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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... 43907.page
(Sorry if this has been posted, i've done a search also let me know if any of my facts are wrong)

So reading through the all the Q&A session with 40k radio, I noticed that the Space Marine Stalker is a whopping 5 points cheaper but fires 8 Str7 Ap4 shots and can split fire at BS2 if needed. They also say that it only has skyfire, no interceptor rules. But it also can't squadron.

So what do you guys think? I know for a fact my LGS has the new Space Marine codexes in so it's very likely that these are true stats.

5 points cheaper
8 Str7 Ap4 skyfire shots that can splitfire at BS2
AV 12 / 12 / 10
I don't know if it can shoot at ground targets (like the deamon soul grinder or whatever it's called)

I feel pretty bad that theirs is so much better than ours for the price. I hope in the next codex they fix ours to. More shots, armor and cheaper. Let the Space Marines keep the split fire and let us keep our ignore jink saves

Or maybe keep 4 shots and squadron but let us shoot at ground targets. I don't need interceptor but let me turn off my skyfire like that deamon thing. Does this give you hope for the Hydra to be more competitive in the next codex? Is 8 shots at BS 4 better than 4 shots at BS3 twin linked? (Id say 8 shots)

Thoughts?

 portugus wrote:

I don't know if it can shoot at ground targets (like the deamon soul grinder or whatever it's called)

The Soul Grinder's Harvester gun has two different firing modes: "Solid shot and Flakk shot."; second one has skyfire. From what I've heard, the tank can only shoot skyfire rounds.

Yep the tank can only shoot skyfire. I didn't know the soul grinder had two firing modes though, it thought it just said it can still shoot ground targets. :p I should've looked through the deamon codex.

Well, 97% of the time, the Soul Grinder is throwing down Ordnance pie plates so he can only snap shoot the harvester gun regardless.

First off, it's 4 shots, not 8. Split firing loses the twin-linking and drops down to BS2 as well, but you still get 4 shots at each target.

It's all the same problems that the hydra has, and can't be taken as a squadron.

No interceptor, BS1 against ground targets, only AV12 3HP.

It's basically a second quad-gun that chews a heavy support choice.

Not even a quad gun. The quad gun at least gets Interceptor.

Yeah it has two guns with 4 shots each, 8 shots. The hydra has two guns with 2 shots each, 4 shots. So the Stalker is twin linked as well? I did not know that. I also mentioned the fact that it fires at BS2 while split firing, I don't think I would ever split the shots, maybe I'm too used to guard :p

Indeed it does have all the same problems as a hydra but for 5 points less, it gets double the shots and better side armor than the hydra is my point.

Yeah sucks against troops and ground vehicles, but 8 X-linked shots are better than 4 x-linked. Also Tau and Eldar which are very common at the moment all have skimmers.

This is all based on the fact that I read each gun had 4 shots. If the Stalker only had side armor 12 for 5 less points than a hydra I wouldn't have made the thread. Its the fact that guard would have to get 2 hydras for more than double the cost and still be BS3. Does this make you think they'll cut the hydra cost, keep it the same but let it shoot ground targets like it's fluff says it can?

 portugus wrote:

Yeah it has two guns with 4 shots each, 8 shots. The hydra has two guns with 2 shots each, 4 shots. So the Stalker is twin linked as well? I did not know that. I also mentioned the fact that it fires at BS2 while split firing, I don't think I would ever split the shots, maybe I'm too used to guard :p

Indeed it does have all the same problems as a hydra but for 5 points less, it gets double the shots and better side armor than the hydra is my point.

Yeah sucks against troops and ground vehicles, but 8 X-linked shots are better than 4 x-linked. Also Tau and Eldar which are very common at the moment all have skimmers.

This is all based on the fact that I read each gun had 4 shots. If the Stalker only had side armor 12 for 5 less points than a hydra I wouldn't have made the thread. Its the fact that guard would have to get 2 hydras for more than double the cost and still be BS3. Does this make you think they'll cut the hydra cost, keep it the same but let it shoot ground targets like it's fluff says it can?

I'm sitting here with the book. It has 1 gun with 4 twinlinked shots, it's split fire mode is BS2 with 4 shots at 2 different targets.

Wargear:
Icarus stormcannon array
searchlight
smoke launchers

Icarus stormcannon array;
Single target = 48" S7, AP4, Heavy 4 skyfire, twinlinked
Dual targets = 48" S7, AP4, Heavy 4 Servo-tracking, skyfire. Select 2 targets and make a full shooting attack at each at BS2.

How are you getting 8 shots out of this?

I'm not going to debate that the hydra isn't bad, but it IS from a 4+ year old book that is an entire edition out of date, and this thing is better, but not by enough to warrant chewing a heavy support slot. I'll take my AA via contemptors, hyperios missile batteries, storm talons, vendettas and a quad-gun thanks.

Obviously I'm getting it from the fact that I thought it had two guns like my last post said, from someone else who said they had the book. The link in my first post who was answering questions said it was 8 shots. 4 shots is ok like I said I wouldn't have made this thread if I knew the tank only had 4 shots total from its array.

No interceptor?
Can't shoot very well at ground troops?
No thanks..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why would this tank not be able to shoot at ground troops?

ground troops can't shoot very well at airplanes because the planes are flying really fast past them.
This tank shoots at planes and CAN shoot at troops on the ground but for some reason has a really hard time hitting targets that don't move very fast.
I'm confused.
And maybe a little pessimistic.

yukondal wrote:
No interceptor?
Can't shoot very well at ground troops?
No thanks..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why would this tank not be able to shoot at ground troops?

ground troops can't shoot very well at airplanes because the planes are flying really fast past them.
This tank shoots at planes and CAN shoot at troops on the ground but for some reason has a really hard time hitting targets that don't move very fast.
I'm confused.
And maybe a little pessimistic.

Someone had a special moment when they wrote the interceptor rule. Tying being to able to shoot at ground targets normally with shooting things coming out of reserve makes no actual logical sense, and because it is an extremely powerful rule, GW doesn't hand it out much.

FW, however, has no qualms going "You guys can't write a rule properly? Fine, all our AA and multi-purpose vehicles are getting interceptor."

For both the Hydra and the new Stalker, I figure the best way to use them is keep them in reserve, and hope they come out in a favourable turn to shoot one flier before they die. Neither are particularly enviable, and I don't think my Hydra has ever killed a plane.

Can we call it a brain fade? Those really should have been separate rules. As it is now, the whole interceptor rule is horribad.

That being said, I would not sacrifice a HS spot for one of these. Give them out in squadrons and we are talking, but not like this.

As a White Scars player I don't tend to fill my heavy support slots, so I'm interested in giving the Hunter/Stalker a try. Although the lack of interceptor is not great, there are still targets out there, particularly enemy skimmers such as wave serpents.

There's also one other advantage compared to the quad-gun - the tank can move. In every case it's a single weapon so you can hide out of LoA, then move out to hit an enemy target on your turn. Against other ground targets there's no reason not to move the full 12" as you're snap-shooting anyway.

I'm also thinking of adding a HK missile for turns where you do want to hit a ground target.

Are they going to be great tanks? Probably not. But for 70/75 points you might be able to afford to bring one for the instances when it is useful.

It's also interesting that (as far as I can tell) you're able to make both a Hunter and a Stalker from one set. This gives you the choice of either depending on opponent, or even both if you're got a spare rhino chassis hanging about!


I do agree that GW's messed up the flyer rules. In particular, even flyers should not have skyfire by default. For example, a vendetta is by design a ground-attack aircraft - giving it skyfire makes it the best air superiority fighter available - definitely not right.

Against air targets they both have 4 shots, but the stalker is BS4 and a single weapon system which means it can arrive from reserve and fire 4 shots. The hydra has 2 weapon systems which means if it arrives from reserve it only fires 2 shots at full bs and has to snap shoot the 3rd and 4th shot.

The hydra can ignore jink saves, but that doesn't do anything against hell turkeys.

The edge definitely goes to the stalker.

The problem with the stalker is the hunter seems like a better aircraft hunter. Armorbane AP2 seems much more effective against AV12 than AC hits.

They both fail at their designated specialty. They are "air defence tanks" that can not stop
the enemy air force from completing their mission. Lack of Interceptor means that what happens is
that the enemy flyer comes to table and destroys something ( usually the air defense ) and then
you get to shoot back. But by then the damage is already done.

And besides S7 is unreliable in the air defense role. Most flyers with AV are AV12, meaning that you
need 5 to glance and 6 to penetrate. Not very good odds. Plinking enemy flyers out of the sky is a recipe
for defeat. I personally want enemy fliers to DIE now, not next turn or the turn after.

The stalker does get 8 shots in Servo Tracking mode.
I'm looking at the rule here and is says;

C:SM wrote:The Stalker must select two targets, making a full shooting attack at each using the dual targets profile above

The referenced profile says heavy 4, so two targets, 4 shots at each, at Bs2.

I'd say if you're lucky with dice than go for the BS2 double shot but with how I roll I would never use it and just stick with 4 BS4 shots.

Yeah just 4 shots with no ability to squadron up is pretty bad, hence part of the reason I thought it had 8 shots.

@schadenfreude - AP2 and armor bane are indeed way better, but it's only 1 shot and still Str7 right? Also what happens if you have the missile following a target but it zooms off the table? I assume the missile token gets removed?

Question: What about that Missile launcher AA tank vs a Hydra?
I know they work differently but how would they stack?

Someone mentioned using them against skimmers. Have fun against a wave serpent Sorry, but both of these are pretty much crap at what they are supposed to do.

Yeah the jink save would negate any real possibility to kill wave serpents. Which is where the Hydra comes out on top.

Naw wrote:
Someone mentioned using them against skimmers. Have fun against a wave serpent Sorry, but both of these are pretty much crap at what they are supposed to do.

It seems so.
Stalker does "on average" ~1 HP to Wave Serpent. Single target a little more and dual targeting a little less. Now adding a very probable cover save and it does not look so good.
The other vehicle has a bit worse odds of damaging it but if it does the penetration % is much higher. Plus AP2 on damage table.

I guess one or the other is better depending if the shield is up or not.

If the shield is kept up and WS moving the whole time one Stalker will take a whole game to down one Wave Serpent. I would not call it a good solution.

And when with the new Eldar codex do you ever face just one WS. I suppose they balanced the AA against the SM codex itself