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Martel732 wrote:
It's still more data than we had on codex: Tau. Yeah, C:SM is better than DA, but there's nothing in there as good as the Wave Serpent or battle focus. Or Riptides.

Like others have pointed out, the crazyness in all this is that when the Tau Codex came out I personally (and many others) made multiple posts how Riptide is so incredibly good that you'll see three in every competitive list. Nowadays you actually see four because of the Farsight supplement, and they got even better since two benefit from the same buffy Commander at the same time and split fire with target lock. Yet people argued furiously how the Riptide is overly expensive and that it doesn't work spammed and how they just don't see what's so good about the Riptide. My memory is foggy but I have similar memories from how the Necrons were received. There's nothing special about the Night Scythe, Wraiths and the Annihilation Barge, right? Just ordinary stuff.

Now I'm not saying Centurions or whatever is just as good as the other stuff that the community clearly underestimated but there's still massive amounts of hyperbole going around in every single thread about new army releases.

I really don't want to hear how Tiggy is undercosted in a game with the Vendetta and Wave Serpent.

Anyone else have a bad feeling about the IG codex?

The Wave Serpent is one of the most expensive transports in the entire game. There is such a thing as being overpowered without being undercosted.

Okay, fair enough. But you get the idea.

There are good things about the new codex. Ability to ally with itself and grav weapons mainly.

I devised this list which takes advantage of the strengths of the codex.


Iron Hands / Iron Hands ally

2x Librarian

2x Command squad with bikes and grav-guns

6x Scouts with heavy bolter

6x Land Speeder storm with heavy flamer

4x Bike squad with grav-guns

4x Thunderfire cannons



All have FNP(6+) and vehicles have IWND.


So, thats 18 grav-guns on bikes for 54 grav-gun shots to take care of Riptides or Serpents who dont get cover save.

16 barrage small blasts from thunderfires.

18 Heavy bolter shots and 24 bolter shots from infiltrating troops.

6 Heavy Flamer templates and 6 large blast blinding shots from outflanking speeders.


I think this could take on and win Tau and Eldars.

You can't ally yourself with the same Chapter though. I'm pretty damn sure of that.

Ok, different chapter ally then, doesn't really matter. The number of units and what they can do is what matters.

indeed, the good thing is adding a different detachment with CT that fit their roles better ^^

like white scars allies on bikes.

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't want to hear how Tiggy is undercosted in a game with the Vendetta and Wave Serpent.

Anyone else have a bad feeling about the IG codex?

This isn't really a reasonable comparison. First, the Vendetta is a relic of the past and we all know it is getting a price increase (and within the next six months, if rumors are to be believed). The Wave Serpent doesn't have the excuse and is a fair example of GW not being super great at this, of course.

However, it's STILL not a good comp because Tigurius and Wave Serpents have nothing in common aside from "being in 40k." Compare Tigurius to Tau buff-commanders or to Farseers (especially Eldrad, I guess) and we have a much better idea of if he is reasonably costed. Honestly, I don't know how he compares to either of those, and I'd guess he does not compare favorably at least to buff-commanders since they don't have to roll for their powers at all, but that would be the place to start.

GW had their chance to increase the Vendetta price in Skies of Blood. There's a real chance it stays the same price.

My comparison was merely to bring up other inappropriately costed models. I wasn't directly comparing. I was more comparing a "theoretical price of model X" against the "actual price of model X". If Tiggy is inappropriately costed, I don't think it's by much.

Martel732 wrote:
GW had their chance to increase the Vendetta price in Skies of Blood. There's a real chance it stays the same price.

My comparison was merely to bring up other inappropriately costed models. I wasn't directly comparing. I was more comparing a "theoretical price of model X" against the "actual price of model X". If Tiggy is inappropriately costed, I don't think it's by much.

Not really. They were able to change the rules for other flyers because they weren't already in another rulebook, however the Vendetta already existed and players could have avoided a higher price by simply not buying that book.

Martel732 wrote:
GW had their chance to increase the Vendetta price in Skies of Blood. There's a real chance it stays the same price.

My comparison was merely to bring up other inappropriately costed models. I wasn't directly comparing. I was more comparing a "theoretical price of model X" against the "actual price of model X". If Tiggy is inappropriately costed, I don't think it's by much.

I agree that Tiggy is not undercosted, actually. He is fantastic, but he is also a T4 model without an invulnarable save or Eternal Warrior, so he'll always be on the edge of getting pasted. Also, while his psychic abilities are more reliable than almost any other psyker, there is still a lot more variability than Tau commanders will ever have to deal with.

Yeah, when I see Tiggy on the board, he'll be something that has to be dealt with. Compare this to the immortality of the Wave Serpents or the "all your Stormraven are belong to us" of the Vendetta.

TFC took a hard nerf. There are benefits to being barrage, but multiple barrage without tl tends to be wildly inaccurate. It is still well worth 25 points if you need the tech marine , but I don't see the need for 2 3 or 4 tech marines like people are spamming

I don't own any TFCs. It's not likely the BA get them, either. There are plenty of other marine heavy support choices and other ways to ignore cover or take on hordes.

I think its going to take a while, but I think the grav gun craze is going to settle down. Yeah the gun is good against a lot of things, but it will just take one DE / Ork player to really make those grav gun bikers and command units seem like very wasted points. So while the army may have gotten stronger vs one codex, its very likely that it got a little shafted against others. But not because of constant rules, but more because of the choices made.

Moderation in all things. Its not like a standard weapon suddenly gained the grav abilites. Like say grav missiles launchers. You have to actively take them, and in doing so you are actively not taking something else. And as the grav weapons have obvious downsides vs certain unit types, I don't really see them as a no brainier option.

In fact, I really see nothing in the new codex that makes my current DE build feel any different than it did using the old codex. Truth be told, things might have just gotten a little easier if too many of the new toys are taken.

 schadenfreude wrote:
TFC took a hard nerf. There are benefits to being barrage, but multiple barrage without tl tends to be wildly inaccurate. It is still well worth 25 points if you need the tech marine , but I don't see the need for 2 3 or 4 tech marines like people are spamming

TFC's most certainly did not take a hard nerf. Anyone saying this obviously hasn't played many if any games with them.

Now you can hide them completely from sight.

Directional cover is completely removed.

Barrage sniping is the real deal. Special weapon carriers, heavy weapons, and banners are rarely characters so they cannot LoS! the wounds. Being able to remove all the weapon upgrades from a squad is not a nerf.

Hitting vehicles on side armor and ignoring directional cover is not a nerf.

Between Tiggy, Buffmanders, SW, BA, DA, and Farseer allies, there's tons of ways to get prescience.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
TFC took a hard nerf. There are benefits to being barrage, but multiple barrage without tl tends to be wildly inaccurate. It is still well worth 25 points if you need the tech marine , but I don't see the need for 2 3 or 4 tech marines like people are spamming

TFC's most certainly did not take a hard nerf. Anyone saying this obviously hasn't played many if any games with them.

Now you can hide them completely from sight.

Directional cover is completely removed.

Barrage sniping is the real deal. Special weapon carriers, heavy weapons, and banners are rarely characters so they cannot LoS! the wounds. Being able to remove all the weapon upgrades from a squad is not a nerf.

Hitting vehicles on side armor and ignoring directional cover is not a nerf.

Between Tiggy, Buffmanders, SW, BA, DA, and Farseer allies, there's tons of ways to get prescience.

TFC was already able to completely ignore cover

Barage sniping requires the weapon to hit.

Shooting without los or tl is wildly inaccurate

SM players didn't tend to prescience TFC before the new dex, now it pretty much requires a prescience to be useful. Prescience isn't as cheap and easily available as it is with eldar. The limited supply of prescience is probably better spent on more expensive units

 Jayden63 wrote:
I think its going to take a while, but I think the grav gun craze is going to settle down. Yeah the gun is good against a lot of things, but it will just take one DE / Ork player to really make those grav gun bikers and command units seem like very wasted points.

Those bikes have twin-linked bolters in addition to the grav-gun, so they are not useless against units like orks.

 schadenfreude wrote:

TFC was already able to completely ignore cover

Not if you wanted AP4.

Polecat wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I think its going to take a while, but I think the grav gun craze is going to settle down. Yeah the gun is good against a lot of things, but it will just take one DE / Ork player to really make those grav gun bikers and command units seem like very wasted points.

Those bikes have twin-linked bolters in addition to the grav-gun, so they are not useless against units like orks.

So you have paid how much for those TL bolters? Yeah, those are wasted points. And while you can argue that they can still do something against orks, its not what your actually paying the points for. You bought the unit for the grav guns in hopes of taking down something nasty. Yeah I can shoot my 30 grots into a unit of terminators. Yeah they might kill one. But thats not why I brought them to the fight. Some armies just do not bring a good cost vs reward target for the new toys. What if you brought the AA tank and roll up against a pure SW army? More wasted points. That unit of 3 bikers will kill 7-12 ish orks a game with shooting (worse if their is a kkf present). Not exactly a fair trade off on the 6 point ork.

I would love to only field units that are cost-effective at killing any type of unit out there. Unfortunately no such units exists.

That's why I bring different units to deal with different enemies. The best way in the new codex to deal with Riptides are grav-guns IMO.

Luckily grav guns also cover a decent band of saves and toughness which is great, and the whole point of giving em bikes is for relentless 5T and mobility. The TL boltgun is just icing.

 Jayden63 wrote:
So you have paid how much for those TL bolters? Yeah, those are wasted points. And while you can argue that they can still do something against orks, its not what your actually paying the points for. You bought the unit for the grav guns in hopes of taking down something nasty. Yeah I can shoot my 30 grots into a unit of terminators. Yeah they might kill one. But thats not why I brought them to the fight. Some armies just do not bring a good cost vs reward target for the new toys. What if you brought the AA tank and roll up against a pure SW army? More wasted points. That unit of 3 bikers will kill 7-12 ish orks a game with shooting (worse if their is a kkf present). Not exactly a fair trade off on the 6 point ork.

Notice how you start by saying that you *can* shoot your 30 grots into terminators, but you don't because that's not what they are for. Then follow up by saying that Grav Bikers are horrible because they don't demolish Orks, when that clearly isn't what *they* are for. Grav Bikes are very good against a whole lot of different units, because you have the Grav Gun and the TL Bolter. Granted they aren't amazing against Vehicles, nor against Orks, but they still provide more than nothing, and you don't bring them to deal with hordes, you bring them to deal with MCs and Elite Infantry.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

TFC was already able to completely ignore cover

Not if you wanted AP4.

Fire warriors or dire avengers behind an aegis are a common problem.

Being an IG player that's a big fan of a griffin in 6th ed I can vouch that 6/4 indirect murders them behind an aegis wall, when it has TL. Being an IG player I also have a lot of experience and insight with multiple barrage weapons, and they have terrible accuracy without a reroll to hit.

I think IG thudd guns are appropriately priced, and up to 4 of them can be purchased as a single unit. If you're not familiar they are an artillery piece that is 1/2 the cost of a TFC crewed by 3 guardsmen and dishes out 5/5 small pies at a rate of heavy 4, or 8 shots for a pair of thudd guns the same price as a TFC. They are really nasty when 4 of them get a prescience, but 2 of them with no TL is just 8 small pies that are wildly inaccurate. That's my baseline, and why I'm so meh about the TFC.

Polecat wrote:
I would love to only field units that are cost-effective at killing any type of unit out there. Unfortunately no such units exists.

That's why I bring different units to deal with different enemies. The best way in the new codex to deal with Riptides are grav-guns IMO.

The grav weapons vs. Riptides battle sort of goes both ways though so I wouldn't go as far as speak of grav being a counter. Riptides have the range advantage and can activate their 3+ invulnerable shields (or use cover / friendly model conga lines to get 4+ cover for the other Riptides and nova shield the front one) if needed all the while nuking AP2 big templates that ignore armour and cover saves wiping out entire squads of bikes/cents. It will be bloody, but which army composition is better vs. all comers? That remains to be seen, but nevertheless I do like your approach in building a modern SM army. It's mobile, quite tough, and deadly.

 Therion wrote:

Polecat wrote:
I would love to only field units that are cost-effective at killing any type of unit out there. Unfortunately no such units exists.

That's why I bring different units to deal with different enemies. The best way in the new codex to deal with Riptides are grav-guns IMO.

The grav weapons vs. Riptides battle sort of goes both ways though so I wouldn't go as far as speak of grav being a counter. Riptides have the range advantage and can activate their 3+ invulnerable shields if needed all the while nuking AP2 big templates that ignore armour and cover saves wiping out entire squads of bikes/cents. It will be bloody, but which army composition is better vs. all comers? That remains to be seen, but I do like your approach in building a modern SM army. It's mobile, quite tough, and deadly.

Better kill those pathfinders first with TFC to avoid the ignore cover. Oh and spread out. those pie plats are great when people are dumb enough to clump together.

 Desubot wrote:

Better kill those pathfinders first with TFC to avoid the ignore cover. Oh and spread out. those pie plats are great when people are dumb enough to clump together.

The best lists don't really use pathfinders anymore. In fact the only marker lights seem to be the ones on the 2-3 Skyrays. It's the buff Commander and O'Vesa that join a Riptide with a target lock that allows for a total of two Riptides and the drones to split fire, ignore cover, re-roll all misses and benefit from tank hunters / monster hunters. The actual marker lights can be used for other stuff.

TehCheator wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
So you have paid how much for those TL bolters? Yeah, those are wasted points. And while you can argue that they can still do something against orks, its not what your actually paying the points for. You bought the unit for the grav guns in hopes of taking down something nasty. Yeah I can shoot my 30 grots into a unit of terminators. Yeah they might kill one. But thats not why I brought them to the fight. Some armies just do not bring a good cost vs reward target for the new toys. What if you brought the AA tank and roll up against a pure SW army? More wasted points. That unit of 3 bikers will kill 7-12 ish orks a game with shooting (worse if their is a kkf present). Not exactly a fair trade off on the 6 point ork.

Notice how you start by saying that you *can* shoot your 30 grots into terminators, but you don't because that's not what they are for. Then follow up by saying that Grav Bikers are horrible because they don't demolish Orks, when that clearly isn't what *they* are for. Grav Bikes are very good against a whole lot of different units, because you have the Grav Gun and the TL Bolter. Granted they aren't amazing against Vehicles, nor against Orks, but they still provide more than nothing, and you don't bring them to deal with hordes, you bring them to deal with MCs and Elite Infantry.

But thats the point. In a tournament if you stock up on grav weapons, it only takes one horde list and your no longer playing on the top tables. Had you stuck with plasma on those bikes your still able to damage MCs and Elite infantry and doing better at killing the hordes with 2+ to wound instead of 4+ and light vehicles, for those same shots.

I can see the value in one decked out grav weapon unit that is specifically designed to remove Riptides, Wraithknights, and some Nids. But to focus your whole army on killing those things alone really opens you up to a hard counter that you could run into. But that is a tournament, in pick up games the general feeling or the need to win impulse might be a little different.

And that goes back to my point. The grav weapon is a good weapon, but its not an autowin weapon because you have to give up something else just as valuable to take it. Its not like it was with Eldar Guardians who were just given rending layered on top of what was already there.

 Jayden63 wrote:

TehCheator wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
So you have paid how much for those TL bolters? Yeah, those are wasted points. And while you can argue that they can still do something against orks, its not what your actually paying the points for. You bought the unit for the grav guns in hopes of taking down something nasty. Yeah I can shoot my 30 grots into a unit of terminators. Yeah they might kill one. But thats not why I brought them to the fight. Some armies just do not bring a good cost vs reward target for the new toys. What if you brought the AA tank and roll up against a pure SW army? More wasted points. That unit of 3 bikers will kill 7-12 ish orks a game with shooting (worse if their is a kkf present). Not exactly a fair trade off on the 6 point ork.

Notice how you start by saying that you *can* shoot your 30 grots into terminators, but you don't because that's not what they are for. Then follow up by saying that Grav Bikers are horrible because they don't demolish Orks, when that clearly isn't what *they* are for. Grav Bikes are very good against a whole lot of different units, because you have the Grav Gun and the TL Bolter. Granted they aren't amazing against Vehicles, nor against Orks, but they still provide more than nothing, and you don't bring them to deal with hordes, you bring them to deal with MCs and Elite Infantry.

But thats the point. In a tournament if you stock up on grav weapons, it only takes one horde list and your no longer playing on the top tables. Had you stuck with plasma on those bikes your still able to damage MCs and Elite infantry and doing better at killing the hordes with 2+ to wound instead of 4+ and light vehicles, for those same shots.

I can see the value in one decked out grav weapon unit that is specifically designed to remove Riptides, Wraithknights, and some Nids. But to focus your whole army on killing those things alone really opens you up to a hard counter that you could run into. But that is a tournament, in pick up games the general feeling or the need to win impulse might be a little different.

And that goes back to my point. The grav weapon is a good weapon, but its not an autowin weapon because you have to give up something else just as valuable to take it. Its not like it was with Eldar Guardians who were just given rending layered on top of what was already there.

Bikes are really good at dealing with hoards mate, with T/L bolters and then combat. Hit and run, S5 HoW attacks, 4 attacks on the charge and FNP. Orcs need 6's to wound when charged. A white scar, grav gun toting, bike command squad is as versatile as you get IMO.