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Crap, you're right. I read that wrong. Well there goes that idea. There's a huge difference between a 5+ and a 4+.

The new codex isn't bad, but I have trouble seeing how it will be a Tau/Eldar/Daemons.

There are cool options, stuff is cheaper, but at the end of the day, they are still MEQ in a very anti-MEQ game.

After looking through, I think that they will be a very viable ally to Tau. If going pure SM:

-Tigirus or Kahn (depending on whether or not you want to go bike heavy)
-Bikes or Scouts in Land Speeder Storms (I actually think a Scouting Storm rush could be pretty fun)
-TFC
-Maybe a squad of Cents or two

Of course, you still have issues with anti-flyer (specifically FMCs), anti-Serpent spam (which I see no real answer for), and the whole problem of Infiltrating Kroot walls stopping your Scout shenanigans.

 JGrand wrote:


Of course, you still have issues with anti-flyer (specifically FMCs), anti-Serpent spam (which I see no real answer for), and the whole problem of Infiltrating Kroot walls stopping your Scout shenanigans.

Depending on FAQ (tournament or official) decisions, Grav Bikers may turn out to be the answer to Serpents. Vehicles only get cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits, a grav weapon causes neither. You can get 9 grav guns (one combi) in a bike squad for 90 odd points. That same squad is also solid against MCs, and with Scout has a huge threat range.

The Kroot wall doesn't shut down the Scout Shenanigans, the same builds that will have Army Wide Scout will also have Army Wide Hit and Run. They can function like a silly, not super powerful version of the Seer Council.

I have no idea if this will turn out to be a top tier book....but there are some good tools in it. If nothing else, they'll be great allies for Tau, lol.

anonymou5 wrote:

 JGrand wrote:


Of course, you still have issues with anti-flyer (specifically FMCs), anti-Serpent spam (which I see no real answer for), and the whole problem of Infiltrating Kroot walls stopping your Scout shenanigans.

Depending on FAQ (tournament or official) decisions, Grav Bikers may turn out to be the answer to Serpents. Vehicles only get cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits, a grav weapon causes neither. You can get 9 grav guns (one combi) in a bike squad for 90 odd points. That same squad is also solid against MCs, and with Scout has a huge threat range.

The Kroot wall doesn't shut down the Scout Shenanigans, the same builds that will have Army Wide Scout will also have Army Wide Hit and Run. They can function like a silly, not super powerful version of the Seer Council.

I have no idea if this will turn out to be a top tier book....but there are some good tools in it. If nothing else, they'll be great allies for Tau, lol.

You can't get 9 grav guns in a single squad. Only 2, and then a combi-grav for the sergeant.

 Lotus wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

 JGrand wrote:


Of course, you still have issues with anti-flyer (specifically FMCs), anti-Serpent spam (which I see no real answer for), and the whole problem of Infiltrating Kroot walls stopping your Scout shenanigans.

Depending on FAQ (tournament or official) decisions, Grav Bikers may turn out to be the answer to Serpents. Vehicles only get cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits, a grav weapon causes neither. You can get 9 grav guns (one combi) in a bike squad for 90 odd points. That same squad is also solid against MCs, and with Scout has a huge threat range.

The Kroot wall doesn't shut down the Scout Shenanigans, the same builds that will have Army Wide Scout will also have Army Wide Hit and Run. They can function like a silly, not super powerful version of the Seer Council.

I have no idea if this will turn out to be a top tier book....but there are some good tools in it. If nothing else, they'll be great allies for Tau, lol.

You can't get 9 grav guns in a single squad. Only 2, and then a combi-grav for the sergeant.

Maybe he meant 9 shots?

A few first impressions about the codex:

Centurions - DevCents are decent, but only one build seems to bring something valuable to the table. Las/ML Cents have reliable, concentrated, semi-mobile AT firepower. They're a little overpriced, but make up for it by bringing the most firepower per HS choice in a crowded slot. They also have the range to fire from behind an ADL or similar cover, which makes up for the lack of an invuln and somewhat justifies their price. HB/Bolter Cents seem like decent value, particularly with IF Tactics, but SM armies have never lacked anti-infantry firepower and don't really need another platform for it. Grav Cents are very good if they get to shoot an appropriate target, but are highly situational and probably not worth it in a TAC list.

AssCents are exactly that, asinine. Given their speed, you need a LR to transport them, which means they directly compete/compare with Assault Termies. TH/SS are tougher against anything worth fighting, and have more attacks/damage as a squad against anything but AV14. Twin-linked meltaguns plus S9 AP2 make the AssCents the best unit in the codex at close-up vehicular destruction, but this role is redundant and not worth 500+ points in one unit. Against hordes, AssCents are tougher, and twin-linked flamers might make up for their lower damage compared to LC Termies. If anyone ever took LC Termies to begin with. Again, why do you need a 500+ point unit to kill hordes in CC when you can do this cheaper and easier from range? Overall, they aren't a "total crap, never take this" kind of unit, just redundant and narrow in application. They won't have a place in any competitive C:SM army.

TFC - I'm actually kind of mixed on this. Barrage obviously helped vs. aegis lines, but I think the TFC will be much more variable in its accuracy now - since barrage weapons never subtract BS, and all four blasts are dependent on where the first one lands, a bad initial scatter could completely ruin your volley, while a good scatter will probably improve damage. Is that loss of reliability worth the ability to snipe models and use its S6 blast on aegis lines? I'm not sure.

Stalker/Hunter - Both are solid choices and cheap. I think the Hunter is better against most flyers, but the Stalker is a better TAC choice.

From an Ultramarines perspective:

- Tigurius is easily the best SC in the Codex. He is the strongest and most reliable psyker in the book by far, ML3 re-rolling both power choices and failed Psychic tests. In addition, he's the only psyker with access to Prescience, which helps with one of the biggest weaknesses of Vanilla SM. He has 3W now, which helps with survivability, and he has the most useful Warlord trait on the table. His reserve manipulation lets you tailor a list to hit when you want it to. He is a relatively cheap character with enormous force multiplier potential, as long as you keep him away from the enemy.

- Calgar is 20 points more expensive with the armor, but much better. He's still never going to see competitive play because of his cost, but has several boosts. His pass/fail Morale ability is now more valuable because Combat Tactics is gone. His Warlord ability lets you make the best of a bad set of traits. His CT boost lets you get two turns of better shooting. Finally, his ability to unlock 3 squads of HG is more than just fluff now that HG are competitively priced. A list designed to take advantage of these HG might actually justify his points cost. For some reason, Titanic Might doesn't let you re-roll wounds anymore, but it's not a major loss.

- Sicarius is cheaper, but there really aren't any reasons beyond fluff to take him over Tigurius.

 Roboute wrote:

TFC - I'm actually kind of mixed on this. Barrage obviously helped vs. aegis lines, but I think the TFC will be much more variable in its accuracy now - since barrage weapons never subtract BS, and all four blasts are dependent on where the first one lands, a bad initial scatter could completely ruin your volley, while a good scatter will probably improve damage. Is that loss of reliability worth the ability to snipe models and use its S6 blast on aegis lines? I'm not sure.

You can still subtract BS if you maintain LoS. Barrage just now gives us an option to hide them if we want. There's no reason that we can't use them like we already were -- we can now deploy them in a more flexible manner.

IF you decide to hide them, then yes, you sacrifice some of you accuracy, but I don't think it's going to really make a major difference. I suppose I'll need to get some games in before I decide on that.

One other thing it adds is pinning. This gets overlooked because a lot of armies essentially ignore it, but it is added flavor.

Barrage weapons always hit the top floor of muti-story structures. Those Eldar rangers can just hide in one of the middle floors now.

The only reason to take Calgar's terminator armor is if you are going to teleport him in, or want the beacon. He's back in artificer armor and has an iron halo, so already has a 2+ 4++ save.

 Lotus wrote:
I also want to point out that, if it's needed, Scout Bike Squads can also be taken as troops and given a locator beacon for anything that wants to deep strike in. The rule simply says "Bike squads of 5 or more" and Scout Bikes can adhere to that.

I don't think this applies, much as I'd like it to. 'Bike squads' are a specific unit - scout bikes are not a 'bike squad'.

Puscifer wrote:
I just had a conversation with a close friend who is a veteran tourney player and he agrees with you, Martel, regarding MLs... To some extent.

In the old Dex he suggests that the ML was good for anti horde, but with the new Dex, PC is just sooooo much better for the minor increase in PTS.

LC on the other hand are also better in this Dex, also due to the points and tank busting capability.

As for Centurions... He feels that they have a place vs some armies and believes that they are a unit that should be taken according to what CT you are using and your play style.

Great in an IH list, but not spectacular in anything else really.

He says that they are pricey, but useable and... This is the kicker... If you must take them in Devastators, take the ML. You get to shoot twice and it's a much higher quality of shot than the Hurricane Bolters.

He suggests taking no more than a three man squad and that you should either go all LC/ML or GC/GA and ML.

As for AssCents... They are not good at all.

One thing he does not believe though is that this codex is boned vs Eldar or Tau and that CSM is actually winnable now. He plays (and BA) and knows what he's talking about there.

Tau and Eldar seem to be this armies biggest Achilles heels, but it is a match up that CAN be won.

As an experienced tournament player I would disagree with your friend. I can't see an instance where the Centurions will be good against top tier lists. Just look at how much terminators suck, then take away the invul save. Nuff said. Also where are you getting 2 shots from the ML? It's not even twin linked. As someone who plays chaos, marines, IG, nids, & Tau I literally laugh at Cents.

Puscifer wrote:
I just had a conversation with a close friend who is a veteran tourney player and he agrees with you, Martel, regarding MLs... To some extent.

In the old Dex he suggests that the ML was good for anti horde, but with the new Dex, PC is just sooooo much better for the minor increase in PTS.

LC on the other hand are also better in this Dex, also due to the points and tank busting capability.

As for Centurions... He feels that they have a place vs some armies and believes that they are a unit that should be taken according to what CT you are using and your play style.

Great in an IH list, but not spectacular in anything else really.

He says that they are pricey, but useable and... This is the kicker... If you must take them in Devastators, take the ML. You get to shoot twice and it's a much higher quality of shot than the Hurricane Bolters.

He suggests taking no more than a three man squad and that you should either go all LC/ML or GC/GA and ML.

As for AssCents... They are not good at all.

One thing he does not believe though is that this codex is boned vs Eldar or Tau and that CSM is actually winnable now. He plays (and BA) and knows what he's talking about there.

Tau and Eldar seem to be this armies biggest Achilles heels, but it is a match up that CAN be won.

I'll believe it when I see it. I must still disagree that the ML ever worked as anti-horde. The frag missile has sucked since 2nd edition. I'd like to think that playing BA since 2nd edition might give me some idea of what I'm talking about as well. Tank hunter totally changes the math for the ML, but that doesn't make the basic, standard ML work a damn.

Maybe the grav cannon thing will turn out to be the bees knees. I don't know. But the choice of hurricane bolter or ML as one of this things only two weapon choices really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It still looks to me that LC/ML centurions are just a really expensive way to play the HP stripping game with ROF 1 weapons. Cents are still wounded by Eldar weapons on 3's or 2's. I see them being spammed off the board very quickly.

No offense, but I want to know specifically how this guy thinks this codex is even going trouble the Eldar/Tau/Demon power block.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I don't think the 24" range on Centurions is the end of the world. A 250 point squad with a 24" range is nothing new. A 5 man GK Termie squad is 225 with the psycannon and no other upgrades and you still see plenty of those around.

5 man GK termies squads suck right now.

Who are you guus playing against these days? 2 squads of firewarriors will out range & out shoot these guys. 250 pts for a unit that move a max of 6" per turn & is weaker to plasma than terminators. Tau & Eldar laugh at these guys. Think about it, if you lose 4 wounds their combat effectiveness is shot. Not only that they are 1 use only, either v tanks/heavy or v swarms. The oblits are so much better than these.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Well, thats why you shouldn't run Centurions with only Grav Weapons. I ceinly don't plan on spamming Grav weapons. I'm looking at twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers. Now that's fire power.

NickTheButcher wrote:You can still subtract BS if you maintain LoS. Barrage just now gives us an option to hide them if we want. There's no reason that we can't use them like we already were -- we can now deploy them in a more flexible manner.

IF you decide to hide them, then yes, you sacrifice some of you accuracy, but I don't think it's going to really make a major difference. I suppose I'll need to get some games in before I decide on that.

One other thing it adds is pinning. This gets overlooked because a lot of armies essentially ignore it, but it is added flavor.

Read the BRB section on Barrage weapons again. "When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6." All barrage weapons can choose to fire directly as normal blast weapons (which I forgot, and assuages my earlier concerns), but if they do fire indirectly, their BS is reduced regardless of LoS. Regardless, the ability to choose is great and simply adds options for them.

Nevelon wrote:The only reason to take Calgar's terminator armor is if you are going to teleport him in, or want the beacon. He's back in artificer armor and has an iron halo, so already has a 2+ 4++ save.

Or if you think the Terminator model is way more badass and couldn't fathom taking anything different.

Regarding MLs vs. other options, in the previous codex there were a few reasons to take MLs on infantry. In Dev squads, lascannons were ridiculously overpriced. In Tac Squads, you got the ML for free, and it was better than nothing for a camping combat squad. Now LC Devs are much more affordable, and Tacs have to pay for a ML, which also went up in price compared to HB and PC. There isn't really any more reason to take ML on your Marines. They still work on Typhoons (or CML if you use Tac Termies).

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"In regards to the OP -- It appears like you wanted to make a bitch thread instead of a discussion of the good features. I don't know if that was your intention, but that is what the end result appeared to be. I will address your initial idea of the thread."

I don't see anything here that will let marines stand up on their own in a competitive environment against Tau, Eldar, & maybe Daemons too. I could care less what you think my intentions were. If you can see some way to make them work so be it.

"The Good
Cheaper units. Lowering the cost of units by 20%+ is a big difference. Imagine playing a game of chess, and instead of bringing 16 pieces to the board, your now able to bring 20. What kind of an impact would that have on your game?"

I play DA so this is all standard prices for me, go ask a DA player how their dex stands up to the Tau, Eldar, & Daemons.

"Great USRs. Hit and run army wide? Tank hunter for all devastators? Those abilities are pretty bloody incredible! This is because the units in 40k increase exponentially in effectiveness when you start to combine special rules."

Again at the loss of being able to choose to fail a ld check & auto rally. Devastator squads don't have the durability to survive on the battle field unless you give them ablative bolter wounds in which case they become too expensive. Maybe if SM could take autocannons this would be better. Hit & run army wide is useable only in combat & unless you are playing Daemons, you are probably involved in maybe 1-2 combats in a game. Not that great. I think the big problem is that they are still trying to make marines good at close combat & shooting, with the problem there being that even with scout or whatever most marines are too slow or not durable enough to make it into combat.

"Good ally options. Tau and C:SM being battle bro's opens up the door for some very strong combos. A buff commander in a squad of dev centurians, for example. A squad of IG to provide cheap objective camping."

This remains true. Tau with SM allies is and always was very good. Not quite as good now that you have to roll randomly for Gate & there is no more Null Zone. But still pretty good.

"The stalker/hunter. The most common comment is 'they don't have interceptor'. Just reserve them. If you go after the flyer, you can just come on the board and shoot down the flyer. At the cost, these vehicles are a steal. STR 7, AP2 armorbane is a kick in the jimmies for most flyers."

What you are not seeing is that Tau & Eldar are dominating the meta without using fliers. These will be good against flying circus lists maybe, but not a game changer. The missle is great except it's 1 shot & basically no good against FMCs. I'm not sure why GW is obsessed with making all SM skyfire options S7. But S7 sucks against a heldrake with a 5++ & IWND, so the missile is the better option there. Again these are too specialized IMO.

"LotD have some function now. They are still steep at 25 points a pop, but they can give some excellent utility to an army. Bringing one squad of these can have a lot of value. You can use them to tie up a wraithknight for the game, or you can use them to go after backfield scorers."

They certainly have a function. How good they are remains to be seen.

"Honor guard are well priced for 2+ models with power weapons. If you go back and read up my article on the Rule of Resilience you will see how a model with a 2+ save is twice as durable to AP4+ weapons as a 3+ armor save unit. What do Tau and Eldar bring a lot of? Ap4+ weapons. This means when compared to a MEQ body, they have very good RPP values."

Honor Guard are good & basically what terminators should be. Now if they could just move faster or deep strike they would be great. They are good though & it's unfortunate that you have to pay a chapter master tax to take 1 unit of them.

"Sternguard are cheaper. This is nice as they are one of the best units in the dex for flexability. The drawback to this is now they can't combi-out like they used to as easily. 10 points per combi-weapon is a spicy meatball to swallow."

Agreed, more will be better but not as good at punching hvy armour or 2+ save units. This was the 1 unit that was pretty good against Wave Serpents, but not so much any more.


"Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport. This is one of the most under-valued units in the game in terms of objective grabbing. Being able to get your speeder without sacrificing a storm raven slot is awesome."

Agreed I like 5 scouts in a storm for cheap effective & fast troops.

"Some of the old units just got better. Thunderfire cannons. They were already one of the best units in the codex..."

+

"Decent flyers. Look at the flyers that have come out in the past few codex's. Who actually uses the DA flyers? How many Tau flyers do you see? At NOVA I saw a total of 2 crimson hunters -- and those were not at top tables. However, storm talons and storm ravens are not bad flyers."

+


"The Bad
GW has completely failed on the price of dreads and terminators. They over-estimate the value of those units. A terminator is just not worth 40 points. It should be priced at 35. Base dreads should be priced at 65. Those prices are 5+ years old and need to be updated. "

Yep, I'd add to that list Predators, LR, Chaplains, Vanguard vets, razorbacks, & maybe Chapter masters (Centurions!).

"Ultramarines are all about an all-comers army. In order to properly utilize their abilities, they need to be diverse. Diverse armies don't work in today's competitive environment."

Yep, maybe if they could pick 1 tactic every turn & do an oblit style rotation to limit it.

"There is still some dead weight in the codex. Chaplins. Razorbacks. Vanguard Vets. Dreadnoughts. Cent Assault Stquads. Scout Bikes. "

Yep

"Some of the new units just vastly overshadow the old ones. Why the hell would I take a AC/LC predator when I can take 2 hunters? The new tanks overshadow the old ones in every way. The only exception is the whirlwind -- which is a great tank for the cost. If you doubt that, ask HulkSmash. "

I never leave my whirlwind at home with my RW. The predator is definitely the worst "main battle tank" in the game. Maybe if it could move & shoot effectively.

"Like many codex's, there are some FoC slots that are in high contention. There are multiple heavy support options that are all gold. Conversely, the elite section is pretty lackluster with only sternguard and LotD being worthwhile."

yep


"The Ugly
The $$$ prices behind these new models is sick. GW models are waaaaaay overpriced.

 Lotus wrote:
Here is what I'm noticing:

White Scars' chapter tactics seem to fit really well with what's available in the codex.

Bike lists are looking strong. 3 shot AP2 weapons that typically wound on 2+ or 3+ with 18" range is pretty darn good. If the meta shifts, there's still plasmaguns. Also, they got cheaper, and with White Scars Chapter Tactics, they all have a 4+ jink save, 3+ if turbo boosted. That's pretty survivable in the current good AP meta.

Typhoon Land Speeders will also do well with White Scars' Chapter Tactics. Yes, they're only av10, but it's a 75 point model with a 4+ jink save, a Typhoon ML, and a heavy bolter. That's good for light AV or anti-infantry, very mobile, and even with 1 less HP than normal it's still decently surviable thanks to the 4+ jink save. Just make sure you move first or hide them in cover to start.

Honor Guard look absolutely insane the moment you can get them into combat. Throw a Chapter Banner in there and you have a 10-man Honor Guard squad for 285 points that has a 2+ save, power weapons, and 5 attacks on the charge. That's very killy, and very survivable so long as you don't attack anything with a 2+ save. Since most AP2 weapons are unweildly, you can charge anyway and most likely wipe the squad if they aren't terminators. 50 attacks on the charge is nuts. It's also important that now you can make a bike list with a chapter master so you don't waste that HQ slot, and now chapter masters actually have a better statline (A4, W4) so you're still getting something for the points cost.

Overall it's looking fairly good. When I first looked at it, I was worrying about the lack of long-range firepower until I saw the points reduction of the Land Speeder and its interaction with White Scars tactics. I also want to point out that, if it's needed, Scout Bike Squads can also be taken as troops and given a locator beacon for anything that wants to deep strike in. The rule simply says "Bike squads of 5 or more" and Scout Bikes can adhere to that.

Good summation. I was thinking the same thing. Didn't catch the scout bike thing. Cluster mines will be a PITA for some armies.

 Roboute wrote:

- Calgar is 20 points more expensive with the armor, but much better. He's still never going to see competitive play because of his cost, but has several boosts. His pass/fail Morale ability is now more valuable because Combat Tactics is gone. His Warlord ability lets you make the best of a bad set of traits. His CT boost lets you get two turns of better shooting. Finally, his ability to unlock 3 squads of HG is more than just fluff now that HG are competitively priced. A list designed to take advantage of these HG might actually justify his points cost. For some reason, Titanic Might doesn't let you re-roll wounds anymore, but it's not a major loss.

I agree with everything in your post. Just don't forget with Calgar you can still roll on the BRB warlord tables & re-roll duplicates. This is the only thing that makes is as good as Azraels ability. Also the ability to bring 3 honor guard squads, now reasonably priced & arguably better than termies, is good. But as you said getting into CC is very difficult now. What Calgar really needs at his cost is non-unwieldy PF, which I don't think is OP when you compare what you get for the same price with Abbadon, Swarmlord, Draigo, or any similarly priced DP or GD.

Just to throw a couple things in here.

To the question of how to counter Tau/Eldar Grav weapons really bring a lot to the table combined with price reductions. If you need mobile Centurions look no further than Tigirius. Labmouse42 can run the numbers but it looks like he gets close to a 75% chance of getting any one power. He can also get things like Forewarning or endurance for extra durability. Its nearing Deathstar prices but with cheap bikes, scouts, crusaders, etc you can afford to spend on toys in this codex unlike last one.

Secondly Don't forget allies. O'vesastar or Seercouncil got you down? Space Wolves are BB, get JOWW and Rune Weapons. Also handy vs. Daemons. Anti-Drake can be accomplished with Tau allies. Lots of options here and I suspect there will be a bit of a lag for Space Marines to impact the meta in a lasting way because of the size of the codex...

 Nevelon wrote:
The only reason to take Calgar's terminator armor is if you are going to teleport him in, or want the beacon. He's back in artificer armor and has an iron halo, so already has a 2+ 4++ save.

I believe it also lets you move and fire his Orbital Bombardment.

 Fulcrum wrote:
I agree with everything in your post. Just don't forget with Calgar you can still roll on the book warlord tables & re-roll duplicates. This is the only thing that makes is as good as Azraels ability. Also the ability to bring 3 honor guard squads, now reasonably priced & arguably better than termies, is good. But as you said getting into CC is very difficult now. What Calgar really needs at his cost is non-unwieldy PF, which I don't think is OP when you compare what you get for the same price with Abbadon, Swarmlord, Draigo, or any similarly priced DP or GD.

Thanks, I didn't notice that bit about the book warlord traits. A few of those abilities, such as making him scoring, could be good. I would actually argue that Calgar is fine as-is - he's a strong beatstick, but he trades truly top-tier CC for more powerful force multipliers than Abbadon or the Swarmlord. This makes him less worthwhile in low points games, but he scales up much better as point values increase.

Glocknall wrote:
Just to throw a couple things in here.

To the question of how to counter Tau/Eldar Grav weapons really bring a lot to the table combined with price reductions. If you need mobile Centurions look no further than Tigirius. Labmouse42 can run the numbers but it looks like he gets close to a 75% chance of getting any one power. He can also get things like Forewarning or endurance for extra durability. Its nearing Deathstar prices but with cheap bikes, scouts, crusaders, etc you can afford to spend on toys in this codex unlike last one.

Secondly Don't forget allies. O'vesastar or Seercouncil got you down? Space Wolves are BB, get JOWW and Rune Weapons. Also handy vs. Daemons. Anti-Drake can be accomplished with Tau allies. Lots of options here and I suspect there will be a bit of a lag for Space Marines to impact the meta in a lasting way because of the size of the codex...

The problem with Grav weapons is needing that 6 to do ANYTHING against WS, meaning to be really effective you need the grav amp wich of course is only available on Dev Cents. Don't get me wrong, I have hopes for my biker army, but it's just hope not anticipation. Tiggy +3x Dev Cents w/grav is 415 base. Not very durable & a big target to get bogged down in CC. I love Tiggy & think there are better ways to use him without exposing him so much. What I don't understand about SM ever since 2nd ed is why they have so many limitations on who can take what as far as weapons & wargear. Why don't they "open up the playbook" so to speak. There are so many pieces of equipment that only 1 model in the army can ever take (signum, locator beacon, grav amp), or just allow termies, characters, dev squads, tac squads access to any special weapon. Termies with grav would be interesting, or assault marines. If devs could take 4 specials instead of only heavies. If HQs could take melta/grav/plas not in the single shot only variety. Just give more options. For an army thats supposed to be flexible, they are very inflexible. Also what was guilliman(sp?) thinking when he decided it was a good tactic to only allow tac squads 1 hvy & 1 special, think how much better it would be if it was 2 of either in any combo. Also where are my combat knives?!?! Did the GH steal them all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roboute wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
I agree with everything in your post. Just don't forget with Calgar you can still roll on the book warlord tables & re-roll duplicates. This is the only thing that makes is as good as Azraels ability. Also the ability to bring 3 honor guard squads, now reasonably priced & arguably better than termies, is good. But as you said getting into CC is very difficult now. What Calgar really needs at his cost is non-unwieldy PF, which I don't think is OP when you compare what you get for the same price with Abbadon, Swarmlord, Draigo, or any similarly priced DP or GD.

Thanks, I didn't notice that bit about the book warlord traits. A few of those abilities, such as making him scoring, could be good. I would actually argue that Calgar is fine as-is - he's a strong beatstick, but he trades truly top-tier CC for more powerful force multipliers than Abbadon or the Swarmlord. This makes him less worthwhile in low points games, but he scales up much better as point values increase.

I would say the 3 characters I named have as much or more synergy/force multiplication/utility than Calgar + they strike a Ini.

I think another thing missing from this codex is any way to really change the FOC other than bike squads, which every other codex has. I understand they want to save ASM as troops for BA, but still something would be nice. I would pay a lot more for Pedro if he made Sternguard troops, not just scoring.

 Fulcrum wrote:
Also what was guilliman(sp?) thinking when he decided it was a good tactic to only allow tac squads 1 hvy & 1 special, think how much better it would be if it was 2 of either in any combo

If you want two heavies/10 guys, just take two 5-man squads.

 Fulcrum wrote:
The problem with Grav weapons is needing that 6 to do ANYTHING against WS, meaning to be really effective you need the grav amp wich of course is only available on Dev Cents. Don't get me wrong, I have hopes for my biker army, but it's just hope not anticipation. Tiggy +3x Dev Cents w/grav is 415 base. Not very durable & a big target to get bogged down in CC. I love Tiggy & think there are better ways to use him without exposing him so much. What I don't understand about SM ever since 2nd ed is why they have so many limitations on who can take what as far as weapons & wargear. Why don't they "open up the playbook" so to speak. There are so many pieces of equipment that only 1 model in the army can ever take (signum, locator beacon, grav amp), or just allow termies, characters, dev squads, tac squads access to any special weapon. Termies with grav would be interesting, or assault marines. If devs could take 4 specials instead of only heavies. If HQs could take melta/grav/plas not in the single shot only variety. Just give more options. For an army thats supposed to be flexible, they are very inflexible. Also what was guilliman(sp?) thinking when he decided it was a good tactic to only allow tac squads 1 hvy & 1 special, think how much better it would be if it was 2 of either in any combo. Also where are my combat knives?!?! Did the GH steal them all?

You make some good points. The firepower on the Grav Cents is staggering once you consider the Grav Cannons put out 15 shots rerolling pens. I think GW might of overlooked not twin-linking the grav cannons as they are clearly twin-linked on the model but whatever.. If you DS Tiggy remember your still working with 24" range so you don't have to expose him as much as you usually do when DSing. Also another solve for WS is Legion of the Damned with MM, MG, Combi Melta loadout. They ignore cover and have a reliable deep strike to get rear armor or exposed WS.

I agree with you whole heartedly about the opening of the playbook as you put it. I'd like to see more robust loadouts and options for certain.

Something to consider today about the meta is the importance of long range firepower. So much work is done in the 24"-36" range band these days that if you can deliver hard hitting firepower from beyond that range you are at a nice advantage. With T-Fires, Dev Cents, Whirlwinds and the extra FOC by allying with self you can really cripple a lot of armies these days in early rounds. Leafblower isn't quite back yet but Space Marines can reach out and touch things.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Also what was guilliman(sp?) thinking when he decided it was a good tactic to only allow tac squads 1 hvy & 1 special, think how much better it would be if it was 2 of either in any combo

If you want two heavies/10 guys, just take two 5-man squads.

Sure if you could put them in the same transport that would be great, also I'm more interested in the special weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"You make some good points. The firepower on the Grav Cents is staggering once you consider the Grav Cannons put out 15 shots rerolling pens. I think GW might of overlooked not twin-linking the grav cannons as they are clearly twin-linked on the model but whatever.. If you DS Tiggy remember your still working with 24" range so you don't have to expose him as much as you usually do when DSing. Also another solve for WS is Legion of the Damned with MM, MG, Combi Melta loadout. They ignore cover and have a reliable deep strike to get rear armor or exposed WS.

I agree with you whole heartedly about the opening of the playbook as you put it. I'd like to see more robust loadouts and options for certain.

Something to consider today about the meta is the importance of long range firepower. So much work is done in the 24"-36" range band these days that if you can deliver hard hitting firepower from beyond that range you are at a nice advantage. With T-Fires, Dev Cents, Whirlwinds and the extra FOC by allying with self you can really cripple a lot of armies these days in early rounds. Leafblower isn't quite back yet but Space Marines can reach out and touch things."

I just don't think the grav cents will ever make their points back before being killed. Sure maybe you can DS in & kill 1 thing before you die, possibly taking your warlord & best character (tiggy), with you. Without Tiggy though they will just get out ranged & out maneuvered.

With your legion of the damned load out you will have to hit & pen/glance with all 3 shots to kill a WS. Then die to whatever is inside or around it if you do. As we all know it is very easy for any Eldar player worth his salt to deny rear armour by deploying on the board edge or up against LOS terrain. As for your long range firepower point, just look at Tau, they have 36" threat with their basic gun. WS have an effective threat range of 72".

Martel732 wrote:
I'm also a Browns fan. I have decades of practice. And the absolute raping the BA took in 6th is just really hard to get over.

I'm not professing to be the greatest player in the world, or a tactical genius or even going to justify my positions with pseudo-intellectual positions, i must have played BA 50+ times in 5th edition...... What I will say is that if you think BLOOD ANGELS got RAPED then you obviously think the Following is all entirely reasonable.

1. Fast Tanks .......
2. Deep Striking Landraiders.....
3. Cheap Assault Marines as troops in cheap transports.
4. Snippy-Snippy Dreadnoughts.
5. Access to a Flyer only GK do?
6. Priests for FNP for almost every unit..
7. Tanks with Assault Cannons, or Flamestorm Cannons.
8. Razorback Spam.
9. Sanguinary Guard.
10. Red Thirst
11. Descent of Angels.
12. Meph - T6 I7 Bloodlance?
13. Magna-Grappler
14. Frag Cannon?

BA have had it better than good for a long time....Time for some Austerity - For perspective if you want to compare notes on Butt-hurt I play Iron Hands a LEGION!! That has been forgotten about since it became a Chapter mate, so your whinging about BA falls upon my Cold Deaf Ears as it did on Brother Ignatius Numen.

If that's what you think, maybe you missed the part in 5th where the GK immediately stole the BAs thunder. The BA were only truly broken in 3rd. In 5th, they got leaf blowered by the IG just like everyone else. The myth of how good the BA really were in 5th is alive and well I see.

You list off a lot things in the BA codex, yes. But the BA overpay for almost all of that stuff, leaving too few models on the table. It's not the mechanics of BA tricks so much as what they pay for them.

The BA were an expensive list in 5th, which brought its own hazards, but in 6th, their model count is just way too poor.

Martel732 wrote:
If that's what you think, maybe you missed the part in 5th where the GK immediately stole the BAs thunder. The BA were only truly broken in 3rd. In 5th, they got leaf blowered by the IG just like everyone else. The myth of how good the BA really were in 5th is alive and well I see.

You list off a lot things in the BA codex, yes. But the BA overpay for almost all of that stuff, leaving too few models on the table. It's not the mechanics of BA tricks so much as what they pay for them.

The BA were an expensive list in 5th, which brought its own hazards, but in 6th, their model count is just way too poor.

I have to agree with Martel with what he's said about BA.

I might not see eye to eye with a lot of his statements, but he's been on the money with his criticism of the BA from 5th to 6th.

Is BA the only army you play?

*YES*

Even allies are a bit cost prohibitive given GW's prices, but at this point, I'm not sure why I'd build around meqs.

If I roll 2 sixes with grav weapons on a vehicle does it take away 3 hull points?

First one immobilize and take a hull point, the second one immobilize takes a second hull point because of the immobilizing an already immobilize vehicle, and the same shot still causes a hull point due to the grav rule thus 3 hull points.

Is that correct?

Martel732 wrote:
*YES*

Even allies are a bit cost prohibitive given GW's prices, but at this point, I'm not sure why I'd build around meqs.

Makes sense.

Btw... tried making a TAC list using the new book. It's actually quite difficult when you have three or four very different codexes as the top ones.

I found that some units are great against some but useless against others.

For example...

Grav Cents are really good vs CSM, pretty good vs Tau and Eldar (depending on the Eldar build), but they are absolutely turd against Daemons.

It seems to be that this books units are very rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock. You might have to choose units that are good against the majority, but lose against one of the main tier lists.

Totally agree with you on the leaving a bad taste in your mouth with the Hurricane vs ML upgrade. If you are hunting Terminators and other 2+ save guys with Grav Cents, the ML is useless.