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Remember they can also get Combi-Gravs on their Sgt.

They will excel as tarpits for MCs, tank or light infantry hunting. I will be running a squad for sure.

I think LotD will do very well as Elite/AT/MC/Cover Hunters Hunters, not midfield holders.

I'd look at 5 man squads with either Melta, CombiMelta, Multimelta, or Plasma Gun, CombiPlasma, Plasma Cannon.

You get Accurate DS, Ignores Cover, and Slow and Purposeful.

And you can swap out the Combi for a CombiGrav to your likeing, best done with the Plasma Squad.


Albative wounds on that nasty Broadside Squad with Tanking Iridium Armor Buffmaster. No problem, drop, kill ~2 Broadsides.

MC got you down? Drop and Plasma or Plasma/Grav.

Problems ignoring the cover of that ADL? DS behind it and plasma those (Insert Unit Name Here).

Lonstrike's Hammerhead got you down? Melta dead.

Waveserpent are hard to kill. Melta Drop the Rear armor. No Shield for you.

Lots of potential with the ability to Reroll you DS.

 Fulcrum wrote:
My buddy out here runs iyanden with SS, 3 wraith guard squads in WS(1 w blades), 3x WW w/scatter&lance(I think ?), 2 nightspinners, & a wraith knight. He hasn't lost a game (35-0 ish) & he plays different opponents all the time. So ya enjoy getting up close & personal with grav against that army. Pop the WS with either grav or cc & take some dweapons to the face.

Tell him to go to big events.
Hes probably the big fish in a small pond. I was that way for years. I would run huge winning streaks.
Then I started going to the larger, national circuit. Tell your friend that his game will get a lot better by attending those events, but hes likely not enjoy the same winning streak.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
My buddy out here runs iyanden with SS, 3 wraith guard squads in WS(1 w blades), 3x WW w/scatter&lance(I think ?), 2 nightspinners, & a wraith knight. He hasn't lost a game (35-0 ish) & he plays different opponents all the time. So ya enjoy getting up close & personal with grav against that army. Pop the WS with either grav or cc & take some dweapons to the face.

Tell him to go to big events.
Hes probably the big fish in a small pond. I was that way for years. I would run huge winning streaks.
Then I started going to the larger, national circuit. Tell your friend that his game will get a lot better by attending those events, but hes likely not enjoy the same winning streak.

Emphasized for truth.

 Kingsley wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
That's why he didn't list Tacticals it's terminators or vehicles we want!

And what is your opinion on Centurions?
Because I think that:
Melee => Rather have 5 Assault Termies with TH/SS
Dev/las => Rather have Devastators
Dev/grav => Rather have a CCS on bikes with Grav.

I'm not sure on Assault Centurions. But las/missile Devastator Centurions look very strong, especially with Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics, and I'm pretty sure Devastator Centurions with grav are going to prove quite effective as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fulcrum wrote:
My buddy out here runs iyanden with SS, 3 wraith guard squads in WS(1 w blades), 3x WW w/scatter&lance(I think ?), 2 nightspinners, & a wraith knight. He hasn't lost a game (35-0 ish) & he plays different opponents all the time. So ya enjoy getting up close & personal with grav against that army. Pop the WS with either grav or cc & take some dweapons to the face.

I don't know what your buddy's tactics are like, but to be honest I consider that a highly favorable matchup for Marines even using the 5th edition Codex.

 Fulcrum wrote:
Kingsley man I don't know your meta or opponents but I disagree with everything you said except for the TFC being good. How can you think 3 S9 AP2 shots on a basically immobile platform is good for 140pts? Or 1 for 100?

How can you not think 3 S9 AP2 shots are good for 140 points? That's on par with a Vendetta (commonly considered one of the most underpriced units in the game), and on a more resilient chassis.

Man you are just full of jokes today. I don't feel the need to counter any of your points because they're so ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
My buddy out here runs iyanden with SS, 3 wraith guard squads in WS(1 w blades), 3x WW w/scatter&lance(I think ?), 2 nightspinners, & a wraith knight. He hasn't lost a game (35-0 ish) & he plays different opponents all the time. So ya enjoy getting up close & personal with grav against that army. Pop the WS with either grav or cc & take some dweapons to the face.

Tell him to go to big events.
Hes probably the big fish in a small pond. I was that way for years. I would run huge winning streaks.
Then I started going to the larger, national circuit. Tell your friend that his game will get a lot better by attending those events, but hes likely not enjoy the same winning streak.

So you think you would beat that with marines? We have a very competitive environment here of a couple hundred players who rotate through. With 60-70%, maybe a little more, being a either tau or eldar in some combination. I'd be interested in what you would run against it with the new codex, even tailoring your list. I'm the only person who has come close to beating it a couple times in games that were called early with an Azrael/IG blob ally list which I think had a chance to win had the game played out. But that is a highly optimized competitive list w/ guard allies that's not really a possibility with this new dex. As far as tactics he generally hops around at optimal range for him & eliminates high threat targets. Against a drop pod list he will deploy w his ass on the board edge, then turbo boost across the board after the drop if necessary. Only disembarking when absolutely necessary. Tau probably have the best possibility to get him due to ignoring cover & weight of fire w missilesides, possibly a triple drake list w/oblits if they can get to him to vector strike w multiple drakes on the same turn.

My friend is running IF and he tried LC/ML Cents for the first time.

The things they do to vehicles is just scary.

T1... Two dead Rhino. The only armour on the board.
T2... Heldrake - Dead thanks to the twin linked LC.
T3... Chaos Lord on Bike - failed his inv saves after his bike squad being massacred by Grav Command Squad.
T4... Second Heldrake - TLLC again.

The Chaos guy conceded on T4.

So they have a place... just not in every army.

The Chaos guy also said, if they had been regular Devastators, he would've burned them, but he had no worthwhile targets as everything either had a 2+ save or was in a vehicle.

So I've never used a Skyshield landing pad -- and I'm considering getting it for a couple of different tactics.

1. Using them as a Centurion Platform, likely with LC setup. May try Grav Cannons, just to see what happens.
2. Firing Platform for Devastators. My main problem with Devs were the random games I have against Helldrakes -- however on the Landing pad they would get a 4+ re-rollable invuln to help against the turkey. With that, it could be a good AT platform.

Anyone else use the Landing pad and like it?

 Fulcrum wrote:
So you think you would beat that with marines? We have a very competitive environment here of a couple hundred players who rotate through.

Where do you play where there are a few hundred players rotating through?!?
Seriously, I would love to visit.

In answer to your question, more playstesting/mathammering is required before a solid competitive build can be determined. As has always been the case after a new codex is released it takes a few weeks to determine the right builds.

It's so similar to Dark Angels though. I can't really see how it will have a more competitive build than dark angels unless we're talking some sort of flying circus army.

We've had the Dark Angels out awhile now. Well, maybe I answered my own question. Storm talons and storm ravens for everybody?

Pedro Kantor
2 X sternguard or Assault terminators

2 x Tactical squads

3 Stormtalons

3 stormravens

Maybe one unit of scouts in the speeder transport or a droppod dread or something

The end.

 scuddman wrote:
It's so similar to Dark Angels though. I can't really see how it will have a more competitive build than dark angels unless we're talking some sort of flying circus army.

* Thunderfire cannons
* Tigurius
* Flyers that work
* Grav Guns
* Special rules that help instead of hurt (Hit and Run > Stubborn)
* Cheaper units (bikes)
* Centenarians
* Chapter masters that kick ass

 labmouse42 wrote:

 scuddman wrote:
It's so similar to Dark Angels though. I can't really see how it will have a more competitive build than dark angels unless we're talking some sort of flying circus army.

* Thunderfire cannons
* Tigurius
* Flyers that work
* Grav Guns
* Special rules that help instead of hurt (Hit and Run > Stubborn)
* Cheaper units (bikes)
* Centenarians
* Chapter masters that kick ass

You forgot one thing.... KHAAAAAAAAN

His only weakness is his 20th century way of thinking.

Seriously though, I agree. The Space Marine book has access to a lot more tools than the DA book does. It's hard to tell exactly how good it is, but it's at least much stronger than Dark Angels. Which is sad for DA players, but not surprising.

To the other guy, saying something like "my friend has never lost a game, and he says this book is weak." is hardly a convincing argument. It mostly just means your friend needs to step up to a higher level meta. Everyone loses.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
So you think you would beat that with marines? We have a very competitive environment here of a couple hundred players who rotate through.

Where do you play where there are a few hundred players rotating through?!?
Seriously, I would love to visit.

I'm curious, too. There aren't "a couple hundred" regular gamers rotating through where I play in north metro Atlanta, an area with a population of over 5 million people. Including the single GW store, there are only about a half dozen stores in the area that even have gaming space.

Kangodo wrote:I agree on that last stuff.
Where are the Grav-cannons on vehicles?
Where are those options for terminators and stuff?

centuryslayer wrote:Yes that I can agree on as well. I think they're supposed to be quite rare relics, but still...

The cynical part of me thinks that GW did not include the option for grav cannons on units that they did not sell with the option. So barring re-cuts on a lot of kits, only the new guys get them. Plasma cannons are also considered old and rare, but show up in a number of places. I don't think they need to be in every tactical squad, but devastators should have the option. Sternguard at the very least, as they get the pick of ranged weapons in the chapter armory. And I would love to see one on a dreadnought, who are walking relics in their own right.

Fulcrum is right and Martel732 is spot on.

The new SM codex is a pile of manure in that it is not the slightest bit competitive against the power builds tau and eldar use.
It´s just a fun codex for varied casual gaming, that´s it.

Just wondering as a Xeno player, did the new C:SM fix the problems that most SM players were complaining about and put the C:SM up to a standard that can compete with 6th edition codexes? or is it a bit too early to tell since everyone is still complaining about silly Centurions and whining on how their "unique" chapter rules got changed around?

LotD are good now?

 Pyriel- wrote:
The new SM codex is a pile of manure

Tell us how you really feel, lol.


I'm thinking White Scars will see a lot of action

I don't think the new dex is bad, but I have trouble seeing it overtake Eldar/Tau/Daemons. The best pure SM list I've come up with so far:

Tiggy
5 Sniper Scouts
3 Cents w Grav

Kahn
8 Bikes, 2 Plasma
3x7 Bikes, 2 Grav
8 Bikes, 2 Melta
3 Thunderfire Cannons

1842

No perfect by any means, but it has the best of both world by allying Ultras with White Scars. I haven't seen this in action, so this is all theory.

 Pyriel- wrote:
Fulcrum is right and Martel732 is spot on.

The new SM codex is a pile of manure in that it is not the slightest bit competitive against the power builds tau and eldar use.
It´s just a fun codex for varied casual gaming, that´s it.

I'm starting to agree with this too.

Now, Marines can beat Drakespam, but they still can't beat Tau and Eldar. What about Daemons though... What's so special about them?

 Pyriel- wrote:
The new SM codex is a pile of manure in that it is not the slightest bit competitive against the power builds tau and eldar use.
It´s just a fun codex for varied casual gaming, that´s it.

 Fulcrum wrote:

So you think you would beat that with marines? We have a very competitive environment here of a couple hundred players who rotate through. With 60-70%, maybe a little more, being a either tau or eldar in some combination. I'd be interested in what you would run against it with the new codex, even tailoring your list. I'm the only person who has come close to beating it a couple times in games that were called early with an Azrael/IG blob ally list which I think had a chance to win had the game played out. But that is a highly optimized competitive list w/ guard allies that's not really a possibility with this new dex. As far as tactics he generally hops around at optimal range for him & eliminates high threat targets. Against a drop pod list he will deploy w his ass on the board edge, then turbo boost across the board after the drop if necessary. Only disembarking when absolutely necessary. Tau probably have the best possibility to get him due to ignoring cover & weight of fire w missilesides, possibly a triple drake list w/oblits if they can get to him to vector strike w multiple drakes on the same turn.

As I look at the list it's not unbeatable. I agree with the above comment, big fish little pond. Don't take it personaI you maybe his only competition as another big fish. I also used to be there, untill I started to compette in Adepticon and Nova. Now I know I was just playing guys who built fluffy or flashy list and thought they were compettive.

I think Salamanders in drop pods could put a serious hurting on this list, maybe even White Scars.

Back On Topic

Here is my BAD with the Codex Salamanders and Drop Pod Alpha Strike

And White Scars and Dark Angels Ravenwing as allies

Good: I'm Glad the Cents are high priced.

C:SM is not as bad as I first thought. The Iron Hands in particular have some utility that I like. However, the manner in which GW implement Tau and Eldar with sheer mathematical killiness is very difficult to scheme or plot around.

I'm beginning to feel like the terrain layout is going to be one of the most important features against Tau and Eldar, and that's just not fun.

Martel732 wrote:
C:SM is not as bad as I first thought. The Iron Hands in particular have some utility that I like. However, the manner in which GW implement Tau and Eldar with sheer mathematical killiness is very difficult to scheme or plot around.

I'm beginning to feel like the terrain layout is going to be one of the most important features against Tau and Eldar, and that's just not fun.

Sounds like 5th ed IG

 Continuity wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
C:SM is not as bad as I first thought. The Iron Hands in particular have some utility that I like. However, the manner in which GW implement Tau and Eldar with sheer mathematical killiness is very difficult to scheme or plot around.

I'm beginning to feel like the terrain layout is going to be one of the most important features against Tau and Eldar, and that's just not fun.

Sounds like 5th ed IG

Martel nailed it on the head.

They have utility, but overall the book lacks that one thing to make it great.

Also, Tau and Eldar are the Leafblower list of 6th. Sooooo much firepower and tough to beat.

Martel732 wrote:
C:SM is not as bad as I first thought. The Iron Hands in particular have some utility that I like. However, the manner in which GW implement Tau and Eldar with sheer mathematical killiness is very difficult to scheme or plot around.

I'm beginning to feel like the terrain layout is going to be one of the most important features against Tau and Eldar, and that's just not fun.

You should play warmachine then. 40k has always been a game about utilizing terrain. Tau and elder change it from needing it for cover for needing it to block LoS.

Everyone is freaking out about Tau and elder and I don't get it. Yes, they are very powerful codexs, yes they excel in tournaments because tournaments usually lack ample LoS blocking terrain. But here is the thing, they are no more powerful than GK and SW were in the last edition. Like those codexs tau and elder are dominating the scene because many of the top players start taking what they perceive to be the most powerful builds, heck even blackmoore brought tau to Nova. They are really good but not impossible to beat with tactics, good list building, and playing to the mission.

I just find it absurd , that every time a strong book comes out that doesn't have an easy hardcounter half of the community freaks out and it because an unstoppable whinefest. Then every subsequent book that comes gets judged on well it's not a hard counter to the what's perceived as the most powerful builds people say it sucks.

The new Spacemarine codex seems to me to have several builds that can deploy different assets and strategies to beat things like tau and elder. Their not a win button against tau and elder (which seems to be what half of DakkaDakka wants) but I don't think they are fighting with one hand behind their back either.

Pony, I didn't go to NOVA this year but it's my understanding (from what people have told me and from going there two years ago) it seems like there was a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain. And yet Tau and Eldar did very veyr well at NOVA.

Freaking out is not the appropriate word. I didn't imagine all my models getting picked up off the table at a frightening rate for an *elite* army.

My point is that relying on random elements like LOS blocking terrain to have a good shot at beating an opposing list is really unpleasant.

Each army list should be able to exploit LOS blocking terrain in some way, and be hurt by it in some way. It should not be the case of getting tabled by turn 4 through no fault of my own if I don't have random things to hide behind.

Nova also has the issue where their scenarios prioritize certain builds over others.

For example when I went if you were too vehicle heavy you were severely punished in the table quarters mission since they didnt count towards your VP total in each section.

 JGrand wrote:
I don't think the new dex is bad, but I have trouble seeing it overtake Eldar/Tau/Daemons. The best pure SM list I've come up with so far:

Tiggy
5 Sniper Scouts
3 Cents w Grav

Kahn
8 Bikes, 2 Plasma
3x7 Bikes, 2 Grav
8 Bikes, 2 Melta
3 Thunderfire Cannons

1842

No perfect by any means, but it has the best of both world by allying Ultras with White Scars. I haven't seen this in action, so this is all theory.

Why would anyone want to play Grav-Cents at a competitive level?
Do you know what else has 15 Grav-shots with T5 and doesn't get annihilated by any AP2-weapon? CCS-Bikers!
I would trade that UM-detachment for more AA and I would field more smaller bike-groups with more special weapons.

Why would anyone want to play Grav-Cents at a competitive level?
Do you know what else has 15 Grav-shots with T5 and doesn't get annihilated by any AP2-weapon? CCS-Bikers!
I would trade that UM-detachment for more AA and I would field more smaller bike-groups with more special weapons.

I believe that they have a place if one does not put too many points into them. They compare favorably to Broadsides, except they are a bit more specialized. Combined with a character (Tigirus/Tau Commander) or on a Skyshield, they don't have too many weaknesses. They do fear the strength 10 of Wraith Knights; however, Wraithknights really fear grav weapons.

Again, I haven't played against the new MEQ yet (maybe this weekend), but I wouldn't be so quick to rule them out yet.

I also don't know what you mean about the Bike Command Squad not getting annihilated by AP 2 weapons--they absolutely do. 2 Markerlights doesn't care about your cover save. In addition, those Bikes die faster to rate of fire, which is a big deal in competitive play right now.