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@labmouse42

While your maths is useful to you, and anyone who follows your posts, it is meaningless to most people in an open discussion.

I guessed the meaning of DPP and am assuming that the unit for "dakka" was wounds caused, but then the numbers appear to make no sense (probably due to your *1000). It is impossible to figre out from the post alone.

You might be better to refer to "wounds per point" and not bother with the *1000, which makes the numbers simpler to read but the maths impossible to follow.

Or your unit could be mWPP (milli wounds per point)

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Thanks for crunching the numbers labmouse42.

I'm gonna run them as the anti-tank setup you described with the IF CT today.

I'll let everybody know how they do.

My friend tried them yesterday in his IF force. They were responsible for nearly a thousand points of death by T4.

He's using them as staples from now on.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
@labmouse42

While your maths is useful to you, and anyone who follows your posts, it is meaningless to most people in an open discussion.

I guessed the meaning of DPP and am assuming that the unit for "dakka" was wounds caused, but then the numbers appear to make no sense (probably due to your *1000). It is impossible to figre out from the post alone.

You might be better to refer to "wounds per point" and not bother with the *1000, which makes the numbers simpler to read but the maths impossible to follow.

Thanks for the input! Did you get a chance to read about the concept of damage per point? I am sure that will help to explain what those values mean. Its talking about how many they can kill on a per-point basis in regards to other units.
I'll make sure to link the article when I make those posts.

The reason we normalize the numbers is because most people have a harder time reading this..
GEQ : 0.01226
MEQ : 0.01226
TEQ : 0.00510

Over this.
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10

Did you catch my edit about milli wounds per point? Giving that as your unit of measurment might enable people to figure the maths without extra reading.

Good work anyway, I just think a lot of people will be too lazy to read up (like me).

I just did. That's good food for thought. I'm a bit worried about backchanging what I've done thus far, as I've already written multiple articles on it, and have been making segments on a podcast about it.

However, I will mention that DPP is just a conversion from mWPP.

 squall018 wrote:

 Trozen wrote:
labmouse42's numbers are dakka per point.

I'll be using the hurricane bolters and grav cannon/amp today. The numbers confirm what I though. Send them midfield and they will dictate the battlefield.

Let us know how it goes. I've been trying to decide between grav cannon or TW LC before I build mine.

Played vs Salamanders with a Khan dual grav gun bike squad allied in with my Iron Hands. He had 3 grav cents on foot and my 3 grav cents were in a godhammer. His took out an Ironclad turn 2. I then deployed mine out and caused 11 ap2 wounds on his, killing the 2 in LOS. His one guy left then turned on mine killing 2 and he finished my 3rd off with stormtalons. His lone cent then immobilized my godhammer the next turn. I repaired the damage with a MOTF then whiffed my lascannon shots into his cent. He didn't cause damage with his next turn and then I finished his off with the 2 lascannons. Game was kill points and we tied at turn 5. I was in a losing position though.

Total Kills: His got Ironclad, 2 grav cents, Immbilized LR. Mine: 2 grav cents

edit.

My thought this morning. Is it worth spending 10 points on a missile to allow the grav guns to kill models in a squad greater then 24" away?

Used the LC/ML centurions with IF CT yesterday against Necrons:

-I had them joined by an allied DA libby with PFG and Prescience.
-I had another regular devastator squad with 2xLCs and 2x MLs combat squadded with the LC guys near the libby (and behind an ADL/quadgun)

Overall thoughts:
-They're a big bullet-magnet and as such they absolutely needed the 4++ (whether cover or invulnerable, that's up to you to come up with it)
-They easily killed a couple of transport barges and stripped a bunch of hull-points from the new FW necron uber-shooty AV14 vehicle (forget what it's called) and eventually killed it (not as quick as I thought, poor rolls on my tank-hunter rerolls)
-A Skyshield pad would be a great addition to an IF army, stick both squads mentioned above on it and shoot away without relying on DA allies for the 4++.
-Game-changer? No. Good Devastator replacement? Yes: more durable, more guns (in a single-squad), still flexible with split-fire, and you get night-vision and TLLCs

Hope this helps.

Can't remember off hand if SM libby gets access to Telekinesis (or a battle brother of SM).

What about Gate of Infinity combo-ed with Dev. CT. I wished they had deep strike before I read the rules and while this wouldn't give allow them to be ANYWHERE on the board, it will allow them to be most places.

This is primarily for those wanting to run Grav Cannon CT.

eltrain728 wrote:
Can't remember off hand if SM libby gets access to Telekinesis (or a battle brother of SM).

What about Gate of Infinity combo-ed with Dev. CT. I wished they had deep strike before I read the rules and while this wouldn't give allow them to be ANYWHERE on the board, it will allow them to be most places.

This is primarily for those wanting to run Grav Cannon CT.

Standard Libby's have Telekinesis.

I actually considered the same thing -- however to make it more reliable, I'd take Tigurious as an ally (or primary if you are UM). Then he can A. Take prescience and then use the others to try and get Gate of Infinity. Either way, the re-rolls to hit AND wound with grav cannons would be nice.

Still unreliable (aside from the re-rolls), but it would be a fun way to get some added range.

I would invest in at least one missile to increase the range, as well as give them at least one shooting weapon as they advance.

Also good against most of their targets.

I'm kinda liking the idea of a centurion squad with all missles and hurricane bolters, just rly like how that sounds in my mind but probably not as effective as they could be...might do that!

I'm gonna build mine with the LC and missle launchers. I have a game against necrons this weekend. Guess we'll see how it goes. I think the extra range will really help, and that way I can keep them in cover and still hit most things.

I'm debating on getting some and running them as grav/ml versions instead of my usual two ML dev squads.

My army usually tend to have at least 1 squad of assault termies and an vindicator or predator so I'd hope the cents might not be a turn 1 fire magnet!

EDIT: might also help me not to suck against obliterators quite so much!

 labmouse42 wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
@labmouse42

While your maths is useful to you, and anyone who follows your posts, it is meaningless to most people in an open discussion.

I guessed the meaning of DPP and am assuming that the unit for "dakka" was wounds caused, but then the numbers appear to make no sense (probably due to your *1000). It is impossible to figre out from the post alone.

You might be better to refer to "wounds per point" and not bother with the *1000, which makes the numbers simpler to read but the maths impossible to follow.

Thanks for the input! Did you get a chance to read about the concept of damage per point? I am sure that will help to explain what those values mean. Its talking about how many they can kill on a per-point basis in regards to other units.
I'll make sure to link the article when I make those posts.

The reason we normalize the numbers is because most people have a harder time reading this..
GEQ : 0.01226
MEQ : 0.01226
TEQ : 0.00510

Over this.
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10

Why would you not just take the inverse and call it as "points per kill" or something of that nature? No need for a messy and arbitrary scaling factor. Lower is better. (We like paying fewer points to remove enemy models).

GEQ : 0.01226 ^-1 = 81.56
MEQ : 0.01226 ^ -1 = 81.56
TEQ : 0.00510 ^ -1 = 196.1

Corollax wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
@labmouse42

While your maths is useful to you, and anyone who follows your posts, it is meaningless to most people in an open discussion.

I guessed the meaning of DPP and am assuming that the unit for "dakka" was wounds caused, but then the numbers appear to make no sense (probably due to your *1000). It is impossible to figre out from the post alone.

You might be better to refer to "wounds per point" and not bother with the *1000, which makes the numbers simpler to read but the maths impossible to follow.

Thanks for the input! Did you get a chance to read about the concept of damage per point? I am sure that will help to explain what those values mean. Its talking about how many they can kill on a per-point basis in regards to other units.
I'll make sure to link the article when I make those posts.

The reason we normalize the numbers is because most people have a harder time reading this..
GEQ : 0.01226
MEQ : 0.01226
TEQ : 0.00510

Over this.
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10

Why would you not just take the inverse and call it as "points per kill" or something of that nature? No need for a messy and arbitrary scaling factor. Lower is better. (We like paying fewer points to remove enemy models).

GEQ : 0.01226 ^-1 = 81.56
MEQ : 0.01226 ^ -1 = 81.56
TEQ : 0.00510 ^ -1 = 196.1

TBH, having it the second way around makes more sense to me - I find mathhammer can be a bit confusing.

Particularly as the second way is easier to conceptualize. "How many points do I need to spend to kill one of his models this shooting phase?"

The grav guns are devastating, but will suffer when Orks and Tyranids come out, I'm sure.

Martel732 wrote:
The grav guns are devastating, but will suffer when Orks and Tyranids come out, I'm sure.

Less so vs Nids. MC are going to suffer greatly.

I get what you mean though.

MCs that Nidz actually use are 3+ armor, so grav actually is a threat to them.
Against the rest yeah its going to suck lol.

Only MANz actually have an armor save worth shaking a stick at, Bikernobz will be wounded on 4s unfortunately but thats just average dice anyway and they dont ignore cover they just ignore armor.

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The grav guns are devastating, but will suffer when Orks and Tyranids come out, I'm sure.

Less so vs Nids. MC are going to suffer greatly.

I get what you mean though.

Tyranids will have to be more cagey with their MCs. But Flyrants will feast on them, since grav isn't skyfire.

No, but theyre still shooting 15-30 shoots depending on how many cents you got, all of which are rerolling misses. Theyre still going to land a few of them. And not like its that hard to make a FMC crash and burn anyway lol laserpointers ftw

yeah, but even 2 squads of Cents ends up being about 33% or so of an 1850 list. Once you add in the troops/HQ, you'll probably not have too many points left over. I think a squad of Cents is a good investment, multiple, I dunno about that.

I manage to fit two 3 man squads with two troops and three squads of sternguard in my list with pedro

Trying to free up about 50 points for a thunderfire cannon but it is difficult if I want to keep the aegis.

I have 3 I assembled with Lascannon/Missile Launchers, due to my Imperial Fists giving them tank hunters. I can't wait to see the damage they putout!

I find it strange that Oblits can be accepted as great almost universally but Cents could be discussed as crap. Pretty comparable points-wise when you add in the Nurgle buff. If you don't then the Cents are going to be much more durable. Both units fulfill a very similar role while the Oblits can walk up or DS, the Cents are going to put out a LOT more pain in that mid range environment.

Reminds me of the Wraithknight when the Eldar dex first dropped. Everyone thought they were crap at first too.

invertigo22 wrote:
I find it strange that Oblits can be accepted as great almost universally but Cents could be discussed as crap. Pretty comparable points-wise when you add in the Nurgle buff. If you don't then the Cents are going to be much more durable. Both units fulfill a very similar role while the Oblits can walk up or DS, the Cents are going to put out a LOT more pain in that mid range environment.

Reminds me of the Wraithknight when the Eldar dex first dropped. Everyone thought they were crap at first too.

Well, there's several differences, including the lack of an invuln.

I'm curious if any Centurion-themed armies will pop up and be good. They were definitely FOC conscious when they wrote this codex, ensuring you can double up on units that compliment eachother (Centurions, Storm Flyers, Assault Marines and Vanguard, etc).

A basic loadout of 3 Centurions will still be pretty mean as far as dakka goes. 27 tl shots of the bolter variety will go a long way with all basic infantry. I say you could take 3 units of 3, each with different weapons loadouts. Might be silly, but you know someone out there will do it.

Lack of an invul can be pretty easily compensated against most targets with a cover save.

There are very few attacks that will break their natural armor that are also cover ignoring. (Only one I can think of is the riptide with attached commander, and I guess legion of the damned?)

In general they are going to be 4 points to 14 points more than a oblit. They dont get deepstrike and versatility of weapons or a powerfist. However they get ATSKNF as well as fixed weapons they can use every round, as well as their lascannon being twinlinked and the grav amps being re-roll wound.

There are some significant differences. However they may have similar things but they are in COMPLETELY different books. In Chaos there really is not much else that can compare to the role oblits play. While in Space Marines there are a few different ways to get what dev centurions can do.

Honestly if it were not for heldrakes they would probably not be worth it. Also imperial fist (and a lesser extent Khan for the grav units) are the only situations where they will really hold their own IMO. Which is fine because I am imperial fist almost all the way.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Well, there's several differences, including the lack of an invuln.

Its been my experience that you generally can find a hill or ruins to hide behind. Your generally going to be bringing at least one TFC in a list. Why? Because they are awesome in the current meta.
So your cents will be getting a 3+ cover save. That's better than a 5+ invuln. Sure, there are a lot of weapons that ignore cover.
How many of them are AP2? Most of the 'ignore cover' weapons I have faced are AP4 or worse. Sure, there is the occasional farsight bomb, but for the most part you can get rid of those dangerous ignore cover weapons by having some practical target priority (ie, shoot the pathfinders with your TFCs, shoot your cents at the skyrays)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 evildrspock wrote:
I'm curious if any Centurion-themed armies will pop up and be good.

I doubt it. I think that they hit a point of diminishing returns pretty quickly. There are one of two configs you can bring them in.
* Anti-infantry. This brings hurrican bolters and grav guns. They can shred infantry and armor at mid-range.
* Anti-armor. This brings TL LC and ML. Taken with tank-hunter they can shred armor at range. Your trading the ability to kill hordes of infantry for range.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Finding the value of units has actually been the focus of my simhammering for the past few months. I've pinned it down to the following traits.

* Damage per Point
* Resilience per Point
* Area of Influence
* Movement capacity
* Scoring ability

Which trait is more important is arbitrary. You might like units that are more resilient, you might like glass cannons, or you might like fast units. That's all up to you. The point of the comparisons is to find the units that best fit your wishes.

If you have suggestions I'm all ears

Sure sure, I agree.

But for many units, you can really narrow down which statistics are truly important. Take Firewarriors as an example. Resilience is pretty much useless. The only thing that really matters is that A) they can score and B) how much damage they can put out. Even then, you're almost always taking either a bare minimum squad or a full squad, with the occasional exception for something in between to save that extra 10 points you need for an additional piece of war-gear somewhere else. The efficiency of the unit is (almost) irrelevant.

Its a similar argument for Devastator Centurions. You can do an efficiency calculation and find out what the best unit size is per point, but in reality, that unit has a specific job. If you're using them to take out vehicles, for example, they need to have enough firepower to ensure they will strip 3 hull points or get 1 explode result every turn to fulfill their role, regardless of what the most efficient unit size is.

My point is this: efficiency can me a useful metric, but not in a vacuum. IMHO, you have to do the following: A) establish what the role you want a unit to play is, B) figure out what the bare minimum firepower/unit size is required for it to accomplish its goal, C) consider other metrics such as efficiency as compared to other units in similar roles, resiliency, etc.

Again, not criticizing. I agree with your efficiency calcs, just think that they are not the primary thing to look at in this situation.