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Yes adding FW into the discussion makes MEQ much better in so many ways & there is probably the key to making more viable against the top dawgs. Contemptors are the bees knees. Iron Hands are intriguing, possibly Ironclads with IWND.

Yeah, FW is really hit or miss on whether its allowed. I don't own any FW, because BA kinda got hosed there, too. And $$.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm also a Browns fan. I have decades of practice. And the absolute raping the BA took in 6th is just really hard to get over.

As I am neither American nor show interest in spectator sports your analogy went over my head.

5e was MeQ and Guard all day every day.

6e is and likely will remain Xenos and Chaos* all day every day.

*Daemons more so than CSMs.

It's a fairly long standing flip flop between editions meant to make you look into other armies.

5e was a terrible, terrible time for my Tyranids and an even worse one for the Eldar and Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Yes adding FW into the discussion makes MEQ much better in so many ways & there is probably the key to making more viable against the top dawgs. Contemptors are the bees knees. Iron Hands are intriguing, possibly Ironclads with IWND.

I'm still waiting for the updates to the Space Marine stuff in keeping with the new edition.

SAV vehicle spam with IWND makes me a very happy camper.

The Guard haven't gone anywhere in 6th really. They still have mass firepower.

I guess I'm still kinda bitter over 2nd edition, and don't want to be back in that position.

Martel732 wrote:
The Guard haven't gone anywhere in 6th really. They still have mass firepower.

I guess I'm still kinda bitter over 2nd edition, and don't want to be back in that position.

The guard isn't in the top three anymore like it once was. It may not have gotten worse but it faces stiff competition from the Necrons, Tau, Eldar, and Daemons.

It's still a good book, but it's showing it's age.

Maybe not, but the one IG vs Eldar game I saw was a hell of a lot closer than any game I've had against Eldar. Well, except the one where the Eldar guy didn't bubble wrap properly and I was playing with drop pods.

At least IG aren't paying for T4 they don't get to benefit from against Eldar.

If you look at the hoops the marines have to jump through to field S6 shooting and compare it to how Eldar get out of bed and trip over it. Yeah..........

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe not, but the one IG vs Eldar game I saw was a hell of a lot closer than any game I've had against Eldar. Well, except the one where the Eldar guy didn't bubble wrap properly and I was playing with drop pods.

Generally, Guard vs Tau devolves into the most boring gunline fight you've ever seen. There's just no life or joy in the match up.

Guard vs Necrons is a question of whether the guard can stop the Necrons from getting into the 24'-12' miracle mile, and if they can't stop them from getting there in force it usually gets ugly.

Guard vs Daemons is again, stopping the Daemons from getting into charge range, which can be quite difficult given the random dice shenanigans they can pull off.

Guard vs Eldar is proving to be a PITA because the Guard doesn't have many ways to bring down Wraith Knights with any speed as they pop all our vehicles while D-scythe wraithguards obliterate hordes.

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe not, but the one IG vs Eldar game I saw was a hell of a lot closer than any game I've had against Eldar. Well, except the one where the Eldar guy didn't bubble wrap properly and I was playing with drop pods.

Generally, Guard vs Tau devolves into the most boring gunline fight you've ever seen. There's just no life or joy in the match up.

Guard vs Necrons is a question of whether the guard can stop the Necrons from getting into the 24'-12' miracle mile, and if they can't stop them from getting there in force it usually gets ugly.

Guard vs Daemons is again, stopping the Daemons from getting into charge range, which can be quite difficult given the random dice shenanigans they can pull off.

Guard vs Eldar is proving to be a PITA because the Guard doesn't have many ways to bring down Wraith Knights with any speed as they pop all our vehicles while D-scythe wraithguards obliterate hordes.

I've heard huge amounts of cheap lascannons might help with that. Heck, I've even saw Wave Serpents die that game because the IG had enough autocannons to bring them down. It took a *lot* of shots. That's why I laugh about marine players and their 4X MLs. Might as well as pop guns.

Again, if the Hunter and Stalker were Rhino upgrades, I'd feel like the marines got something substantial.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe not, but the one IG vs Eldar game I saw was a hell of a lot closer than any game I've had against Eldar. Well, except the one where the Eldar guy didn't bubble wrap properly and I was playing with drop pods.

Generally, Guard vs Tau devolves into the most boring gunline fight you've ever seen. There's just no life or joy in the match up.

Guard vs Necrons is a question of whether the guard can stop the Necrons from getting into the 24'-12' miracle mile, and if they can't stop them from getting there in force it usually gets ugly.

Guard vs Daemons is again, stopping the Daemons from getting into charge range, which can be quite difficult given the random dice shenanigans they can pull off.

Guard vs Eldar is proving to be a PITA because the Guard doesn't have many ways to bring down Wraith Knights with any speed as they pop all our vehicles while D-scythe wraithguards obliterate hordes.

I've heard huge amounts of cheap lascannons might help with that. Heck, I've even saw Wave Serpents die that game because the IG had enough autocannons to bring them down. It took a *lot* of shots. That's why I laugh about marine players and their 4X MLs. Might as well as pop guns.

My wife has a "Sweep and stay" list where Wraith knights stand there being invincible killing any heavy armor I have, then Wave serpents come in, killing all my medium armor before dropping off D-scythe wraithguard to wipe away infantry while Axe and shield wraithguard come in to plop themselves into objectives and give a hearty "come at me bro." And flying spaghetti monster help you if the warlocks accompanying them buffs their armor.

Aircraft are dealt with via Nightwings.

It certainly works best in our large games.

Oh I'm sure. I didn't see any wraithguard in the battle I was watching.

I'm not sure what the hell my marines would do against the same list other than just die faster.

Did the TFC change?

 doktor_g wrote:
Did the TFC change?

It's even better now.

It has barrage now. For that extra bit of "Feth you" to people hiding behind aegis defense lines.

I just had a conversation with a close friend who is a veteran tourney player and he agrees with you, Martel, regarding MLs... To some extent.

In the old Dex he suggests that the ML was good for anti horde, but with the new Dex, PC is just sooooo much better for the minor increase in PTS.

LC on the other hand are also better in this Dex, also due to the points and tank busting capability.

As for Centurions... He feels that they have a place vs some armies and believes that they are a unit that should be taken according to what CT you are using and your play style.

Great in an IH list, but not spectacular in anything else really.

He says that they are pricey, but useable and... This is the kicker... If you must take them in Devastators, take the ML. You get to shoot twice and it's a much higher quality of shot than the Hurricane Bolters.

He suggests taking no more than a three man squad and that you should either go all LC/ML or GC/GA and ML.

As for AssCents... They are not good at all.

One thing he does not believe though is that this codex is boned vs Eldar or Tau and that CSM is actually winnable now. He plays (and BA) and knows what he's talking about there.

Tau and Eldar seem to be this armies biggest Achilles heels, but it is a match up that CAN be won.

TFC still can't hit air units then?

 doktor_g wrote:
TFC still can't hit air units then?

No, but they are going to devastate anyone camping directional cover and snipe out characters from a unit.

And it's master crafted w Vulkan!... That can't be right.

 doktor_g wrote:
And it's master crafted w Vulkan!... That can't be right.

The TFC? No. Vulkan makes all Melta weapons (aside from bombs) in his detachment Master Crafted -- and that is also only if he is your warlord.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
So, just two small things to add from a non-SM player.

Firstly. Centurions appear to be MoN obliterators. They cost about the same for basically the same stats. Their two weapons isn't as good as the pick-any weapon, but do get a couple of options that obliterators don't. In any case, they're roughly comparable.

Oblits are good, but not straight up awesome in my book. Can centurions deepstrike? Because if they can't then they're definitely worse. In any case, the idea of deploying obliterators on the table and then walking them forward and hoping they survive is absurd. I can't imagine it would be any different for centurions.

Also, as for the mention of a BT T4 horde, I agree that it's nothing special. Not only because of bolter banner DA, but also because of CSM. CSM can get 120 T4 models in just over 1500 points, but all of them have power armor, which, unless they changed that in the new codex, I was under the impression that BT didn't. Plus, CSM can take marks and close combat weapons + BP + bolters.

I'd like to see how 120 BT bodies do against 120 BP+CCW MoK CSM for roughly the same price.

I can't speak much to the rest of it, as my knowledge of SM has suddenly become obsolete. What it does appear like, though, is that the codex is relatively on-balance with DA and CSM. Just because it doesn't have the same power level as "difficulty level: sandbox" taudar doesn't mean that it's a bad codex, though. It means that it's a good codex, and that the tau codex is bad.

Having the new SM codex compete with tau for which army requires the least effort to use would make the game overall a worse one, and I'm glad that they appear to have resisted the temptation.

Sorry, not good enough. I don't pour in time and effort and $$ to be humiliated by Tau/Eldars through *not fault of my own*. The Tau codex is the one that is "good", because your judgments about "difficulty: sandbox" doesn't help the W-L column at the end of the day. Compared to a company like Blizzard, GW is really pathetic.

You sound really angry, Martel. If GW are so pathetic stop wasting time commenting on their games, sell your stuff and move on. It's only a game.

I don't think the 24" range on Centurions is the end of the world. A 250 point squad with a 24" range is nothing new. A 5 man GK Termie squad is 225 with the psycannon and no other upgrades and you still see plenty of those around.

The range is even less of a problem with BAO style terrain where a big LOS blocking piece of terrain is often in the middle of the board.

It's really inconvenient for an army to dance outside a 4 foot diameter bubble with an entire army. If 250 points is going to dictate enemy movement and deployment it might be worth while. it makes sense to dance around with a riptide or wraithknight, but not an entire army for a single 250 point unit.

It's also a bad trade to keep 3 riptides cowering in a deployment zone corridor because there is a 250 point squad in the middle of the board.

That being said spamming grav gun centurions sounds like a bad idea. I think a single unit will give good returns, but the returns will diminish sharply as they are spammed.

Take 6 Land Speeder Storms, outflank them, and shoot riptides with cerberus launcher to make them BS1.

Then kill the markerlights with the rest of your army, and now the riptides are useless.

Problem solved?

Polecat wrote:
Take 6 Land Speeder Storms, outflank them, and shoot riptides with cerberus launcher to make them BS1.

Then kill the markerlights with the rest of your army, and now the riptides are useless.

Problem solved?

I'm trying to figure out the best secondary weapon for the LSS. The heavy flamer gets around the scout's low BS, but is short-ranged. Assault Cannon gives you the best flexibility to go after troops, walkers or MCs (non-walker vehicles are immune to blind), but it's also pretty expensive and relies on BS3 to hit...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, thats why you shouldn't run Centurions with only Grav Weapons. I ceinly don't plan on spamming Grav weapons. I'm looking at twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers. Now that's fire power.

Right now I'm with Grey Templar here.

The way I look at Cents are 'appropriately costed dreadnoughts'. They are extremely good anti-tank role in this capacity.

I plan on fielding 36 bikes with two grav guns per squad. This comes out to be just under 1k points. That leaves me some points to fill. Due to the footprint of 36" bikes, anything I bring has to have good range.

Cents fill this role well. They are cheaper than dreads or preads for the same firepower. If my opponent's wave serpents are focused on shooting them, they will get steamrolled by the bikes shoving krak gernades down tailpipes.

Edit : Don't forget if you made them yellow, they are getting tank hunter. When you add in tank hunter those MLs and LCs get deadly fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I think you are adding a lot into my statement. It's just a matter of choosing to spend time and $$ on this or play a game where the devs give a $%^^& like Starcraft

Then go play starcraft. It seems a no-brainer to me.

Everyone's planning on loads of grav-guns on bikes - where are they going to come from? For the moment there's one and a combi in the tac squad box, and one and two combis in the sternguard box. I'm guessing they'll be pretty prized bits being so rare or expensive on eBay.

Here's hoping GW release a grav-gun sprue/pack...

 Hedgehog wrote:

Polecat wrote:
Take 6 Land Speeder Storms, outflank them, and shoot riptides with cerberus launcher to make them BS1.

Then kill the markerlights with the rest of your army, and now the riptides are useless.

Problem solved?

I'm trying to figure out the best secondary weapon for the LSS. The heavy flamer gets around the scout's low BS, but is short-ranged. Assault Cannon gives you the best flexibility to go after troops, walkers or MCs (non-walker vehicles are immune to blind), but it's also pretty expensive and relies on BS3 to hit...

HF is nice and cheap, Multi-melta is only worth it with Vulkan, and Assault Cannon is flexible, but expensive for a BS3 model.

 Hedgehog wrote:
Everyone's planning on loads of grav-guns on bikes - where are they going to come from? For the moment there's one and a combi in the tac squad box, and one and two combis in the sternguard box. I'm guessing they'll be pretty prized bits being so rare or expensive on eBay.

Here's hoping GW release a grav-gun sprue/pack...

I just ordered 16 from Anvil.

Here is a thread where some different options are described.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550534.page

GW was foolish and did not offer to sell them at bits off the bat. As such, I'm going to just buy from a different source


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In regards to the OP -- It appears like you wanted to make a bitch thread instead of a discussion of the good features. I don't know if that was your intention, but that is what the end result appeared to be. I will address your initial idea of the thread.

The Good
Cheaper units. Lowering the cost of units by 20%+ is a big difference. Imagine playing a game of chess, and instead of bringing 16 pieces to the board, your now able to bring 20. What kind of an impact would that have on your game?

Great USRs. Hit and run army wide? Tank hunter for all devastators? Those abilities are pretty bloody incredible! This is because the units in 40k increase exponentially in effectiveness when you start to combine special rules.

Good ally options. Tau and C:SM being battle bro's opens up the door for some very strong combos. A buff commander in a squad of dev centurians, for example. A squad of IG to provide cheap objective camping.

The stalker/hunter. The most common comment is 'they don't have interceptor'. Just reserve them. If you go after the flyer, you can just come on the board and shoot down the flyer. At the cost, these vehicles are a steal. STR 7, AP2 armorbane is a kick in the jimmies for most flyers.

LotD have some function now. They are still steep at 25 points a pop, but they can give some excellent utility to an army. Bringing one squad of these can have a lot of value. You can use them to tie up a wraithknight for the game, or you can use them to go after backfield scorers.

Honor guard are well priced for 2+ models with power weapons. If you go back and read up my article on the Rule of Resilience you will see how a model with a 2+ save is twice as durable to AP4+ weapons as a 3+ armor save unit. What do Tau and Eldar bring a lot of? Ap4+ weapons. This means when compared to a MEQ body, they have very good RPP values.

Sternguard are cheaper. This is nice as they are one of the best units in the dex for flexability. The drawback to this is now they can't combi-out like they used to as easily. 10 points per combi-weapon is a spicy meatball to swallow.

Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport. This is one of the most under-valued units in the game in terms of objective grabbing. Being able to get your speeder without sacrificing a storm raven slot is awesome.

Some of the old units just got better. Thunderfire cannons. They were already one of the best units in the codex...

Decent flyers. Look at the flyers that have come out in the past few codex's. Who actually uses the DA flyers? How many Tau flyers do you see? At NOVA I saw a total of 2 crimson hunters -- and those were not at top tables. However, storm talons and storm ravens are not bad flyers.


The Bad
GW has completely failed on the price of dreads and terminators. They over-estimate the value of those units. A terminator is just not worth 40 points. It should be priced at 35. Base dreads should be priced at 65. Those prices are 5+ years old and need to be updated.

Ultramarines are all about an all-comers army. In order to properly utilize their abilities, they need to be diverse. Diverse armies don't work in today's competitive environment.

There is still some dead weight in the codex. Chaplins. Razorbacks. Vanguard Vets. Dreadnoughts. Cent Assault Stquads. Scout Bikes.

Some of the new units just vastly overshadow the old ones. Why the hell would I take a AC/LC predator when I can take 2 hunters? The new tanks overshadow the old ones in every way. The only exception is the whirlwind -- which is a great tank for the cost. If you doubt that, ask HulkSmash.

Like many codex's, there are some FoC slots that are in high contention. There are multiple heavy support options that are all gold. Conversely, the elite section is pretty lackluster with only sternguard and LotD being worthwhile.


The Ugly
The $$$ prices behind these new models is sick. GW models are waaaaaay overpriced.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Some of the new units just vastly overshadow the old ones. Why the hell would I take a AC/LC predator when I can take 2 hunters?

They've got very different roles, the predator will be vastly better against the majority of targets, the hunters will only work against flyers and skimmers.

Ah, excellent point.

Here is what I'm noticing:

White Scars' chapter tactics seem to fit really well with what's available in the codex.

Bike lists are looking strong. 3 shot AP2 weapons that typically wound on 2+ or 3+ with 18" range is pretty darn good. If the meta shifts, there's still plasmaguns. Also, they got cheaper, and with White Scars Chapter Tactics, they all have a 4+ jink save, 3+ if turbo boosted. That's pretty survivable in the current good AP meta.

Typhoon Land Speeders will also do well with White Scars' Chapter Tactics. Yes, they're only av10, but it's a 75 point model with a 4+ jink save, a Typhoon ML, and a heavy bolter. That's good for light AV or anti-infantry, very mobile, and even with 1 less HP than normal it's still decently surviable thanks to the 4+ jink save. Just make sure you move first or hide them in cover to start.

Honor Guard look absolutely insane the moment you can get them into combat. Throw a Chapter Banner in there and you have a 10-man Honor Guard squad for 285 points that has a 2+ save, power weapons, and 5 attacks on the charge. That's very killy, and very survivable so long as you don't attack anything with a 2+ save. Since most AP2 weapons are unweildly, you can charge anyway and most likely wipe the squad if they aren't terminators. 50 attacks on the charge is nuts. It's also important that now you can make a bike list with a chapter master so you don't waste that HQ slot, and now chapter masters actually have a better statline (A4, W4) so you're still getting something for the points cost.

Overall it's looking fairly good. When I first looked at it, I was worrying about the lack of long-range firepower until I saw the points reduction of the Land Speeder and its interaction with White Scars tactics. I also want to point out that, if it's needed, Scout Bike Squads can also be taken as troops and given a locator beacon for anything that wants to deep strike in. The rule simply says "Bike squads of 5 or more" and Scout Bikes can adhere to that.

Do land speeders get the boosted Jink save? I thought it was only bikes.

 Lotus wrote:

Overall it's looking fairly good. When I first looked at it, I was worrying about the lack of long-range firepower until I saw the points reduction of the Land Speeder and its interaction with White Scars tactics..

Land Speeders don't benefit from the White Scars chapter tactics. Only Bikes gain the bonuses from Born in the Saddle.