimed at adults with a bit of disposable income. For every rich spoilt kid, there are twenty adults who can spend a fair bit on plastic crack every week, unless you live in abu dhabi.

Do you have any reasoning or evidence behind your claim btw?

The internet, GW marketing, people with half a brain, people not blinded by the amount of money they spent on GW stuff, take your pick there all good. But, you know what they say a little make belive is a good thing, so good for you . Still the only hope for GW is people waking up and stop bying the crap there feeding them, before GW get sold off piecemeal to other companies.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Are you just intentionally being obtuse? There are scores and scores of evidence out there that GW's strategy is to market to children with a good access to the bank of mum and dad. I'm not going to bother repeating it as I believe you're simply trolling and it's not worth my time to write out something that can be found with a simple search due to topics of this nature coming up about once a week on this forum.

Whether people like it or not, and whether it's insulting or not, it is indeed true that GW's core markets are teens. ON another thread I did a breakdown of what the kids at my son's school spend on GW, and extrapolated for the teenage boy population it showed them making up around 80 or 90% of UK revenue. Now that's on a sample of 120 kids and the figure might be out by 20 or 30 per cent, but it's obvious that teenage boys make up a huge part of the market, as they do with video games.

I don't necessarily agree with the view that the rules are crap so they must be aimed at teenagers. But the GW financial model is mainly based around teenage boys who have a lot of spending power. If you think kids can't afford their stuff, you haven't been hassled by 13 years olds to buy an XBox One or whatever.

.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Whether people like it or not, and whether it's insulting or not, it is indeed true that GW's core markets are teens. ON another thread I did a breakdown of what the kids at my son's school spend on GW, and extrapolated for the teenage boy population it showed them making up around 80 or 90% of UK revenue. Now that's on a sample of 120 kids and the figure might be out by 20 or 30 per cent, but it's obvious that teenage boys make up a huge part of the market, as they do with video games.
.

This is your standard for evidence? A sample size of one?

Jesus Christ guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Noir wrote:

The internet

What? How does "the internet" prove anything?

Noir wrote:

GW marketing

I can totally see how "check out our awesome new releases" on facebook markets exclusively to kids. But then that lumps them in with every single other company in the world. Unless GW do actual marketing that I'm not aware of?

Noir wrote:

people with half a brain, people not blinded by the amount of money they spent on GW stuff

Ah my apologies. I didn't realise you were on the largest 40k fansite in the world, then call all 40k fans idiots. Or is there some really intelligent hidden meaning behind these words that I missed?

xruslanx wrote:
[
This is your standard for evidence? A sample size of one?

Not sure if your problem is math or comprehension, but read again and you'll see the sample size is 120.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Not sure if your problem is math or comprehension, but read again and you'll see the sample size is 120.

From one school, yes. I could find another school where no one plays 40k.

But if you are honestly going to use that as firm empirical evidence that teenagers make up 70-80% of GW's sales then there you are so far detatched from reality that there is no point argueing with you.

And *please* stop imbuing your replies with insults. Questioning someone's reading comprehension is irrelevant (since we all interpret language differently), and differentiating between numbers has feth all to do with maths. Remember that you are talking to an intelligent human being, not simply adding to your post count.

I'm really surprised some genuinely seem to think the rules are rubbish/crap/<insert expletive>.

If they truly were, you would be unable to play any games at all. Strangely enough I manage enough games without needing the rulebook for more than reading the mission details/warlord traits (which for some reason I still haven't memorised).

The rules are mediocre, have an outdated game model and are convoluted maybe. And suffer from lack of editing/proofreading/testing. Also GW insists on duplicating/separating rules from similar types of units too much.

On the other hand I find it hard to believe these other games have such perfect rules, unless it's a simple game like Chess (the rules of which fit on a scrap of paper).

xruslanx wrote:
it's weird how my friends and i are all adults and managed to read the rulebook without 'immediately pointing out the lack of proffessionalism and logic' in it.

If you would prefer a tighter ruleset with fewer special rules then that's great, but don't just lable anyone who thinks that special rules make the game more enjoyable a child.

Personally i think it would be pretty boring to know that my army's rules could all be cut from the same cloth as all others, but k'm prepared to accept that others may disagree without labling them as something derogatory.

Just wanted to clarify that it was not my intention to label anyone a child. I'm simply pointing out what the community has known for a long time, that is, 40k is targeted at teens.

As for the "kids don't have enough $" argument, it's simply not true. GW targets middle, upper-middle and upper class kids who have access to surprisingly high levels of disposable income. Anyone who's worked at a guitar, video game, toy, etc store anywhere even moderately affluent will have similar experience with the incredible spending power that children can wield through their parents.

No one is disputing that 40k is not merely enjoyed by children, I enjoyed it well into my 20's and still play the odd game. That doesn't change the fact that it's a product that is targeted to teens and designed around their developmental state in much the same way as magic, clix games, video games etc. All of which are targeted at teens, but have a sizable adult following too, especially as "kid things" have become steadily more socially acceptable for adults over the last decade.

 Shandara wrote:
If they truly were, you would be unable to play any games at all.

Not at all true. You can play games with garbage rules, especially if you're willing to 4+ it every time you find a problem with those rules. But "able to play a game successfully" is an absurdly low standard for rule quality. Judged by any reasonable standard GW's rules are garbage.

Strangely enough I manage enough games without needing the rulebook for more than reading the mission details/warlord traits (which for some reason I still haven't memorised).

I'm guessing you've been playing long enough to have encountered most of the common rule problems and figured out a house rule to fix them. Try doing that as a new player who doesn't have all the fixes memorized and see how successful you are.

On the other hand I find it hard to believe these other games have such perfect rules, unless it's a simple game like Chess (the rules of which fit on a scrap of paper).

Again, MTG: simple enough "basic" rules to have a thriving "casual" community, but also a "full" rulebook that answers any possible rule question with "go read the rules".

 Eilif wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
it's weird how my friends and i are all adults and managed to read the rulebook without 'immediately pointing out the lack of proffessionalism and logic' in it.

If you would prefer a tighter ruleset with fewer special rules then that's great, but don't just lable anyone who thinks that special rules make the game more enjoyable a child.

Personally i think it would be pretty boring to know that my army's rules could all be cut from the same cloth as all others, but k'm prepared to accept that others may disagree without labling them as something derogatory.

Just wanted to clarify that it was not my intention to label anyone a child. I'm simply pointing out what the community has known for a long time, that is, 40k is targeted at teens.

As for the "kids don't have enough $" argument, it's simply not true. GW targets middle, upper-middle and upper class kids who have access to surprisingly high levels of disposable income. Anyone who's worked at a guitar, video game, toy, etc store anywhere even moderately affluent will have similar experience with the incredible spending power that children can wield through their parents.

No one is disputing that 40k is not merely enjoyed by children, I enjoyed it well into my 20's and still play the odd game. That doesn't change the fact that it's a product that is targeted to teens and designed around their developmental state in much the same way as magic, clix games, video games etc. All of which are targeted at teens, but have a sizable adult following too, especially as "kid things" have become steadily more socially acceptable for adults over the last decade.

Most middle class parents can buy their kid a £150 guitar for their 13th birthday, sure, or a £60 box of warhammer at christmas. But on a week by week basis? No way. You'd have to be *very* wealthy to casually spend that on your kids every single week. I have nephews who have property worth in excess of £1m and they don't spend that on their kids every week. Maybe £20 for a DVD or some make-up every couple of weeks but no where near the level you're presuming.

By contrast our single childless 20-something with a full time low-paid job has £100 a week in disposable income. Sure not all of it is going on 40k, but if he sees some awesome new tank that's coming out at a hefty price-tag, he doesn't think "ah damn, going to have to wait for my birthday for that", he thinks "woah i can afford that on pay-day if I live off noodles for a week".

Just look at the new releases. If they released a new plastic Imperial guard range tomorrow, I'd drop £200 on it easily. 4 infantry squads, 6 special weapon sets and a command squad to get me started. Plus the codex obviously. It'd be sweet.

But again, little Timmy has no chance. Really very few parents would blow all that on their kids on a whim, but there's tens of thousands of people who could do so if they wanted to. As long as they're single, obviously

xruslanx wrote:

Noir wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
it's weird how my friends and i are all adults and managed to read the rulebook without 'immediately pointing out the lack of proffessionalism and logic' in it.

If you would prefer a tighter ruleset with fewer special rules then that's great, but don't just lable anyone who thinks that special rules make the game more enjoyable a child.

Personally i think it would be pretty boring to know that my army's rules could all be cut from the same cloth as all others, but k'm prepared to accept that others may disagree without labling them as something derogatory.

Cool, doesn't change the fact GW games are targeted at kids. Or the fact GW rules are crap, just pretending it isn't doesn't, isn't helping GW.

i don't know about where you live but around here the kids certainly can't afford to get into gw. You think a twelve year old can drop £30 a week on this gak? Maybe if he never bought video games, sweets, booze, phone credit, clothes, shoes etc...but that's still one rich kid.

I think it's clear from gw's prices that it's aimed at adults with a bit of disposable income. For every rich spoilt kid, there are twenty adults who can spend a fair bit on plastic crack every week, unless you live in abu dhabi.

Do you have any reasoning or evidence behind your claim btw?

Ummm...GW themselves.

Demographic Criteria: At least 500,000 total population within 10 miles with 33,000+ 14- to 24-year-old males. Median household income is at least $50,000.

That is their current site survey requirement for determining where they might locate GW stores.

https://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=7&aId=3500005&start=8&multiPageMode=true

Since it starts at 14, I would say that that is a good indicator of who they are targeting. I would have to go back and look, but I am pretty sure in one of the 2004 or 2005 FY reports, they stated that their target for new players was 12-18. College age is a harder sell as plastic toys a little fun compared to beer and girls while after 24, they assume you are either locked in or have left them behind in favor of more mature rules.

And your data to support that a majority of GW products are sold in GW stores? We have no solid data to go on but since a huge range of GW products are *only* available online (and even more only available online intermidantly) we can guess that a good chunk of GW's sales are done over the internet. And guess what demographic doesn't have access to a debit/credit card?

And your other data to support the idea that GW's established larger stores have sales data that screws towards youngsters spending the most amount of money? Tesco are currently aggressively expanding supermarkets in areas with heavy footfall. Does that mean they make most of their money from people on foot as opposed to people in the mega-marts?

You're making a lot of assumptions in your argument for no apparent reason other than a desire to paint GW as being for kiddies.

Good reasons for playing 40k, (in my view) give the originally stated conditions.

1) You like the fluff/background. It is a well developed universe and can be quite engrossing.
Counterpoint: You don't need to play the game to enjoy the background, if anything, what few stories there are in the rulebooks end up detracting from the background (EG, Grey Knights codex). There's plenty of people out there who are involved enough with the 40k or fantasy universes just by reading the books off amazon and never stepping into a GW store.

2) You really love the models, looks, style, painting, whatever. They're awesome. You take the 'best quality' miniatures in the world claim at face value.
Counterpoint: Finecast is a massive counterpoint - a mates kroxigors are currently wilting like a dead plant. Games Workshop's design is slowly going haywire, taking for example the high elf flying bolt thrower, Space Marine Centurions and the Lord of Skulls. More and more companies are making better models for painting all the time. Take a look at Infinity for awesome sci fi models, keep an eye out for the Mantic enforcers that are released with deadzone in a few months, they may turn out great. Mantics Corporation soldiers are great for sci fi troops. Admittedly, fantasy wise there's a bit of a struggle finding a wide range of suitable models at the moment...


I could add to the actual rules discussion but put me down in the 'rules are really awful and terrible' camp. I could go more into that and might do in another post but, quite frankly, I need sleep.

xruslanx wrote:
And your data to support that a majority of GW products are sold in GW stores? We have no solid data to go on but since a huge range of GW products are *only* available online (and even more only available online intermidantly) we can guess that a good chunk of GW's sales are done over the internet. And guess what demographic doesn't have access to a debit/credit card?

And your other data to support the idea that GW's established larger stores have sales data that screws towards youngsters spending the most amount of money? Tesco are currently aggressively expanding supermarkets in areas with heavy footfall. Does that mean they make most of their money from people on foot as opposed to people in the mega-marts?

You're making a lot of assumptions in your argument for no apparent reason other than a desire to paint GW as being for kiddies.

Please, don't let the overwhelming evidence get in the way of your argument.

Have you seen the commercial I posted? Does it look like it's targeted to adults? I'll post it again because maybe you just chose to ignore it:





Oh, another one.




Too bad GW doesn't make any commercials (or any advertising for that matter) but I would bet their target demographic didn't change much.

...

An advert for a single games workshop store in the USA, and an advert for a board game using 40k figureines, both made twenty years ago? This is your irrefutable evidence of GW's corporate strategy?

Dude, just give it up.

I don't really get the "40k is for kids" thing either. At my FLGS, most people are in their 20's or early 30's. We have more people who are older than 40 than younger than 20, and this has been true for years now. We even had a two year gap in there where more or less the only one who was a teenager was the son of one of the other regular players.

And it's not that surprising. Parents look at children and think "Am I going to shell out a bunch of cash for something they might instantly loose interest in?" People over 20 look at the game and think "Hey, this is way cheaper and interesting than smoking or going to the bar. Good value!" Or, at least, it's no worse value than video gaming.

Young people take money from leery parents who see a fad. Older people see a good value way to do something creative with their money.

And I still defend that games like 40k are relatively simple. Yes, there are a lot of special rules, but there are UNIVERSAL special rules. And the game has complex bits that interact with each other (which makes the game better, not worse), but they generally work the same way every time.

Compare 40k to malifaux. Every model in that game is basically a special character with special rules. You have to spend half an hour before the game just trying to figure out what your opponent's minis are and what they can do, and that's for tiny malifaux games with only a couple of models. Meanwhile, my opponent can say "those guys are special because they have FNP" and I just know what that means. And everyone has bolters and power armor, which I know what those are, rather than "this one has a sword of special +9" and "this one has a special ability that allows him to blah, blah, blah..."

Also, as mentioned, compare 40k to old battletech, or some of the WWII simulator games or, classically, advanced squad leader. In 40k, I roll up a meltagun to the tank. I have BS4. I hit the tank on a die roll of 3+. Everyone knows this. I just roll a single die, and there you have it. In other games, you've got to spend twenty years looking up tables to see how far the unit moved, and over what kind of terrain, in what weather conditions, and how far from their commander they are, and what they had for breakfast that morning, and what their policy is towards allowing women to participate in military service, and what their favorite color is. And then, after all that calculating, then, perhaps, you'll get to roll a die, and see if you hit.

Oh, I'm sorry, it's actually not that easy, because you also have to consider your target, and how far it is away, and how fast it moved in the last turn over what kind of terrain, in what weather conditions from what direction, from how far they are from their ammunition stores, but not from obscuring terrain of type three or better, and... and... and...

... and I just want to play my game.

xruslanx wrote:
...

An advert for a single games workshop store in the USA, and an advert for a board game using 40k figureines, both made twenty years ago? This is your irrefutable evidence of GW's corporate strategy?

Dude, just give it up.

Not irrefutable evidence, but tons of little evidence pointing in the same direction could lead you to a pretty good conclusion, you know?

This is like saying MLP is targeted to young men because more young men are buying their merchandise. Still doesn't change the fact that it's targeted to little girls first.

You've stated that GW games are targeted at adults, and yet you haven't' provided irrefutable evidence yourself. At least we provided evidence. Perhaps you should try that sometime instead of just claiming something without evidence to back you up.

Please provide evidence to prove your claim, otherwise you're just spewing an opinion based on your perception, not a fact.

what I dislike is both are much too random for my tastes.
I like randomness here and there, but when its everywhere... I know better games, for cheaper (even if they were totally free to me... I still would opt for something else, I just don't like the rulesets very much, random isn't fun when that's all it is)

Well I haven't played WHFB, so I can't comment there. But 3rd edition was the best ruleset for 40K and it's steadily gotten worse, until this new nightmare.

Yes, GW games are worth playing "on [their] own merits." Are there rules challenges? Yes. Is it a trial and error procedure to build an army? Maybe. But what are you looking for, a game to play with others or an existential experience in absolute perfection?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Yes, GW games are worth playing "on [their] own merits." Are there rules challenges? Yes. Is it a trial and error procedure to build an army? Maybe. But what are you looking for, a game to play with others or an existential experience in absolute perfection?

Ignoring the fact it is easier to get a game in for 40k than (most) anything else, which is the entire point of the thread, you argument loses all merit.
If it were just as easy to get a game of something else as 40k then why would you pick 40k over any other game (ignoring fluff and models as well)?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Yes, GW games are worth playing "on [their] own merits." Are there rules challenges? Yes. Is it a trial and error procedure to build an army? Maybe. But what are you looking for, a game to play with others or an existential experience in absolute perfection?

GW's games are barely playable at times