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Jesus just imagine the $$$$ for a list like that...

Has anyone tried ironclads on a smaller scale. 2000pt list. Two dropped ironclads backed up by two venerable rifleman with mof conversion Beamer behind aegis. Pair of vindis, pair of talons. Three full tac squads. Lots of threat. Long range, medium range and upfront and personal. It will not die.


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Two tac squads in rhinos. Third goes behind aegis with empty pod.

My list is as follows:

CM with stuff
MotF with stuff
Techmarine
Techmarine

5x Tacticals
5x Tacticals

Terminator Assault Squad w/ dedicated LRC

LRA
LRP
LRC

Not a typical IH list, but I am working towards this:

Clan leader on bike (Shield Eternal, AA, and Thunderhammer)
5 bikes with 2 grav and combi-grav
50 tacticals in pods
stormtalon
thunderfire
grav/amp centurions

I should hit hard and then have the resilience to last the rest of the fight.

Just getting back into 40k... could anyone answer some of my questions please. I played Vanilla SM before I quit a year or 2 ago.

Is a Land Raider Achilles a FW thing? Because I'm not allowed to use FW in the locals here.
Also, what LR variant would you use if you weren't using the LR Achilles? Would it still be viable to do LR spam (2-3) w/o the Achilles?

LR Crusader due to greater transport capacity. You can then leave a Techmarine in it, and still transport stuff.

Buy an Achilles and Magnetise it, then you've got the best of both worlds.

syypher wrote:
Just getting back into 40k... could anyone answer some of my questions please. I played Vanilla SM before I quit a year or 2 ago.

Is a Land Raider Achilles a FW thing? Because I'm not allowed to use FW in the locals here.
Also, what LR variant would you use if you weren't using the LR Achilles? Would it still be viable to do LR spam (2-3) w/o the Achilles?

Yeah sure... Welcome back.

The Achilles is indeed a Forge World model. It's a shame your locals won't let you use it, it's a phenomenal tank in IH armies.

If you can't use that, try three Crusaders. The Crusader has the transport capacity and enough firepower to annihilate hordes.

Redeemer is ok, but with such a short range, you risk getting it Melted.
The Phobos or regular Raider is not a greatTank due to smaller transport capacity and you're better off using LC/ML Cents if you want Anti Tank firepower.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My list is as follows:

CM with stuff
MotF with stuff
Techmarine
Techmarine

5x Tacticals
5x Tacticals

Terminator Assault Squad w/ dedicated LRC

LRA
LRP
LRC

Ouch. In KP games, you'll be fine. I like the list, but how do you keep objectives?


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Jamo wrote:
Has anyone tried ironclads on a smaller scale. 2000pt list. Two dropped ironclads backed up by two venerable rifleman with mof conversion Beamer behind aegis. Pair of vindis, pair of talons. Three full tac squads. Lots of threat. Long range, medium range and upfront and personal. It will not die.


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Two tac squads in rhinos. Third goes behind aegis with empty pod.

My list is very similar at 1750, except I drop the Ironclads.

After trying Ironclads and getting slaughtered by Tau, twice, I don't think they are good enough. YMMV Though.


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Keep the ideas coming, they are really good.


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UPDATE -

I've streamlined the OP a bit and added some more stuff from testing.

Got four other gamers testing IH, so the results are coming in thick and fast.

Cheers for reply. What would be good to replace ironclads?

2000pts

Mof conversion Beamer

3 full tac squads rhinos

2 venerable rifleman

2 talOns skyhammer

2 vindis with extra bolter

Aegis quadgun

400 points left. What would fit well?


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Btw, what size blast is the conversion Beamer?

Jamo wrote:
Cheers for reply. What would be good to replace ironclads?

2000pts

Mof conversion Beamer

3 full tac squads rhinos

2 venerable rifleman

2 talOns skyhammer

2 vindis with extra bolter

Aegis quadgun

400 points left. What would fit well?


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Btw, what size blast is the conversion Beamer?

The Conversion Beamer is only a small blast. I've not tried it, but it doesn't do enough for me.

Personally, I would drop...

The Conversion Beamer.
The Aegis Quad Gun.

That gives another 120 points.

So you have 520 points spare and that is a lot.

At 2000 points, you venture in the realms of additional slots for your army, which most other armies will be abusing.

You can go a number of different ways here as you have a solid core of stuff.

From what I can see you have

HQ
MOTF.

ELITES
Ven Dread Rifleman.
Ven Dread Rifleman.

TROOPS
Tac Squad in Rhino.
Tac Squad in Rhino.
Tac Squad in Rhino.

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon.
Stormtalon.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Vindicator.
Vindicator.

It's a solid start and I for one would take near enough the same build.

You can't go wrong with a big tank to get a squad to the front lines and they don't get bigger for Marines than a Land Raider.
Everyone who plays IH would say Achilles is the best and they are not wrong. Sure it has a very small capacity for troops, but it has more survivability than any other tank. Coupled with IWND and the MOTF, it serious just doesn't die.
If your local group doesn't allow FW stuff go for a Crusader. It mulches infantry and provides a Tactical squads worth of firepower to the squad it transports - TH/SS Terminators in this case.

You could also take Stormraven if you wanted more Anti Armour that can also annihilate flyers.

One thing I did notice is that you lack heavy melee... For this, I recommend one of the best heavy melee units in the game... TH/SS Terminators. With a Crusader and those Vindicators, there wouldn't be much left of anything you assaulted.

Finally... Upgrades.

Take Lascannons on any flyers that you can. They will bring down Drakes and sure up your battles against heavy MC like Wraithknights and Riptide.

I hope this helps.

I've only played a couple games of 6th, none with the new codex and given the IH rules, some FW love and the new codex in general I want to do up a new IH army. I want some fluff, but plan on having at least a dose of competitiveness in there as well. The only issue/restriction outside of the fluff, is I want Heresy era figs only, and 95% FW models. Also, I want to make it compliant with the 40k world so I can play local tournies. There, I have set my ground rules, I have a few questions.

Dreads are very Iron Handy, and the new FW contempter is a must have. Should this be a counts as Iron clad or with a back line regular dread with TLLC or TLACx2 be better?

Going to use a StormEagle to counts as a stormraven. I was going to put a captain with command squad in here to be my only real assault unit. I am rethinking that now... This would be my only AA option unless things change. Techmarine goes in here as well to repair

MotF with CB on a bike attached to a small bike squad. Bike squads are so cheap now, these would be his wound/body guard.

Three tactical squads in Rhinos two of which 100% anti infantry/light vehicle

Two Thunderfires

Two landspeeder typhoons

Should I make it so I have two dreads as well?

Maybe I should start a new thread in armylists??


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Also willing to remove some stuff for Predators...

 Master Melta wrote:
I've only played a couple games of 6th, none with the new codex and given the IH rules, some FW love and the new codex in general I want to do up a new IH army. I want some fluff, but plan on having at least a dose of competitiveness in there as well. The only issue/restriction outside of the fluff, is I want Heresy era figs only, and 95% FW models. Also, I want to make it compliant with the 40k world so I can play local tournies. There, I have set my ground rules, I have a few questions.

Dreads are very Iron Handy, and the new FW contempter is a must have. Should this be a counts as Iron clad or with a back line regular dread with TLLC or TLACx2 be better?

Going to use a StormEagle to counts as a stormraven. I was going to put a captain with command squad in here to be my only real assault unit. I am rethinking that now... This would be my only AA option unless things change. Techmarine goes in here as well to repair

MotF with CB on a bike attached to a small bike squad. Bike squads are so cheap now, these would be his wound/body guard.

Three tactical squads in Rhinos two of which 100% anti infantry/light vehicle

Two Thunderfires

Two landspeeder typhoons

Should I make it so I have two dreads as well?

Maybe I should start a new thread in armylists??


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Also willing to remove some stuff for Predators...

Your army is going to look bad ass.

The only thing I can comment on without seeing an army list is the Contemptor Dread.

I'd use it as a Contemptor. A mortis variant if you can. They are allowed in standard 40k as far as I'm aware of.

There is an army list thread, yes. But if a mod doesn't comlain, carry on.

Here's a question...

If you were starting IH and were building in stages, what would you take in 500 or 750 points?

Just curious as I'm not sure if I want smaller Tactical Marine squads in Razorbacks or full squads in Rhino.

The Contempter is FW rules, pretty sure Codex only stuff is allowed so it boils down to Iron Clad, which I love or back line fire support dread.

I won't be doing razorbacks on account of their 'newness'.

If I could roll with 750 it would be MotF on a bike with his bike retinue and two 10 man tacs in Rhinos..

I am now leading towards dropping the stormraven in games less than 2k and rolling with 2 dreads, landspeeders, and TFC as the extras.

syypher wrote:
Just getting back into 40k... could anyone answer some of my questions please. I played Vanilla SM before I quit a year or 2 ago.

Is a Land Raider Achilles a FW thing? Because I'm not allowed to use FW in the locals here.
Also, what LR variant would you use if you weren't using the LR Achilles? Would it still be viable to do LR spam (2-3) w/o the Achilles?

sadly none of the other variants are nearly as good

how do LRs die? by exploding. not ever by being hull point wrecked sadly. so the IWND really wont help a ton. it will help, but when that melta gets through, by by 250 point LR.

Something to note...

My friends tested small games (500-750) with IH vs a number of different armies.

IH seem to suffer at low points games when you try to take advantage of the CT.

You can't get more than a couple of minimum squads and a HQ with three Razorbacks.

Anyone got a resolution to this?

I wonder if an Ironclad or two would be a better choice than Razorbacks, along with an Aegis Line for the troops?

The Razorback with TL-LAC is quite expensive. I have been playing with 5man Squads in TL-Razorbacks.

It looks good superficially, like 4-5 Squads means you spam them. But the high cost of the TL-Las means you are investing alot - an awful lot.

I'm going with Rifle-Dreads for AA and ground fire, pair of Iron Clads (with a flamer over a melta) I've had good experiences with them but you've got to field at least 2. Not a problem because with IH it's HS you have to ration. I'm even considering 2 x StormTalon. It's still early days for lists and play testing, I'm still waiting for Army Builder Codex files, then I will start really tweaking.

Puscifer, have you tried the LR spawn list I suggested with 2 battlecannon bateries? I would love to have some feed back from you, Im trying to free enought points to change 2 godhammers or phobos as you like to name them for 2 Achilles but still havent decided what to drop.
Yesterday i faced what I think can be the worse adversary for this list: Oshova army with multyple suicide melta crisis squads, riptides and broadsides and a adl with comunicator for the crisis....
It was a hard game where i lost 2 LRs in my oponent 2nd turn but at the end the spawn proved to work, once he droped his meltas in my lines i could easily erase them in my next turn leaving him with no troop to claim objetives and no weapon in his whole army to scratch a Land raider after killing his riptide. I won cause of the 5 troops squads i use.
Still I feel 1 or 2 achilles could help in the army, could you help me there sir?

Sandokann wrote:
Puscifer, have you tried the LR spawn list I suggested with 2 battlecannon bateries? I would love to have some feed back from you, Im trying to free enought points to change 2 godhammers or phobos as you like to name them for 2 Achilles but still havent decided what to drop.
Yesterday i faced what I think can be the worse adversary for this list: Oshova army with multyple suicide melta crisis squads, riptides and broadsides and a adl with comunicator for the crisis....
It was a hard game where i lost 2 LRs in my oponent 2nd turn but at the end the spawn proved to work, once he droped his meltas in my lines i could easily erase them in my next turn leaving him with no troop to claim objetives and no weapon in his whole army to scratch a Land raider after killing his riptide. I won cause of the 5 troops squads i use.
Still I feel 1 or 2 achilles could help in the army, could you help me there sir?

I haven't tried the list you described as yet. I know one of my friends saw it and said he wants to try it.

I'll get back to you when he has against a couple of different opponents.


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As for Achilles... Every IH army should take One, but no more than that. It's a 300 point Tank, which has a lot of firepower, but can't transport a lot of things. You also need more than one MOTF for it to be effective, which it won't be as I feel that every army needs a beatstick.

I have to say I am severely disappointed in the lack of terminators in these Iron hand lists! They are supposed to be one of the most Terminatorin chapters this side of the galactic Mississippi! Let me show you guys how its done!!!!!! ;P

Iron Hands 2,000!!!

HQ
230 Chapter Master: TH, artificer armor, shield eternal
90 MotF
75 Techmarine: servo harness

Elites
225 Terminators (5): TH/SS
225 Terminators (5): TH/SS

Troops
175 Tactical Squad(10): Lascannon, Plasma gun
175 Tactical Squad(10): Lascannon, Plasma gun
175 Tactical Squad(10): Lascannon, Plasma gun

Heavy Support
275 LRC: Multi melta, extra armor
275 LRC: Multi melta, extra armor
75 Stalker (so you have at least some anti air)

CM+MotF+terminators in one LRC then tech+terminators in the other and the rest of the units shooting at things i guess = Best list EVAR!

I will accept my endless accolades now.

Terminators aren't necessarily Iron Hands things. Once a upon a time you could have had a Termie Sergeant, but the problem was you couldn't stick the squad in a Rhino or a Drop-pod because of the Damn Sergeant. So literally no one used this.

These days I'd rather take take an Iron Clad or Sternguard over termies. If you take Iron Hands Termies you need to take a Transport which means a Landraider. So thats pushing 450pts + for one unit which really doesn't benefit that much from it IWND or 6+ FNP.

In the olden days, IH couldn't field Terminator squads because they didn't have many suits - most of their TDA went with the Morlocks at Istaavan

 mwnciboo wrote:
Terminators aren't necessarily Iron Hands things. Once a upon a time you could have had a Termie Sergeant, but the problem was you couldn't stick the squad in a Rhino or a Drop-pod because of the Damn Sergeant. So literally no one used this.

These days I'd rather take take an Iron Clad or Sternguard over termies. If you take Iron Hands Termies you need to take a Transport which means a Landraider. So thats pushing 450pts + for one unit which really doesn't benefit that much from it IWND or 6+ FNP.

I just remember reading some things about how Iron Hands have a lot more terminator armor than most chapters so i decided to be a little silly and throw that list together quickly, it wasn't supposed to be a serious list lol.

If I were going to be serious i would do some sort of hybrid drop list. Have 2 ironclads drop in turn one with long range back up from preads and a thunderfire cannon, have a drop pod of sternguard come in later. sprinkle in some tac squads maybe with a razorback or two and your choice of bad ass HQ. Oh and maybe some stormtalons for AA and strafing runs.

 KingCronan wrote:
I have to say I am severely disappointed in the lack of terminators in these Iron hand lists! They are supposed to be one of the most Terminatorin chapters this side of the galactic Mississippi! Let me show you guys how its done!!!!!! ;P

Iron Hands 2,000!!!

HQ
230 Chapter Master: TH, artificer armor, shield eternal
90 MotF
75 Techmarine: servo harness

Elites
225 Terminators (5): TH/SS
225 Terminators (5): TH/SS

Troops
175 Tactical Squad(10): Lascannon, Plasma gun
175 Tactical Squad(10): Lascannon, Plasma gun
175 Tactical Squad(10): Lascannon, Plasma gun

Heavy Support
275 LRC: Multi melta, extra armor
275 LRC: Multi melta, extra armor
75 Stalker (so you have at least some anti air)

CM+MotF+terminators in one LRC then tech+terminators in the other and the rest of the units shooting at things i guess = Best list EVAR!

I will accept my endless accolades now.

I like that list.

The only thing that screams out to me is lack of Rhino for the Tac Squads and I'd take Hunter over the Stalker. The Hunter is more reliable than the Stalker for dropping Flyers. If it hits, it usually kills. Stalkers are good for FMC.

I'd probably drop the CM and Techmarine in favour of Rhino for your Tac squads and possibly a Stormtalon to sure up your Anti Flyer game.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In the olden days, IH couldn't field Terminator squads because they didn't have many suits - most of their TDA went with the Morlocks at Istaavan

Standby for this to be RETCON'D by the MASSACRE Forge World Book - I've been lead to believe that Morlock Terminators will be joined by another Terminator Unit. I'm not sure what they are called, but I always thought it was MORLOCKS but apparently there is another named terminator unit in the book. I might be wrong but a friend of mine who came to tournament last weekend works at up at "Evil Corporate HQ" and he told me there is another termie type unit coming in massacre. I'll see on Games day.

But I prefer my own

As of right now, I'm taking a break from testing Marines.

I can't get on with the way this codex plays. It might be also the fact I've had over 30 games in a week.

My brain is fried with Marines.

Hey Puscifer I know you're over marines at the mo, but can you give us a quick rundown of how those 30 games went. Specifically IH. Just some basics mate.

Here is an update for the "Sick Raider" list at 2.000 Pts

IH Land Raider Achilles with 5 scouts and Librarian
IH Land Raider Achiles with 5 scouts
IH Land Raider Phobos
BT Land Raider Crusader with 5 crusaders and MoTF
BT Land Raider Terminus Ultra
2 Wall of Marthyrs Battlecannon fortifications

Now its starting to work, the 2 Achilles and the Terminus game me the firepower and resistance I was lacking. Its a miracle you can field 7 AV14 monsters and still retain 4 troops for objetives holding.

And this list will laught at melta threats.

Jamo wrote:
Hey Puscifer I know you're over marines at the mo, but can you give us a quick rundown of how those 30 games went. Specifically IH. Just some basics mate.

Yeah sure...

This is the army I tested:

2x MOTF
Power Axes.
One has 2 Servitors.

2x Techmarine.

3x 10 Tactical Marines.
Lascannons, Plasma Guns, TLHB Razorbacks.

2x Stormtalon.
Lascannons.

Land Raider Achilles.
2x Vindicator.

I decided to abuse the IWND and the fact that the LRA is nigh indestructible, especially in this build.

I lump all the MOTF and Techmarines in the LRA and combat squad the Tactical Squads. The Lascannons go on the home objectives or ruins that have been bolstered by MOTF and TM. The PG guys in the Razorbacks.

I set up castled in a corner and attack with full force on a hard flank. I used this to great effect with DW so I hoped it would work here.

My friends went with other builds from the Vanilla Codex (I got IH) but we each took thirty games against the top three armies in our Metas... Tau, Eldar and Nurgle Drakespam.

Ten games each.

Vs Tau.
The Tau list had three riptides, a drop squad of Melta suits, some FW, Pathfinders, Missilesides and a couple of HH.
All of these games were very bloody. T1, I bombed up the board and popped smoke on everything except the Achilles. I used this to fire it's TFC into the infantry, which decimated his FWs and killed off the entire PF squad, which was good as I wanted to keep cover for my Vindicators and Achilles. The Lascannon squads did well by putting some hurt on one of the Riptides. Tau first turns involved rallying of some units. Then the utter annihilation began. The Missilesides and Riptides just erased my Transports and the HH bombed in and exploded both Vindicators with Rail Cannons. So much for smoke launchers. Second turns involved one or both Stormtalon coming on... And one of them getting blown out of the sky with Missileside interceptor shots.
But in return I always killed one Riptide and severely mauled another with a combination of shots from what was left of my infantry and their Plasma Guns/Lascannons and a surviving Stormtalon if both came on. The split fire on the LRA helped too. Again the TFC destroyed the infantry. My opponent never had more than two squads of FW on the board past Turn 2. Tau T2 involved the drops of Melta Suits plus commander. As they could do nothing vs my LRA, they opted to go after my Lascannon squads holding rear objective. It was a massacre for the squad targeted by mass Fusion Guns and Plasma Rifles. The remaining Riptide with its pie plate cannon thing ripped my PG squads to bits as they were quite close together. Then the worst thing that could happen, would happen... A pair of HH Rail Cannon rounds... Straight through one end and out the other of the LRA. The IWND and Tech guys can't help vs this. T3 was a moot point as I had very little to do. Tabled or conceded EOT 3.

IH 1 - 9 Tau.
The one game was a sheer fluke as my opponent had incredibly bad dice rolls.

VS Eldar...
This was a very strong Iyanden list, filled with WG in Scatter Serpents, 2 WK, SS and a Squad of 10 Reapers.
I think the Reapers are a new addition to combat MEQ as my opponent never used them before.
My opponent is a very aggressive Eldar player and pretty much rammed his army down my throat. I greatly underestimated this army when it came to firepower and forgot that the HDCannons on the WK aren't lance shots and that those WK are insanely fast. The Serpent shields were annoying as they kept saving against Lascannon shots and causing glances. Their weapons were too much for my Razorbacks and I couldn't make a single IWND roll on my tanks. The reapers for the first couple of turns in each game did very little except shoot at the rearguard Lascannon squads. Even the ruins were very little help vs this huge amount of anti MEQ fire.
On T2, things go bad. Those WK always end up popping the Vindicators and I just don't have enough firepower to take the WK down. Starting to wish I took Grav Weapons as this would have helped vs Tau and Eldar.
On T3 I ended up losing the LRA to both WK and the WG in the Serpents mop up the infantry.

IH 0 - 10 Eldar.
Still yet to beat an Eldar army in 25 years of gaming.
I didn't know how good those WK are. Very very strong and the Cannons just mulch tanks.

Vs Drakespam.
This is an army I play against a lot and have won with my Orks and DW.
Typical Drakespam list. Three Drakes, lots of Nurgle stuff and Obliterators.
These games went really really well. His Drakes couldn't touch the juicy insides of the Razorbacks, so they made a beeline for my rearguard Lascannon squads. I made sure the Obliterators never had LOS to my Vindicators and I gave the Chaos player the chance to pop the LRA which he just couldn't do. In each game, I managed to get my Vinicators up the board to dispense holy trash can sized shells of death on the PM and obliterators. I think I got lucky shots on the Rhinos carrying the PM as out of ten games, I had popped all three in the second turn in seven or eight of them, which left them dangerously open for Demolisher shots.
In the games I lost, the opponent DS his Obliterators near my tanks and used Melta Weapons against them. Always Vindicators first. When I learnt the tactic, I countered by putting a razorback tight in to the sides of the Vindicators.
The Stormtalons helped a lot vs the Drakes and I always opted to go second. There wasn't a game where he had a full compliment of Drakes on the table at the same time.
All in all, very close games.

IH 6 - 4 Drakespam.

Verdict:
IWND does not help vs Tau or Eldar!!! Rail Cannons and HD Cannons kill indiscriminately and make a mockery what is the toughest tank in the game. You need the PFG here to shield from these attacks. Come to think of it IWND doesn't really help at all. If an opponent wants to kill a tank, they will with extreme anti tank firepower. IWND also doesn't help vs half range Melta.
If you can get a Dread into combat with IWND, then you are in a good place, but it's so freekin difficult to get there vs these three armies, hence why I don't recommend Dread Drop with IH, but YMMV.
Also... TAKE GRAV WEAPONS!!! My army was TAC and I missed Grav Weapons. If I had them, I could have put out more hurt.

I don't think the Achilles is going to be great in competitive. There are waaaaay too many answers to it in the top lists.

TBH, I don't think IH can compete.

That title belongs to White Scars and their relentless Grav Weapons.

It's been fun, I've tested as much as I wanted and I now know Marines are not for me. Too fragile. I'd even say, most fragile army in game as 3+ is easy to get around and you lack numbers.

It's a shame really, as Marines have some of my favourite models and fluff.

Oh well... Back to Tyranids.


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Oh and if you're going to spam vehicles... For the love of the Emperor... Spam Land Raiders... The Rhino chassis doesn't cut it.