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Where do you draw line of sight from the manticore missiles? From the tip? From any part? Center of the rack?

Secondary question: since the rack is moveable, can its height be adjusted ingame? Like turning a tank turret.

Thirdly: can you fire at a manticore if all you can see is a missile and not the hull.

CountCyrus wrote:
Where do you draw line of sight from the manticore missiles? From the tip? From any part? Center of the rack?

Secondary question: since the rack is moveable, can its height be adjusted ingame? Like turning a tank turret.

Thirdly: can you fire at a manticore if all you can see is a missile and not the hull.

First: You measure from the tip of the weapon.

Secondary: THe missile system isnt turret mounted - its hull mounted so your target has to be within 45 degree firing arc

thirdly: weapons are not hull. You have to see the hull to fire at it.

 Mywik wrote:

CountCyrus wrote:
Where do you draw line of sight from the manticore missiles? From the tip? From any part? Center of the rack?

Secondary question: since the rack is moveable, can its height be adjusted ingame? Like turning a tank turret.

Thirdly: can you fire at a manticore if all you can see is a missile and not the hull.

First: You measure from the tip of the weapon.

Wrong - you measure along the weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

CountCyrus wrote:
Where do you draw line of sight from the manticore missiles? From the tip? From any part? Center of the rack?

Secondary question: since the rack is moveable, can its height be adjusted ingame? Like turning a tank turret.

Thirdly: can you fire at a manticore if all you can see is a missile and not the hull.

First: You measure from the tip of the weapon.

Wrong - you measure along the weapon.

Was what i meant. Although thanks for clarifying.

Along the weapon? They basically point up. How's that supposed to work? Along the same train of thought, how would my bassie ever draw Los? It definatley points up.

And I didn't mean turn the missile I meant using the built in height adjustment onthe mounting.

One of the page mentions that a weapon can move vertically up to 45 degrees, sadly I am not at my rule book and can not give you the exact page, even if the model can not make the adjustments. You can do a quick check through the vehicle firing section of the book, it is on the same page as the diagrams explaining vehicle firing arcs so you should be able to find it even without a page number. Unfortunately it is a single line berried in the paragraphs, followed by the one which sets hull weapons as a 45 degree firing arc, so you might have to read through this page a few times to find it.

To be honest though: this line creates a lot more questions then it answers. However it does give you president to measure from some other point then along the length of the weapon if it involves some sort of change in vertical firing arch. This line states if you can not move the model's weapon in that direction, you still have permission to treat the weapon system as if it can rotate up to 45 degrees vertically, which would mean being able to draw a firing line to something above and below you as long as it isn't outside of that 45 degree arch. Now when you figure out if that is 22.5 up and down, or 45 degree up and down, please feel free to inform us all as it is one of the many unanswered questions....

PS: I thought Manticores where barrage, which do not require direct line of sight, so even if you can't get a line to the target you still have permission to fire.

This is true. Though you do not get to subtract the vehicles BS if you do not have LoS.

Also true.

Sadly the question you put forth really doesn't have a good answer and we still are in the dark about a lot of the mechanics. The Manicore are a good example of the problem but there are some better ones, like that poor excuse for a tank which the sister of battle use which has all it's guns pointed 90 degree upwards. To my knowledge, that weapon is not barrage nor is it skyfire, so the angle it has renders it completely pointless as the only thing it can hit is flyers, which it can't hit very well. It is clear these weapons are meant to have a purpose, but the rules simply do not allow them to function as they currently are written. Throw on top of that the question of how any flyer is able to shoot at ground targets as they too would be bound by the 45 degree fire arch, 22.5 if it works very much like the hull based horizontal, and your left with a real big problem as you could have weapons you never could fire because the minimal range is greater then the maximum!

It is clear these rules where written without taking the third dimension into account....

My advise: Talk to your opponent about how you wish to handle the cluster-mess that is weapons that do not point parallel to the ground. It is a weak answer, something that should only be provided in the direst of times if your on a Rules As Written forum, but it is the best answer I can give. It wouldn't be a far fetched concession to allow these weapons to fire at targets that would otherwise have easily been targeted by parallel-to-ground weapons with the same firing arch, and most of your opponents will probably agree.

Thanks for your answer. I think you and i are on the same page. I've never had a problem in a friendly game (so far) I was interested in how it is used for tournament play.


Let me rephrase my second question. If a weapon IS moveable. Can you move it? When?

If the weapon can pivot along it's mounting, you pivot the weapon (not the model) to point at what it is going to shoot at.

Note that this only applies to non-Walker vehicles.

I have prevented opp's from firing their hull-mounted LAscannons from a Venedtta directly below them at my models using the 45 degree rule and no on had the slightest problem with that.

However, I have noticed some players modeling their Flyers tilted even more downward to be able to shoot ground targets closer to the flyer's base. There the Rule of Cool kicks in IMHO because it looks badass and all the flyers are supposed to be close support Apache / A-10 wannabes.

I only own 1 flyer, Ork Shoota based, and my whenever I played it was almost out of range most of the time with its short 30" guns.

There should be a trade-off of guns versus bombs. Maybe a rule stating that hull mounted, non-bomb weapons on any flyer have a min range of 12" from the base of the flyer unless they are shooting at Zooming or Swooping models.

Agreed that there should be a better trade off that wouldn't penalize people for how their models are built, particularly penalizing them for building the model in a stock standard way.

Having a rule that forces you to use the smallest legal stem or position your model in such a way you can argue it is 45 arc from center, not 45 from ground, just to have a chance to fire your weapons is a clear problem. This is something play testing, and of course my favorite whipping boy: editors, should of caught on because it is something you will encounter with any army using flyers. The fact that very line also states you would 'Rarely' have to do this makes me wonder what they where thinking, as shooting from and to flyers is a vertical measurement every time, because it is far from rare. Makes me wonder, personally, if the rule was even meant to apply to flyers or if they where meant to have a more broader allowance then other vehicles.

Just another in the long line of questions we have not yet gotten an answer to, and more reason for me not to use anything but Heldrakes that by-pass it all by measuring from the base.

Here is a good example of the problem: Take a look at the Tau fighter when it has the optional missile launcher. The launcher itself is placed on the top of the craft, about the middle of the craft. While it is on a pivoting mount, the missiles themselves all point upwards at a rough 45 degree angle. This angle would mean, if measuring 45 from center of weapon and not ground, that the missile pods could only fire on a target if it is a flyer on a larger stem and very close to your flyer to begin with. Very nice for the main anti-vehicle weapon on a craft which states it is a key anti-air fighter to require the target to be point blank and above them....

thirdly: weapons are not hull. You have to see the hull to fire at it.

The Missiles on the launcher follow the same rules as a turret on a tank. If you can see even a tiny piece of a fin sticking up, you can shoot at the vehicle.

yeah, sounds crazy...but its cost me a few tourney games where the terrain was just barely shorter than the manticore.
TLoS can be a cruel mistress.

dkellyj wrote:
thirdly: weapons are not hull. You have to see the hull to fire at it.

The Missiles on the launcher follow the same rules as a turret on a tank. If you can see even a tiny piece of a fin sticking up, you can shoot at the vehicle.

yeah, sounds crazy...but its cost me a few tourney games where the terrain was just barely shorter than the manticore.
TLoS can be a cruel mistress.

The missiles are the weapon. You cannot draw LoS to a weapon.
Your TO was incorrect.