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I know it's early to do this but I honestly don't care. Help would be appreciated.

Imperial Fist's Doctrine

Librarian ~100 pts
Hoping for Gate of Infinity with Sternguard

Tactical Squad x10 ~200 pts
Grav Weapon
Plas Can
Rhino

Tactical Squad x10 ~200 pts
Grav Weapon
Plas Can
Rhino

Tactical Squad x10 ~200 pts
Grav Weapon
Plas Can
Rhino

Sternguard x10 ~275
Rhino
Combi Melta x2
Combi Flamer x2

Devastator Squad x9 ~216 pts
3x ML
1x Las

Devastator Squad x 7 ~153 pts
3x MLs

Stormtalon ~155 pts
Skyhammer MLs

Suggestions?

I can tell you right now SM specific psychics are completely gone

Devastators should have 4 guns. Drop a guy from the 9 man and add a gun to the 7 man.

I prefer 5-6 man devs but thats your choice.

I also prefer lascannons as they are supposed to get tank hunter for IF.

Pods are better than rhinos I think when using the IF doctrine. Gets the bolters there faster.

At least get the sternguard in a pod. Double tap/combi weapons are there specialty and a good opponent will target there rhino fast.

THere is no place for the librarian in your list. Rhinos can oly hold 10 guys meaning that the lib is on foot most likely by himself unless you put him with the devs which is not useful.

Maybe 9 sternguard in a pod with lib?

Pretty cool, but I would caution against any list that requires a specific psychic power on your Librarian, unless you've got Tigurius because he's got 3 powers and can re-roll, so he's got a great chance of getting the power he wants.

Some of these costs don't seem in line with the rumors though.

Sternguard are supposed to be 3 points cheaper than 5th, but Combi-weapons are supposed to jump 5 pts from 5th. Thus 10 men + 4 combi + rhino would be closer to 295 pts, not 270. If you get down to 9 men to include the Libby in the Rhino with the Sternguard then it would likely be 272 points, closer to your thoughts.

On Devastators, are you taking sgt upgrades or flakk missiles on either? 9 Devs with 3 MLs and 1 LC would be around 190 with no Flakk missiles or sgt upgrades, and 7 Devs with 3 MLs would be 143 with no Flakk or sgt upgrades.

Also, Libbies will likely be the same cost as C:CSM sorcerers, so a ML1 one is probably 35ish points cheaper than 5th, and the Epistolary upgrade is 25 points cheaper. Thus, he might be a little less than 100 points.

How much do Flakk Missiles cost?

 Feasible wrote:
I know it's early to do this but I honestly don't care. Help would be appreciated.

Imperial Fist's Doctrine

Librarian ~100 pts

First off, they re 65, not 100. Second of all, unless you're planning to use a Primaris they're incoherent and should be avoided.

Hoping for Gate of Infinity with Sternguard

Never rely on rolling a pregame dice to form a strategy.

Tactical Squad x10 ~200 pts
Grav Weapon
Plas Can
Rhino

Tactical Squad x10 ~200 pts
Grav Weapon
Plas Can
Rhino

Tactical Squad x10 ~200 pts
Grav Weapon
Plas Can
Rhino

Ditch the plasma cannons, if you're meching you'll be lucky to fire them once. The extra bolter will serve you better. Plus they cost a fair bit in this edition.

Sternguard x10 ~275
Rhino
Combi Melta x2
Combi Flamer x2

Take combi-plasmas/Gravs instead. Melta is by far the inferior option when AT is otherwise so easy to get and having a squad capable of annihilating a Riptide in one blow is far better.

However. Don't put this squad into a Rhino. They're too weak. They'll get blown up well before they get anywhere. For 275 or more points that is unacceptable. Take a DP instead.

Devastator Squad x9 ~216 pts
3x ML
1x Las

Devastator Squad x 7 ~153 pts
3x MLs

Always Max out weapons, ditch any and all ML's. They're mediocre and they're crap against MC's like Riptides. Las cannons are far better, and its arguable that taking Tri-Las Preds then becomes the better option. You should have maximum 2 ablative wounds for the Dev squad. You don't have points to waste in the squad.

Stormtalon ~155 pts
Skyhammer MLs

I'd take two at least. Flakk Devs pale in this edition.

Suggestions?

Imperial Fist's Doctrine

Librarian ~65 pts

Tactical Squad x10 ~195 pts
Grav Weapon
Drop Pod

Tactical Squad x10 ~195 pts
Grav Weapon
Drop Pod

Tactical Squad x10 ~195 pts
Grav Weapon
Drop Pod

Sternguard x9 ~262 pts
Drop Pod
Combi Melta x2
Combi Flamer x1

Devastator Squad x7 ~ 193 pts
1x ML
2x Las

Stormtalon ~155 pts
Skyhammer MLs

Stormtalon ~155 pts
Skyhammer MLs

85 points left?

Flakk missiles are equal to a dime coin (I don't think I'm allowed to tell you the exact costs).

I disagree that missiles aren't good once you take into account Tank Hunters. Sure, if you run into Riptides a lot they're poor, but most MCs, have 3+ saves. Also having the option to go frag against horde armies is nice.

Plus, you need MLs to get Flakks. While 2 stormtalons will help, a couple flakk missiles could help to compliment the anti-air.

Also, while Grav weapons are nice, I think Tac squads are better outfitted with meltaguns or plasmaguns with the sgt with a combi-melta or combi-plasma. I find one of the best strategies to be five men in a pod taking a melta-gun with the sgt taking a combi-melta. They drop, get off two melta shots and have a decent chance to pod a vehicle. They do end up largely as cannon fodder after that, but they're cheap and have a well defined role, and if they die they're actually doing their job of distracting the enemy from my other things. Just make sure you have other scoring units on the list.

Still, it's your list, so if you have a vision, that's fine. Grav weapons are good against elite infantry, so if your opponent has a number of those sitting around on turn one the list is money. I just don't know how often that will happen.

My friend likes Riptides, Suits, Terminators, Chosen, and Tanks. So meh i dunno. It'll probably depend on the point cost. Is this list competitive enough for an Imp Fist doctrine army? If anybody could drop out an Imp Fist list that was competitive I'd be all ears.

I mean, the book isn't even out yet, so we won't know what is and isn't competitive with what doctrines for at least a few months.

Obviously you want to take advantage of your Chapter Tactics, so things firing regular bolters are good, as are Devastators and Centurions, who get Tank Hunters.

If your friend likes Riptides, Suit, Termies, Chosen, and Tanks, then grav, plas, and lascannons are good, though missiles can have their use against those suits, which it can ID, and against their vehicles with tank hunters on the Devs.

Basically, a good mix of both will serve you well, though if he leans more towards 2+ save stuff than 3+ stuff maybe go more towards grav/plas/las.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Flakk missiles are equal to a dime coin (I don't think I'm allowed to tell you the exact costs).

I disagree that missiles aren't good once you take into account Tank Hunters.

vehicles are generally avoided and its not needed anyway most of the time. Extra Anti-MC is far more useful most of the time compared to anti-horde and S9 means you can handle AV14.

Plus, you need MLs to get Flakks. While 2 stormtalons will help, a couple flakk missiles could help to compliment the anti-air.

2 Storm Talons is sufficient AA and taking ML's should be avoided, especially since Flakk missiles are so expensive and inefficient.

Also, while Grav weapons are nice, I think Tac squads are better outfitted with meltaguns or plasmaguns with the sgt with a combi-melta or combi-plasma. I find one of the best strategies to be five men in a pod taking a melta-gun with the sgt taking a combi-melta. They drop, get off two melta shots and have a decent chance to pod a vehicle.

A plasma/grav alpha strike is far better. Melta isn't needed in this edition because its not versatile. Come up against a guy without or with minimal weak vehicles? They're suddenly only half as effective as they should have been.

Still, it's your list, so if you have a vision, that's fine. Grav weapons are good against elite infantry, so if your opponent has a number of those sitting around on turn one the list is money. I just don't know how often that will happen.

Elite infantry and MC's you mean, which are both common and the potential and chance is far greater than taking melta's for vehicles.


/quote]

Any ideas on bumping this up to an 1850 point list? I'm thinking about adding a dreadnought in a droppod and maybe another HQ?

It's take more combi-weapons or special/heavy flamer weapons on the Sternies then add maybe another Devastator, Sternguard or other squad.

Something interesting is that an assault squad with a pair of flamers and combi flamer in a DP is 105 points (DP is free, flamers are dirt cheap), which means you could take two and buff the Sternies. That's what I'd do.

Wow, but can't you only take 1 flamer per 5 men? and isn't that an easy KP?

 Feasible wrote:
Wow, but can't you only take 1 flamer per 5 men? and isn't that an easy KP?

No, there's no model limitation for flamer selection. In purge the alien they may be an easy KP but you can use them to annihilate a unit with 6 templates to earn something back. Thing is, practically everything in a SM army is an easy KP nowadays. You just have to blitz your opponent and take the retaliatory punches at your core. Losing a 105 pt unit won't spell doom.

Hey, just thought I'd let you know that some the posters assumptions on point costs and special rules are actually wrong. You may want to wait for the codex to come out before trying to do the math for your army.

I know this probably isn't the answer you want, and as good as the updated list looks, why not just put together the list you want, and once the book comes out you can update it to reflect the new points costs and wargear. Thats what I'm going to do with my Salamanders.

-CotW

Omega, I still think you're selling missiles short, they are versatile with a lot of range. And melta is definitely still important. Plasma won't do much against AV13 or 14, and unless you have a ton of plasma, AV12 can still be tough. Not to mention, melta will ID T4 and lower stuff, so if you run up against crisis suits they still do work. You act like no one takes any vehicles anymore, but they're still out there. For a TAC list, you want a mix of plas, ML, melta, and lascannons, along with now grav. That can be tough to shove into 1500, but it's definitely doable with Devs, Tacs, and Sternguard all there. If you load up on too much plas/grav while neglecting other things then the moment someone puts a few tanks on the table you're going to have a very bad day.

With three Tac squads you could probably go something like Grav/combi-grav on one, plas/combi-plas on the second, and melta/combi-melta on the third. Gives you coverage for a variety of threats, and with 4 pods you can choose what to keep in reserve based on what your opponent put on the table. Got some elite infantry and an MC? Drop one and two. Got a bunch of tanks? Drop two and three, crack them open, and if there are elite infantry inside pod one with the grav will mop up nicely.

Also, while normally I'd say 2 flyers is enough anti-air, frankly I don't like Stormtalons. AV11 with only 2HP means that if your opponent brought any anti-air of reasonable power he's going to shoot those out of the sky before they can even do anything. And you're investing a lot of points in those two models. That's why I'd suggest some extra anti-air, because if those get knocked out of the sky, you're in serious trouble if they've got anything still up there.

From wrote:
Hey, just thought I'd let you know that some the posters assumptions on point costs and special rules are actually wrong. You may want to wait for the codex to come out before trying to do the math for your army.

Which ones are inaccurate? I've been going by talkwargaming's rumor roundup (http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marines-roll-up-special_29.html#.UikoIBtJOSo, which is based off of 40k radio's info., which is supposedly solid. If not, how is it different?


Edit:
In general, I don't think I'm going to be a huge fan of grav weapons coming out of drop pods with infantry. When you move with salvo weapons range get halved, and you fire less. You're still capable of doing damage to MCs and elite infantry, but you've got to be awful close, and since rumors say grav guns only do things to vehicles on 6s (immobilizing them, not even capable of destroying them), you're kind of cutting yourself off from engaging two types of priority targets, light vehicles and heavy vehicles. Plasma is definitely better if you don't go melta, since you're able to go after all three kinds of priority targets, MCs, elite infantry, and light vehicles (you can't get heavy vehicles though).

If you want to run lots of grav stuff, I think bikers and centurions are your best bet. Bikers are relentless, so they can move and keep the full range and number of shots (not to mention, you can take 2, and a combi-grav for 9 grav shots!), while Centurions can take the Grav Cannon, which has a longer range, more shots, and you can get the grav amp on them. Also, I'm not sure where I read it, but I thought they were slow and purposeful too, which would allow you to move 6" and keep the full range and shots.

But again, if you're really set on having grav weapons on the tac squad, that's fine, they should still be dangerous, they just need to be used very strategically.

I probably agree with you on the Grav after looking at it. I was under trh impression they were assault 2 18".

I still disagree with taking ML's and melta's. A Lascannon is worth the extra 5 points and MC killing power every time over frag missiles and cheapness. Kraks really are underwhelming when it comes down to it.

Las cannons should form the core of your potential AT, 6-8 shots per turn and your innate ability to wreck most vehicles in assault means that you need little more. With tank hunter on top vehicles being threatening becomes a bad joke.

Vehicles are far too rare a sight and far too weak anyway to ever warrant taking melta's. Instant death T4? Wow, whoop. How many targets is that worth it on. You want total efficiency with your choices, not weapons that are only decent sometimes or become useless against some targets often. I used to take ML dev's all the time, trust me, they're crappy when it comes down to it.

A TAC list does not want a sloppy mix of different weapons. You want duality and efficiency. Plasmas annihilate certain targets, you have everything else to handle anyone stuck in 5th edition.

Storm Talons can be manipulated by letting your opponent go first if his flyers are truly threatening, meaning you come in after and rip him to shreds. You can also fly over other flyers and use the 360 arc assault cannon to hit their rear armour. They're adequate.

Interceptor is not common and usually not strong enough to kill a flyer unless its something like a Quad Gun. Do the simple thing and plan for it. LOS tricks, target priority, etc.

I just wish I had more Lascan models

Don't Tau have a bunch of ways to get interceptor?

They're the main big bads on the tabletop now too which is being built to counter by a lot of lists, which is why I'd caution against relying too much on things vulnerable to intercepter weapons if you're trying to make a competitive list.

The other thing to remember long term (and this is why I still like MLs), is that the MC era of meta probably sees a step back with all the new grav weapons, though Tyranids will still get in on the fun. Thing is, Tyranids, as well as the two next rumored codices, IG and Orks, can all run horde lists. And IG and Orks also have solid options for vehicle spam lists. If/when the meta swings back towards them a bit, having something besides grav and plas will help. Las can do a lot, but against hordes you'll be in a bind.

But then again, that's likely at least 6ish months off, plenty of time to develop a new list to meet those new threats and catch up with the meta.