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I have always maintained that krak missiles should be AP 2, Lascannons AP 1, and plasma AP 3.

"Grav Cents are really good vs CSM, pretty good vs Tau and Eldar (depending on the Eldar build), but they are absolutely turd against Daemons.

It seems to be that this books units are very rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock. You might have to choose units that are good against the majority, but lose against one of the main tier lists.

Totally agree with you on the leaving a bad taste in your mouth with the Hurricane vs ML upgrade. If you are hunting Terminators and other 2+ save guys with Grav Cents, the ML is useless."



How are you making Grav Cents "pretty good" vs. Tau & Eldar. Other than the previously mentioned Tigurius deepstrike(no guarantee), they are too slow & will never get in range before they die.

When you have to attach special character to make a weapon system functional, that means its bad.

Martel732 wrote:
When you have to attach special character to make a weapon system functional, that means its bad.

No arguments here. We'll call it the Tiggy Tax

 Fulcrum wrote:


I just don't think the grav cents will ever make their points back before being killed. Sure maybe you can DS in & kill 1 thing before you die, possibly taking your warlord & best character (tiggy), with you. Without Tiggy though they will just get out ranged & out maneuvered.

With your legion of the damned load out you will have to hit & pen/glance with all 3 shots to kill a WS. Then die to whatever is inside or around it if you do. As we all know it is very easy for any Eldar player worth his salt to deny rear armour by deploying on the board edge or up against LOS terrain. As for your long range firepower point, just look at Tau, they have 36" threat with their basic gun. WS have an effective threat range of 72".

You're oversimplifying things here. While I'd love to see the cost of Grav Cents go down a tad, maybe 50 points base, they have more delivery options than you're giving them credit for. . Raider is an over costed option but gives best protection in game. Many times you will not need movement, your enemies death star will come to you. Add a Tau buff commander w/ Iridium, twin link and ignores cover.

As for the Wave Serpent you seem to think all they do is hang at board edge and fire shields. Use Tiggy to delay your reserves and wait till they fire the shields, they will....on turn one. Also remember that the WS is carrying enemy troops. They will need to move off board edge to grab objectives. The little secret about the WS is stay out of laser lock range.

Models with bulky, very bulky, or extremely bulky do not get scout or infiltrate/outflank, reread the CT.

Glocknall wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:


I just don't think the grav cents will ever make their points back before being killed. Sure maybe you can DS in & kill 1 thing before you die, possibly taking your warlord & best character (tiggy), with you. Without Tiggy though they will just get out ranged & out maneuvered.

With your legion of the damned load out you will have to hit & pen/glance with all 3 shots to kill a WS. Then die to whatever is inside or around it if you do. As we all know it is very easy for any Eldar player worth his salt to deny rear armour by deploying on the board edge or up against LOS terrain. As for your long range firepower point, just look at Tau, they have 36" threat with their basic gun. WS have an effective threat range of 72".

You're oversimplifying things here. While I'd love to see the cost of Grav Cents go down a tad, maybe 50 points base, they have more delivery options than you're giving them credit for. . Raider is an over costed option but gives best protection in game. Many times you will not need movement, your enemies death star will come to you. Add a Tau buff commander w/ Iridium, twin link and ignores cover.

As for the Wave Serpent you seem to think all they do is hang at board edge and fire shields. Use Tiggy to delay your reserves and wait till they fire the shields, they will....on turn one. Also remember that the WS is carrying enemy troops. They will need to move off board edge to grab objectives. The little secret about the WS is stay out of laser lock range.

So we need a Tau ally to make marine centurions good?

Well for a short window you can take that FW Librarian that exchanges chapter tactics for infiltrate. I'm sure it's going to get changed, but I think that's actually a pretty solid delivery option for Centurions.

*milage varies on meta

Martel732 wrote:

Glocknall wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:


I just don't think the grav cents will ever make their points back before being killed. Sure maybe you can DS in & kill 1 thing before you die, possibly taking your warlord & best character (tiggy), with you. Without Tiggy though they will just get out ranged & out maneuvered.

With your legion of the damned load out you will have to hit & pen/glance with all 3 shots to kill a WS. Then die to whatever is inside or around it if you do. As we all know it is very easy for any Eldar player worth his salt to deny rear armour by deploying on the board edge or up against LOS terrain. As for your long range firepower point, just look at Tau, they have 36" threat with their basic gun. WS have an effective threat range of 72".

You're oversimplifying things here. While I'd love to see the cost of Grav Cents go down a tad, maybe 50 points base, they have more delivery options than you're giving them credit for. . Raider is an over costed option but gives best protection in game. Many times you will not need movement, your enemies death star will come to you. Add a Tau buff commander w/ Iridium, twin link and ignores cover.

As for the Wave Serpent you seem to think all they do is hang at board edge and fire shields. Use Tiggy to delay your reserves and wait till they fire the shields, they will....on turn one. Also remember that the WS is carrying enemy troops. They will need to move off board edge to grab objectives. The little secret about the WS is stay out of laser lock range.

So we need a Tau ally to make marine centurions good?

Absolutely not.

As I said before, the key with the TAC marine army seems to be that no matter which units you take, they will not be good against everything.

GravCents Murder CSM (I used them against CSM last night and they worked brilliantly - two dead units of PM by T3 and a dead unit of Obliterators T4), they are ok vs Tau, ok vs Eldar depending on the type of Eldar army (they are stellar vs Wraith heavy lists), but they are incredibly bad vs Daemons.

Paper/Rock/Scissors/Lizard/Spock seems to be the norm with this book.

Yeah, maybe you are right. But I still hate the bimodal hurricane bolter/ML thing.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, maybe you are right. But I still hate the bimodal hurricane bolter/ML thing.

It was ok for squeezing through the kills on PM, but totally useless on my build vs the Obliterators.

I popped a Rhino on turn one, but again, you are right.

Not a great weapon.

I want to test the GravCents against other armies, but it seems that aside from MEQ and TEQ armies, they are just "OK" vs everything else.

This has a double edged effect. Being Ok means it is useable vs all, but they don't shine vs everything.

Grav Cents:

Vs MEQ and TEQ - Gravs are great here.
Vs Tau - Grav is ok vs the FW, good vs Suits and fantastic vs Riptide.
Vs Eldar - Great vs Wraiths, ok vs everything else.
Vs Daemons - Useless.
Vs Orks - Useless.
Vs Guard - Useless.
Vs Tyranids - Useless vs infantry, fantastic vs the medium beasts and MC.
Vs Necrons - It's a mixed bag here. Great vs some, average vs other units.

I really like the concept of the grav, but plasma is almost too good as "one stop shopping" in 6th edition.

People are pimping the lascannon/ML cents, but I just see three TL lascannons there.

The Riptide does not need to get anywhere close to the Cents, and it won't. Wraithknights will just use their heavy d cannons to blast apart your cents, and LR carrying them first if necessary. Maybe the LR can take the beating. This might make Eldar start using fire dragons again to stop "box full of centurions with grav". Not that fire dragons are bad.

Martel732 wrote:
I really like the concept of the grav, but plasma is almost too good as "one stop shopping" in 6th edition.

People are pimping the lascannon/ML cents, but I just see three TL lascannons there.

The Riptide does not need to get anywhere close to the Cents, and it won't. Wraithknights will just use their heavy d cannons to blast apart your cents, and LR carrying them first if necessary. Maybe the LR can take the beating. This might make Eldar start using fire dragons again to stop "box full of centurions with grav". Not that fire dragons are bad.

Never seen the WK take a Heavy D Cannon, only the Suncannon, but I see where you're coming from.

I don't think taking a LR is a good idea though. Too many points in one basket.

Smart Eldar players realize the value of ranged ST 10. ST 10 is power, and now with these grav guys running around, I expect to see it more. They one shot the cents, by the way. Fun, fun.

The suncannon is actually a weapon my BA find kinda meh. I'm more afraid of the thing in HTH. But heavy d cannons can blow up predators, etc.

I dont' know if the LR is good or not. If you don't have one, you will never get slow and purposeful models within grav range of riptides and wraithknights against good players.

Martel732 wrote:
Smart Eldar players realize the value of ranged ST 10. ST 10 is power, and now with these grav guys running around, I expect to see it more. They one shot the cents, by the way. Fun, fun.

The suncannon is actually a weapon my BA find kinda meh. I'm more afraid of the thing in HTH. But heavy d cannons can blow up predators, etc.

I dont' know if the LR is good or not. If you don't have one, you will never get slow and purposeful models within grav range of riptides and wraithknights against good players.

Is the Heavy D a blast?

I ran two LRC in my DW lists to great effect and I like Raiders a lot, I just don't know if I want to add another 250 points to the unit.

Then again though, I could DS in my Terminators if I chose to take them in my Vanilla army, so that frees up my LR to take the Cents, so really, I'm only paying for the Cents and not extra to get them there as I've repurposed the LR.

One useful tactic for advancing Centurions into range is to take a character with artificer or Terminator armor and the relic Storm Shield and have him stand in front. Not only will he be immune to Instant Death from strength 10 attacks, but his 3++ should work to deflect plasma/melta/grav attacks quite effectively.

 Kingsley wrote:
One useful tactic for advancing Centurions into range is to take a character with artificer or Terminator armor and the relic Storm Shield and have him stand in front. Not only will he be immune to Instant Death from strength 10 attacks, but his 3++ should work to deflect plasma/melta/grav attacks quite effectively.

Whilst I agree this tactic would work quite well, it's cost calls into question its effectiveness. Even in a Squad of 3 Centurions, that more than 400pts shoved into a single unit which is incredibly slow, albeit durable.

I personally don't feel that durability on the part of the Centurions is nearly as big an issue is as their terrible foot speed.

Iranna.

A question from a non C:SM-player... I have just finished painting an army that I have dreamt about since the early days of "Space Marine", the old 1991 version 6mm game. I finally have a full "Wraith" army (Iyanden supplement) with a single Spirit Seer as the only living Eldar of her dead Craftworld and pretty pleased about it. (Just to point out, I only run a single Wraith Knight and have two Wraith Lords so not so much of a power gamer, just wanted a nice themed army) Of course, going up against Dark Eldar with all those poison-ignore-T6-weapons would always be tricky, Kroot could be a problem and rending would hurt... but now with the marine Grav Weapons on the horizon, have I just completed something I can put on my shelf next to my 2500p Sisters of Battle? Or I am reading too much into the new rules and debate going on here on Dakka Dakka? Is Grav Weapons only something that will be used sometimes in some lists? Because I am seriously afraid that faced against an opponent with numerous Grav guns would be like facing a DE Venom spam, just smile, shake hands, concede and get a cup of coffee.

I am not trying to be negative (although I might come across as such) or interrupt this thread with an "Eldar" question but I should would love to hear from those who actually play C:SM since I will undoubtedly be facing some marines in the near future.

Regards: Agusto

Agusto wrote:
A question from a non C:SM-player... I have just finished painting an army that I have dreamt about since the early days of "Space Marine", the old 1991 version 6mm game. I finally have a full "Wraith" army (Iyanden supplement) with a single Spirit Seer as the only living Eldar of her dead Craftworld and pretty pleased about it. (Just to point out, I only run a single Wraith Knight and have two Wraith Lords so not so much of a power gamer, just wanted a nice themed army) Of course, going up against Dark Eldar with all those poison-ignore-T6-weapons would always be tricky, Kroot could be a problem and rending would hurt... but now with the marine Grav Weapons on the horizon, have I just completed something I can put on my shelf next to my 2500p Sisters of Battle? Or I am reading too much into the new rules and debate going on here on Dakka Dakka? Is Grav Weapons only something that will be used sometimes in some lists? Because I am seriously afraid that faced against an opponent with numerous Grav guns would be like facing a DE Venom spam, just smile, shake hands, concede and get a cup of coffee.

I am not trying to be negative (although I might come across as such) or interrupt this thread with an "Eldar" question but I should would love to hear from those who actually play C:SM since I will undoubtedly be facing some marines in the near future.

Regards: Agusto

I wouldn't worry yet, you may be ok, but again it's going to depend on the Meta.

A Marine army shouldn't be taking all Grav as it then severely handicaps them vs Horde and anything worse than 4+ Armour.

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Smart Eldar players realize the value of ranged ST 10. ST 10 is power, and now with these grav guys running around, I expect to see it more. They one shot the cents, by the way. Fun, fun.

The suncannon is actually a weapon my BA find kinda meh. I'm more afraid of the thing in HTH. But heavy d cannons can blow up predators, etc.

I dont' know if the LR is good or not. If you don't have one, you will never get slow and purposeful models within grav range of riptides and wraithknights against good players.

Is the Heavy D a blast?

No, but the D-cannons do provide something the Eldar don't have. Which is long ranged anti-tank.

Eldar can already kill infantry well enough with Shurican so the Suncannon is kinda redundant actually. And if you MUST destroy a unit of terminators you still have Fire Dragons, who are better against vehicles to boot.

The Heavy D-cannon can kill even a Landraider from across the table. While being on an insanely durable platform that only needs to toe into a forest to get a cover save.

If you're worried about grav weapons, just know that they are more expensive than melta, about equivalent to plasma unless they're standing still to shoot, and only come one per squad of tactical marines.

Sternguard can take 2 grav guns and combi-gravs (this is what I'd use sternguard for anymore).

The only thing with gravcannons are centurions and you have the perfect counter to them. Str 10 ID's them.

Waveserpents are a great place to put wraith guard if you're worried about getting shot down. Plus, the flamer variety is always effective at taking down pretty much anything except Iron Armed Tyranid MCs.

Don't get your hopes down, be proud of your army and make it work!

Thanks for the quick replies... and seriously, am I still on Dakka Dakka? Nice, friendly and encouraging feedback? What has the world come to?

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about this C:SM codex at all. Equip your Wraithknight with the D-cannons and carry on.

Now the Orks and Nids may shake things up a bit.

The Double Heavy WraithCannons on the Wraithknight is really the best loadout. The Suncannon is pretty redundant with the rest of the Eldar list. I recently built two Wriathknights, a Suncannon/Shield/Scatter Laser and a Double Heavy Wriathcannon one. I have the two new Heavy Wriathcannons sitting on the desk to be painted as a replacement for the Suncannon. Ranged S10 is great, a melee brute is great, etc.

I don't forsee Wraithknights having much to fear from Grav Centurions.

I don't thing GravCannon/GravAmp will be the preferred loadout for Centurions, I expect that will be TLLC/ML as a mobile AT/AntiMC unit especially with Nids on the horizon and more 3+ MCs. Compare a unit of TLLC/ML Cents, 260 with splitfire vs 240 for a Wraithknight. The Centurions will pump out much more firepower, albeit as a slightly lower quality, at a longer range sacrificing T8, JumpMC mobility, for a 2+, and greater ease of cover. Hell, unlike the Wriathknight Dev Cents will have at least a passable option for an oncoming horde(ML Blasts). Doubling the points cost for a semieffective delivery method seems foolish and doubt it will achieve much success.

I expect we may see a Buffmander joining TLLC/ML Cents as an effective option offering a 2+, multiple wounds, and two ID LOS drones.

I see bikes and sternguard as the truly effective deployment options for grav weapons. LotD with a CombiGrav/Plasma, PlasmaGun, and Plasma Cannon could be effective as well for DSing and evaporating something tasty, but that serves an entirely different purpose than a true Grav unit as it has a reliable DS and SnP.

Looking more and more at the Centurions, the more I'm thinking they are not worth it.

While I've given my tactical opinions on which armies Grav Cents are useful against, the 24" range hurts them a lot, as does the fact that they are useless against the Horde Armies.

I don't like the LC/ML variant at all. Durable? Yes, but not worth the points.

The HB Variant is also not great.

TAC lists are very difficult with this book. You can't prep for the top three - CD, Tau and Eldar. You can be good against one or two of those lists, but ultimately you will lose against another.

CSM lists though, the Marines now have a chance, but it's still slim and you MUST take the Grav Cents.

I'm four games into testing so far and while that's not a great number to come to a conclusion, Grav Cents have won all four games for me cs MEQ and TEQ.

I think the marines can bury CSM with triple or quadruple Stormraven builds too. No grav cents necessary. Use grav bikers on the plague marines and watch them QQ. There's a thing: Ironhands Stormraven lists. Stormravens can be almost as slick as helldrakes. No, even with IWND, the Stormraven is still overpriced.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the marines can bury CSM with triple or quadruple Stormraven builds too. No grav cents necessary. Use grav bikers on the plague marines and watch them QQ. There's a thing: Ironhands Stormraven lists. Stormravens can be almost as slick as helldrakes. No, even with IWND, the Stormraven is still overpriced.

I don't plan on ever fielding the Raven... Waaaaay too expensive.

IH Talons though... Oh wait... They can't survive a hit.

what I like about this codex the most right now is that my army dropped almost 150 pts!

I know Tigurious can take divination, but regular space marine librarians can't. In this instance, I really prefer Dark Angel librarians.

If you use a jump pack libby like I do, telepathy is no joke.