Many many stupid questions.

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**Ziffel**

Hi peeps.

As posted in my introduction, I'm a recent returnee to the whole GW world and although I have knowledge of the games etc I know little to nothing of how to play. I was predominantly a painter/collector

Anyhoo, I've had a couple of "skirmish" fights I believe they are from the Dark Vengeance box set models and quick start guide. I've also tried to find the answer from within the main rulebook or looking online and have not managed to solve the issues myself so I was wondering if you kind and lovely peeps would answer some reeaaaallly simple stuff.

1. If one unit wipes out another unit in its shooting phase, is it allowed to charge a different unit?
2. If I wanted a loyal space marine army, would I be allowed to use imperial fists colours/schema etc, even though they have no codex?
3. With regards to any army, are you allowed to run older models in current games, be it a friendly or tournament?
4. WTF happened to squats, where did they go :( ?

Cheers
Ziff

**Kain**

Ziffel wrote:
Hi peeps.

As posted in my introduction, I'm a recent returnee to the whole GW world and although I have knowledge of the games etc I know little to nothing of how to play. I was predominantly a painter/collector

Anyhoo, I've had a couple of "skirmish" fights I believe they are from the Dark Vengeance box set models and quick start guide. I've also tried to find the answer from within the main rulebook or looking online and have not managed to solve the issues myself so I was wondering if you kind and lovely peeps would answer some reeaaaallly simple stuff.

1. If one unit wipes out another unit in its shooting phase, is it allowed to charge a different unit?
2. If I wanted a loyal space marine army, would I be allowed to use imperial fists colours/schema etc, even though they have no codex?
3. With regards to any army, are you allowed to run older models in current games, be it a friendly or tournament?
4. WTF happened to squats, where did they go :( ?

Cheers
Ziff

I'd be happy to answer those questions for you!

1. Elaborate. Although if you completely wipe out a unit in the shooting phase or via overwatch you don't have to try and charge them since the assault phase is the last part of a turn, technically you don't have to charge *anyone* during an assault phase if you don't want to, not even if a unit has rage, as it's turned into quite a nice buff these days.
2. You always were able to, heck the new Codex gives them special rules.
3. Absolutely!
4. The Tyranids ate them.

Read this for the out of universe reason as to why Squats are no longer their own army.

Jervis Johnson wrote:I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantities that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realized what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regretted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homeworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with existing army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson

Head Fanatic

**General Annoyance**

Welcome back to the hobby Ziff!

As Kain said, you don't have to assault a unit - sometimes it's not a good idea at all! But no, I do not believe you can assault another unit after wiping out a unit in a shooting phase - your soldiers focussed all their efforts on destroying that unit this turn, and don't have time to notice anything else.

Of course you can use Imperial Fists! Most of the codexes are designed for multiple armies within that race. Like Kain said, I believe there are new doctrines for most chapters in the new codex.

As long as your opponent knows what the model is representing, and what it's equipped with, then there is no problem in fielding older models. Heck it makes an army more interesting.

Squats? I have no knowledge.

Hoped this clarified - happy hunting!

G.A.

**Ziffel**

Kain wrote:
1. Elaborate. Although if you completely wipe out a unit in the shooting phase or via overwatch you don't have to try and charge them since the assault phase is the last part of a turn, technically you don't have to charge *anyone* during an assault phase if you don't want to, not even if a unit has rage, as it's turned into quite a nice buff these days.

I understand a unit isn't forced to charge, shoot or move for that fact. I was just curious as to the posibility of if they could. I've read that a unit firing has only the option to charge the target they shot at. If a unit wipe out an entire target unit they would have nothing to charge at. Would they then be able to charge a different enemy unit they haven't shot at?

Kain wrote:
2. You always were able to, heck the new Codex gives them special rules.

Am I correct in thinking this would be somewhere in the space marine codex?

Kain wrote:

4. The Tyranids ate them.

Read this for the out of universe reason as to why Squats are no longer their own army.

Jervis Johnson wrote:I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.........

I did at first think that was a comical answer until I read your linked thread. I was considering the idea if sporting a Squat army if they still existed as well as a Tyranid army because I liked the idea of none humanoid. However, as Squats don't technically exist any longer and it has been balmed on the Nids i think im going to drop both ideas. I'll just get a Warhammer Fantasy army of dwarves together

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahh thanks General Annoyance.

**Lynata**

Ziffel wrote:I was considering the idea if sporting a Squat army if they still existed as well as a Tyranid army because I liked the idea of none humanoid. However, as Squats don't technically exist any longer and it has been balmed on the Nids i think im going to drop both ideas. I'll just get a Warhammer Fantasy army of dwarves together

Technically, they still exist - the 6E Rulebook mentions them as an Abhuman offshoot of the main species, similar to Ogryns or Ratlings. Like Jervis suggested, you could probably run an Imperial Guard regiment that consists partially or entirely of Squats? I'm sure a lot of oldschool players would appreciate the reference.

**sing your life**

Ziffel wrote:

2. If I wanted a loyal space marine army, would I be allowed to use imperial fists colours/schema etc, even though they have no codex?

But IF do have a codex [sort of], there are some rules for using IF in the new space marine codex.

**Ziffel**

I might get round to that once I've got a primary team and the rules all under my belt. For now I'll have to concentrate on picking an army, sticking to it and getting some games done.

**Kain**

Ziffel wrote:
Kain wrote:
1. Elaborate. Although if you completely wipe out a unit in the shooting phase or via overwatch you don't have to try and charge them since the assault phase is the last part of a turn, technically you don't have to charge *anyone* during an assault phase if you don't want to, not even if a unit has rage, as it's turned into quite a nice buff these days.

I understand a unit isn't forced to charge, shoot or move for that fact. I was just curious as to the posibility of if they could. I've read that a unit firing has only the option to charge the target they shot at. If a unit wipe out an entire target unit they would have nothing to charge at. Would they then be able to charge a different enemy unit they haven't shot at?

Kain wrote:
2. You always were able to, heck the new Codex gives them special rules.

Am I correct in thinking this would be somewhere in the space marine codex?

Kain wrote:

4. The Tyranids ate them.

Read this for the out of universe reason as to why Squats are no longer their own army.

Jervis Johnson wrote:I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.........

I did at first think that was a comical answer until I read your linked thread. I was considering the idea if sporting a Squat army if they still existed as well as a Tyranid army because I liked the idea of none humanoid. However, as Squats don't technically exist any longer and it has been balmed on the Nids i think im going to drop both ideas. I'll just get a Warhammer Fantasy army of dwarves together

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahh thanks General Annoyance.

Ahh thanks for explaining that.

2. Yep, the imperial fists have their own segment in the Space Marines Codex.

4. As Jervis and Lynata said, the squats aren't all dead, they're just broken as a major power. If you want to you can field them as the Imperial Guard. I can't imagine anyone giving you any lip for it as long as you made it clear as to what counted as what.

**Skinnereal**

Ziffel wrote:
Hi peeps.

As posted in my introduction, I'm a recent returnee to the whole GW world and although I have knowledge of the games etc I know little to nothing of how to play. I was predominantly a painter/collector

Anyhoo, I've had a couple of "skirmish" fights I believe they are from the Dark Vengeance box set models and quick start guide. I've also tried to find the answer from within the main rulebook or looking online and have not managed to solve the issues myself so I was wondering if you kind and lovely peeps would answer some reeaaaallly simple stuff.

1. If one unit wipes out another unit in its shooting phase, is it allowed to charge a different unit?
2. If I wanted a loyal space marine army, would I be allowed to use imperial fists colours/schema etc, even though they have no codex?
3. With regards to any army, are you allowed to run older models in current games, be it a friendly or tournament?
4. WTF happened to squats, where did they go :( ?

Cheers
Ziff

Hi there.
WB to 40k.

From memory:
1. You can only assault the target of your shooting phase. If it's dead, you cannot assault that turn. See mention of transports and passengers for rules about that kind of thing. Even using templates to shoot at multiple units, only the initial model and its unit count for assault targets.
2. Fill your power-armoured boots. Colour doesn't matter, unless your opponent is being picky, and insist you use one of the other SM codices (Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Dark Angels). Looking at the rumours of the new SM codex, you might be 'restricted' to using certain chapter-specific abilities.
3. If GW made it, it's legal. If it's Forge World or other GW-but-not-GW, it depends (see 2). for Non-GW models, it usually only matter if you're playing at a GW store or tournament. As for scratch-built stuff, apply the Rule Of Cool. Does it look good? Go for it.
4. Squats got 'Squatted'. It really is a term these days. It got messy, and the GW forums ate any reference to them even after the models disappeared.

**Nobody_Holme**

Be sure to check in on how an army works before buying, though, things have changed a bit since 2nd ed.

Not just for the worse, not just for the better, but it does mean you'll need to be prepared for there to be changes

**Quanar**

Ziffel wrote:
1. If one unit wipes out another unit in its shooting phase, is it allowed to charge a different unit?

Two quotes to throw in here:
Rulebook Page 20, last paragraph. A unit can only charge at the unit it targetted in that turn's shooting phase.
However, there is one exception (in the main rules at least, there may be others in specific Codexes) to the above, on Rulebook page 80, the last sentence about transport vehicles. Units that shot at the transport before it was destroyed can assault the contents.

**Kilkrazy**

I am moving this thread to YMDC.

**orkybenji**

1. No. The only exception is assaulting the passengers of a transport you destroyed in the shooting phase.

2. A new space marine codex just came out about a week ago. It has special rules for Imperial Fists armies. Regardless, you can use the codex for any other SM chapter, including home brewed ones. The only exceptions would be: Blood Angels, dark angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and Chaos Space Marines. These all have their own codices.

3. All GW models are legal even out-of-print ones. Generally any player will accept anything as long as it makes sense and is clear, even if its an old model or a different company's model.

4. GW discontinued it due to lack of popularity among fans and design staff. They got a lot of people upset about it and some still are. They have said they won't do that ever again. Hence why Sisters of Battle just limp along with very outdated models.

**Ghaz**

Actually the new Codex: Space Marines is officially released tomorrow.