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So I played a game recently against a DE player and we had an interesting situation come up. He was running venoms and had positioned them behind LOS blocking terrain but I was still able to see the wings that come off the side of the venom. Now the question I had was for a vehicle like a venom how much do you need to be able to see to fire at it.. I know in the BRB it states that if you can only see the extreme edge that the vehicle gains +1 to its cover save, but how would you draw the line of being able to see the extreme edge vs not seeing the vehicle at all? I have attached a picture that roughly approximates my units view of his venom. Would I be able to shoot at the venom in the picture as long as gets a 3+ cover save or is that not enough to be considered visible to be able to shoot?

Owl

You need to be able to see 1% (basically, anything at all), and yes wings count for vehicles. Looking at your picture, I'd say you can shoot at that venom. Though I can see an argument for potentially boosting the save by one, I wouldn't even apply that to this scenario. (presuming the front of the wing is part of the front facing of the vehicle)

I've always played things like this as a personal call. The wing is a hard part of the model, not comparable to a banner or antenna.

Competitive game I would have had a Judge look at it and make the call.

Friendly game I would not have shot at it, or gotten some other player in the store to make the call.

This would qualify ,wings being part of the hull for vehicles.
I personnally would give it a +1 to its cover save.

Technically speaking, wouldn't that part of the venom be considered side armor? In that case, if you were shooting the venom from directly in its front arc, you would get the +1 to cover save.

I'd give him a plus one but remember that the venom and all DE Skimmers need those wings to fly and/or maneuver according to the DE codex so hell yeah so can see it and shoot it. It's the trade off for all the cool DE vehicle rules.

I your opp wants to hide, he should play SM's with Rhinos or Orks with they're old (still legal) Trukks!

 BarBoBot wrote:
Technically speaking, wouldn't that part of the venom be considered side armor? In that case, if you were shooting the venom from directly in its front arc, you would get the +1 to cover save.

Agreed. To use another example:


Imagine you're firing from about 10" in front of the tank, but you can only see one sponson. That sponson isn't in the front arc, but you clearly are. That's a +1.

The diagram you posted is an X across a rectangle. The rectangle has short and long sides. Your rectangle is oriented with short sides north-south The Venom is a differently-shaped rectangle, with short sides more east-west.

I'd say turn that photo 90d. and you have a good approximation of a Venom's facings. Which would mean that the wing IS in the front arc.

Do you understand what I'm saying? I feel like I'm not as clear as I could hope for....

So in each game, when this comes up its usually a two way street and I give my opponent an option to play it 1of two ways.
1. That wing section is not part of the hull and it doesn't count for shooting but then it doesn't count for disembarking.
2. It's part of the hull and while I can shoot it, it also counts as part of the hull for disembarking purposes.

Later in the game, about half the time after they have decided it was one way or another they will try to do something that directly conflicts with what they said earlier e.g. Disembarking from the wing that was previously declared not part of the hull. When they do I point out that previous decision that they made and they end up having to adjust appropriately. The game ends up being quite smoother in the long run since you left it up to your opponent how that would be handled.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
The diagram you posted is an X across a rectangle. The rectangle has short and long sides. Your rectangle is oriented with short sides north-south The Venom is a differently-shaped rectangle, with short sides more east-west.

I'd say turn that photo 90d. and you have a good approximation of a Venom's facings. Which would mean that the wing IS in the front arc.

I was going to disagree - but then I went and actually had a look at a Venom model. Its entire "box" profile is actually quite square - the wings are about as wide as the front prow is long. So, yes, the wings exist in the front facing as well.

Reversing my position faster than the panicking protagonist in a Roland Emmerich movie!

I don't get it. Side or rear, okay. But front? How do you get something entirely in the back half of the model in the front arc while dividing lines from the center? You'd have to draw the dividing lines for the front arc backwards.

It's not about what part you are looking at, it's where you are standing. If you see that part of the wing you're in the front arc.

That's nice, liturgies of blood, but the topic under discussion is being in one arc while drawing LoS to another arc. You see, in the rules, this gives a bonus to the target's cover save, so it's relevant.

Pyrian wrote:
That's nice, liturgies of blood, but the topic under discussion is being in one arc while drawing LoS to another arc. You see, in the rules, this gives a bonus to the target's cover save, so it's relevant.

Ok well thanks for jumping down my throat. If you're unsure then just read page 75 as it makes it very clear. My post was a model that was seeing the OP's drawing would be standing in the front arc and looking at something in the side arc.

Your post seemed to not understand how you determine what arc you are in, I'm sorry if that got you right in the feels but that's how it read. So no you don't measure backwards. You figure out where the model shooting is in the arcs, then look at what part of the vehicle it can see and then resolve as per page 75.

So to draw this back in:

1) We all agree the venom is a legal target based on the picture.

2) Whatever the wing counts as on the actual model (side or front) indicates wether or not the cover save is unmodified. If all your models are closest to the front facing of the venom and the wing is in the side facing, then it's +1. If it (the wing) is part of the arc they (the models) are closest to, then it is not.

Does that answer your questions OP?

(this might help, based on the model I'd say the wings are definitely in the 'side' arc and retract my earlier comment about them potentially being in front)

 Neorealist wrote:
So to draw this back in:

1) We all agree the venom is a legal target based on the picture.

2) Whatever the wing counts as on the actual model (side or front) indicates wether or not the cover save is unmodified. If all your models are closest to the front facing of the venom and the wing is in the side facing, then it's +1. If it (the wing) is part of the arc they (the models) are closest to, then it is not.

Does that answer your questions OP?

(this might help, based on the model I'd say the wings are definitely in the 'side' arc and retract my earlier comment about them potentially being in front)

I think everyone has done a good job answering my questions. Basically the way we played it was that I could not actually see his venoms just because it was a casual game. Though in a more tournament style setting I believe that I could draw line of sight and therefore could shoot at it.

As far as the facing goes I would tend to agree with Neo in that the wings are actually part of the side armor and would thus grant a +1 to the cover save in my original example. The venom is really a worst case scenario when it comes to armor facing because the "front" armor panel seems to extend all the way down the sides without a break unlike any tank which has 4 distinct sides to shoot at.

Owl