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OK so i played my first couple of games, i expected to loose and i did - nothing new there, but in my second game i was playing Cygnar with Caine as my caster against Retribution.

I set up first then the Ret player set up. I did my first turn then he annihilated me with this combo -

His caster did his feat ( friendlies get +1 dice to hit and a +1 dice damage) ( no idea what caster )

His Mage hunter team moved and then shot me through a building and a jack( something about not needing LOS ) 11 shots came at me !! (10 guys and an attachment ?)

Caine died, game over.

Is this what i should expect when playing against Ret or is there a way to stop it ( apparently i couldn't shoot the mage hunters as they have stealth too !!!) ( and they were behind a building ).

Also any DEF boost doesn't work against this unit either !!!!!!

My opponent wasn't an ass about it - indeed he explained what he was doing and why these actions could take place etc, im just after any tips to avoid this happening again - do i need to kill them fast ? If so how when i cant see them

Do i need to run away from them and make them chase me all over the table?

CAn a caster heal damage as he takes it or do i have to wait until my turn?



PLease help - and if you do can you NOT use any acronyms as like i said ive only played twice and haven't really got a clue what they all mean .

Dave

PS i just realised i used LOS in the explanation so i will clarify. I've played wargames before just not warmachine so general acronyms are ok, specifically warmachine ones aren't !!!!

PPS is the ret unit overpowered or do i just not know enough about different units etc to counter it ?

So in your second game ever, your opponent let you wander with Caine into Ravyn snipe+feat+go range without saying a word? Get better opponents because that guy seems like a dick!

That unit was a Mage Hunter Strike Force with unit attachment, they have stealth but our own Gun Mages can ignore their stealth with our unit attachment.

And yes, the way to fight this particular retribution caster is to basically stay outside the MHSF (Mage Hunter Strike Force) effective range of 22" until you've dealt with them. Luckily, like I've said, Gun Mages with the unit attachment and Deadeye are just the tool to kill MHSF, while MHSF will struggle to kill Gun Mages in return.

Yeah, if your opponent knew you were a new player and took his snipe-feat-go list against you without saying how it could be countered, he's definitely... Well, a bad teacher, we'll leave it at that. The combination of the Mage Hunter Strike Force and Ravvyn (who's feat gives them boosted attack rolls - not +1/+1 - that allows them to easily hit casters) is a powerful one, but it's well known in the game and is far from unbeatable.

In general, I often tell newer players to expect to lose a lot of games at first - that's normal, it takes a while to really get the hang of the game. But let your opponents know that you're new, and ask them to explain their lists and what they're capable of so you're not just blind sided like that, and can have a fair game. I'll leave the specific tactical advice to cygnar players, but good luck for your next few games

Thanks guys, i actually have some gun mages ready to be painted - i guess they will be my next job.

Like i said in the first post he wasn't an ass, and he explained what he was doing and why and we even had a talk afterwards on what the powers of his unit were, but i don't know my own forces well enough yet to
be able to pick anything that might counter them.

But now i do !

One other question - should i also get the unit attachment for my gun mages or is it 2 points i can spend elsewhere?


Thanks again for the help

Dave

+edit + OOPS just re-read phantoms post where he says get the attchment so question answered !!

The unit attachment is what lets Gun Mages ignore stealth, so in the situation you described he's what you would need.

He also lets your gun mages ignore cover, which makes them even more accurate. Finally, he's also a jack marshal with an excellent special ability for shooty jacks.

Personally, I think if you're bringing the gun mages, he's pretty much always worth it, unless you're playing a very small game of like 15 points.

ComTrav wrote:
The unit attachment is what lets Gun Mages ignore stealth, so in the situation you described he's what you would need.

He also lets your gun mages ignore cover, which makes them even more accurate. Finally, he's also a jack marshal with an excellent special ability for shooty jacks.

Personally, I think if you're bringing the gun mages, he's pretty much always worth it, unless you're playing a very small game of like 15 points.

This man speaks the truth.

Yes, he costs 2 points and that may seem a bit high for a single model, but he really takes the whole unit to the next level!

thank you guys - appreciate the help

in response to your replies - whats so good about jack marshall skill ?

also if they are so good should i take the max units allowed ? ( 2)

atm i will be playing up to 25- 30 points maybe 35 at a stretch


Dave

areanl4 wrote:
thank you guys - appreciate the help

in response to your replies - whats so good about jack marshall skill ?

For the Gun Mage UA, he allows any jack that he marshals to choose one of the bullet types that the unit has, so that jack can have +4 RNG, an extra die on damage (on a crit), or the push / knock down effect (on a crit).

areanl4 wrote:

also if they are so good should i take the max units allowed ? ( 2)

As a general rule: no.

Except for some exceptions ( ), Warmachine doesn't reward taking multiples of anything, you are better served using those points to add more tools to your list.

Also, like we've said, what makes the Gun Mages such a good unit is their unit attachment and you can only take one of those in any list (except for pCaines theme force, but that is another story).

wow thanks again,

so if i have a unit of sword knights and a unit of gun mages i cant have an attachment for each , i can only choose either/or ?

if so i never knew that.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
looking through my cygnar book ive thought of this :

if i get a sentinel warjack and marshall him with the gun mage attachment, choosing extra die on damage for my bullet type - then *attack ( special attack ? ) does the extra die damage count for all the attacks from my *attack ?( ie 1-6 shots)

hope that makes sense.

Dave

areanl4 wrote:
wow thanks again,

so if i have a unit of sword knights and a unit of gun mages i cant have an attachment for each , i can only choose either/or ?

if so i never knew that.....

They can each have their own attachment. Generally, Unit Attachments are only a 1 per force thing (that's what the FA 1 on the card means). Not ONE UNIT ATTACHMENT, one of that particular attachment. Some theme forces allow you to take extras that don't count toward Force Allowance.

areanl4 wrote:
looking through my cygnar book ive thought of this :

if i get a sentinel warjack and marshall him with the gun mage attachment, choosing extra die on damage for my bullet type - then *attack ( special attack ? ) does the extra die damage count for all the attacks from my *attack ?( ie 1-6 shots)

hope that makes sense.

Dave

Afraid not, the magic bullets only work on normal attacks, not * attacks.

Some really quick, important notes:

1) His caster only gives an additional die on the /attack/ roll, not on the damage roll. While it probably wouldn't help Cain that much, it matters quite a bit otherwise.

2) To defend against it, you either A) keep away, or B) park Cain on a hill. They don't ignore elevation, so he has a decent chance of surviving at def 19. That being said, it's still pretty risky.

3) Gunmages are a great answer to the Mage Hunters. It should be noted that the do /not/ ignore cover, however. If you have the gunmages forward, they can often remove enough of the enemy mage hunter unit that they aren't much of a threat.

areanl4 wrote:

looking through my cygnar book ive thought of this :

if i get a sentinel warjack and marshall him with the gun mage attachment, choosing extra die on damage for my bullet type - then *attack ( special attack ? ) does the extra die damage count for all the attacks from my *attack ?( ie 1-6 shots)

hope that makes sense.

Dave

No, this doesn't work with special attacks.

However, the trick you suggested works with a Cyclone, because its 2d3 attacks are not special attacks.

Also note that the gun mages only do an extra damage die on crits. Part of why Deadeye is good with Gun Mages is it raises the chance for critical effects.

Awesome thanks for that so i need a cyclone for the xtra damage trick.

next question what is deadeye and who can give it to my gun mages?

thanks in anticipation

Dave

Deadeye is a buff spell handed out by certain warcasters. Caine1, Haley1, and Kara Sloan can all give it out.

And if you get the Cyclone kit, you should consider magnetizing the arms so you also have a Defender/Ironclad. Having these three jacks in your collection gives you plenty of flexibility in list building.

I second the magnetizing idea. It saves you alot of $ if you have the skills and tools.

My buddy runs a hunter under gun mages. He uses it to ding hard targets on the first turn of shooting and then just keeps using the knockback to keep key targets away while punching holes in them.

Have you looked at using different warcasters? Caine is neat and all, but he seems to require alot of finesse whereas a warcaster such as haley or siege seem much more straightforward. Siege brings a wide selection of ways to deal with stealth units like the MHSF and his feat is very effective for putting out a ton of damage and assassinations.

Hehe are you saying i lack finesse?

If you are i think you must have seen me play !

To be honest i picked caine because of an assassination topic i saw somewhere so maybe your right i need to get the basics first before i start charging my own troops in the back teleporting and shooting like a madman !!!!

I might give stryker a go - simply because i like the figures for him ( i have all 4, 5 if you count the iron kingdoms one ).

Thanks again everyone for the hints and tips in my ' im a newbie loser thread!!! '

Dave

The UA is a total MVP, way worth his points.

People would use 2 of him even without Gun Mages if they could

Stryker is definitely worth using to get the hang of your force.
His feat is defensive tho, so timing it's use is key.
I have always used it the turn I carry a charge in, or if I expect them to charge me.
Stryker has a good synergy with the Battlebox models, imo.
The Lancer lets him get his Knock Down (KD) spell further upfield.
The Ironclad either absorbs punishment, or you can charge it up, and get some more KD.
The Charger can then shoot 2 full boost shots.
Consider a Defender for the Gun Mage unit to Marshal.

If you don't have him, look into a Journeyman Warcaster.
He can control the Charger, or a Hunter, and take a focus load off Stryker, as well as giving you a second cast of Arcane Shield (AS).
A Squire will give you +2" Control Area and a spare focus for 3 turns.

Units, Gun Mages (ATGM) were mentioned and are a good choice.
Black 13th gunmage team (B13) are very good. Personally I wouldn't use them until 50, but that's me. Many Cygnar players have them in all lists.
Rangers are a key unit if you are playing shooty. Run one guy out toward your target, and get +2 to hit things within 2", (I believe).
Stormblade Infantry are a good mixed assault/shooty unit, especially maxed out with the unit attachment (UA) and Weapon Attachment (WA).
They have a short ranged shooting attack, that Snipe can help.
With AS cast on them, they will be solid, and maybe even take a charge with Stryker's Feat up.
Stormguard are a good Reach unit. There is also Silver Line Stormguard coming down the road, that give a different skillset to them.
Long Gunners are very good shooting units, but suffer from high cost, and scenarios may require them to move, which reduces their shooting output.

Mercenaries are beloved by most Cygnar players.
Greygore Boomhowler & Co are a unit of tough (on 4+ most turns), good ARM, medium base line cloggers that have a short range shooty, and a solid, but not great melee.
You probably won't kill a lot with them, but they will take some punishment before they die.
Cyleana Raffeal (sp?) & Nyss Hunters are good shooting, Weaponmaster in melee, high DEF infantry.
They suffer to AOE attacks, with their low ARM.
But Blur can make them nearly un-hittable by shooting, and snipe can make them threaten far.

Rupert Carvolo, a solo bagpipe player, can make your troops tough, or give pathfinder, or make them cause terror.
Eiryss - Mage Hunter. There are 2 versions of her to choose from.
The Mage Hunter is most useful against Warmachine armies. She can shoot a caster, dropping his focus, and preventing him gaining focus next turn.
The Angel is more versatile, as she is still effective vs Hordes armies. Be Aware that either will be a prime target every game.
I like Harlan Versh with the Stryker KD group.
His multi-fire can kill casters with his additional die vs models with upkeeps on them.

I'm done now... Hopefully I hit on the key things. But I'm sure I missed a few.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh! Sword Knights with UA and their not attached character Solo Runewood.
Sword Knights are a good cheap unit of infantry. Flank can be devastating. The UA has a good Jack Marshal Drive.

Runewood has a few abilities that help Sword Knights and other units, as well as giving Sword Knights Reform (After the unit completes its actions, they can each advance 3").
He is a 3pt solo tho

wow - thanks a lot

there is a lot of stuff in there for me, also a fair few models to buy !! ( no worries though i dont smoke or drink so i can spend my money on more important things ( figures !!!))

I really do appreciate the hints and tips given to me, i'm sure i might even win a game within a couple of months

Dave

One thing you'll find with this game is that it's one where it pays to do your homework about the models involved. There are a number of resources available which can help you do that, for instance there's a website called battle college which has a summary of each of the units in the game if you've not seen that already. If you do check that out do bear in mind though that the commentaries on each unit are simply the opinion of the writers as with all wikis, the descriptions of the abilities for the most part are pretty sound though.

Beyond that, well, once you've learned a trick from somewhere, all that's left to do is practice with it until you can get it right.

Beyond that... be prepared to try really off the wall tactics when they occur to you. "Run my low defence model next to something with stealth and is really squishy so I can shoot it in the back with large AOE attacks? Sure!" ...You'd be surprised about what some people come up with in time and that's one of the most rewarding aspects of this game I find.