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 Grey Templar wrote:
Farsight is still alive however. That is enough to keep them together, because they are united behind their leader.

the Farsight Enclaves are also small compared to the Empire itself. the Empire has lots of Septs, and plenty of military leaders who would assert their own version of the Greater Good.

Farsight is actually a perfect example of why the Empire would fracture without the Ethereals.

If your assertion were correct, when Farsight's Ethereals were killed, he simply would have returned to the Empire. But he didn't.

Basically this would be my response back to Mezmerro. You are able to see what I'm saying quite easily, and beat me to the punch.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its from the older Tau codex which gives the following information.

How many "days" it takes for T'au to orbit its star.

How many "hours" there are in a T'au day(by giving how many "hours" a Tau needs to sleep)

And finally, it says how many minutes there are in a Tau "hour".

It also gave how many "years" a tau can live.

From all this information, you could figure out a Tau would live for around 40 Earth years. Ethereals would live longer but they weren't given a hard date.

Found the timekeeping section but it doesn't say anything about the average Tau lifespan, just that they spend more of their day awake than we do and that their planet is in a faster orbit.

IIRC that part is not in the timekeeping section. Its been a while since I looked it up and I don't have my old Tau codex with me.

I think I would like to see a rendition of the face of an Ethereal, or any other Tau for that matter, the first time they finally realize the scale of the other factions in the galaxy... whether that's the size of the Imperium, the age of the Eldar, the numbers of the Tyranid, the lengths the Necrons have gone to become what they are today, the brutality of the Orks or the cosmic weirdness of Chaos.

Just the look of that Tau experiencing a mind-blowing, pants-gakking revelation like that would be worth so very, very much.

The Ethereals know that the Imperium is huge. They'll have acquired data from all the planets they've conquered/negotiated away from it.

Also, they are fully aware of the brutality of the Orks and have a book published by Farsight on that subject.

As for the others, I'm sure they've got some inklings (except for the Necrons but nobody really knows anything about them but the Necrons themselves and possibly the Eldar).

If anyone here has played EvE, I can imagine the first Tau authority's face looking something like a new player looking at the galaxy map when they realized from their first Imperial world how big the territory is. Just kept on zooming out, and out, and out, oh look there's one section of the galaxy, keep zooming out, and out, and out, oh wow that's a lot of Imperial dots. Hey look there's our entire empire, that little tiny dot which is pretty much not visible anymore, zoom back in a bit there Johnny. . .

 Mezmerro wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
I don't think the Tau reproduce fast enough to be a threat in 50 years or even 500 years. They're cows, not rabbits, you know.

Their life cycle is 1.5 times shorter than human one, so they should reproduce 1.5 times faster.

That is not, at all, how reproductive cycles are determined. Knowing the life expectancy of a completely unrelated specie doesn't provide any useful data.

Well, it's stated on TVtropes that the higher-up Tau know just how HUGE the galaxy/Imperium is compared to their fledgling empire but keep it under wraps so it doesn't demoralize everyone. I don't know what source the troper got that from, though, if any.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
I don't think the Tau reproduce fast enough to be a threat in 50 years or even 500 years. They're cows, not rabbits, you know.

Their life cycle is 1.5 times shorter than human one, so they should reproduce 1.5 times faster.

That is not, at all, how reproductive cycles are determined. Knowing the life expectancy of a completely unrelated specie doesn't provide any useful data.

Yup, Elephants live about the same length of time as humans do, but their reproductive cycle is much longer. 2 year pregnancy compared to 9 months for starters.

Humans have a pretty long reproductive cycle for an animal of their size actually. Our young also have a much slower maturation rate.

I don't know how long it takes a Tau to reach adulthood, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was significantly faster than human.

Humans have the slowest maturation rate of any animal. It's probably what made us human.

 Vaktathi wrote:
(making the 30 sent against them basically the briefest of afterthoughts)

Imprium sent everyting it can and something it cannot into Cadia defence during 13-th BC, which is only 1320 regiments, gathered throughout entire galaxy. This leave some almost areas unguarded, so entire subsectors and sectors fall under Ork, Tranid, Necron and occasional Tau attacks. Which might tell you that while having millions of regiments Imperium have quite a few to spare as it constantly wages wars against everything (unceluding itself).

Cyten wrote:

Not to mention their rationalist and inclusive philosophy of Greater Good which I really like, they are like the Star Trek Federation, only better.

Wrong; they're 19th Century Imperialists IN SPAAACE!!!

Not all that different from the Imperium's Imperial Japan IN SPAAACE!!! Except that Humans are in charge of Humans in the Imperium, and not aliens.

To OP: In the long run the Tau are probably in a much lighter part of the gray zone than almost everyone else, and that is their merit. But , like every faction in 40k, they have their flaws.

Firstly is their social problems which are similar in nature to the Imperium's in nature. Both are a form of totalitarian government they just gloss it over. (I'd like to note that when you look at Star Trek from a more objective view the Federation becomes much more questionable and a double standard appears fast (though this shows how amazing of an indoctrination and propaganda program they have) and it is incredibly similar to the Tau's). However, in an age where issues like this are completely inconsequential due to a galaxy wide martial law decree, this is a very small issue as you just have to choose your injustice.

Secondly if their production ability. While they are apparently able to field a much higher density of high tech things than the IoM when you think about it a bit this is only logical. The reason is logistics. If I have a small force I can shell out much more per soldier than if I have a larger one.

As was pointed out earlier, A fire warrior is equipped, and trained, in a similar manner to an elite man in the imperial guard. And, fire warriors form the bulk of the Tau military while Stormtroopers are an elite troop. That being said if we run the math (below) we find that Stormtroopers are more abundant than Fire Warriors. (If anyone wishes to provide me with more accurate numbers I will, of course, replace and recalculate as my numbers are rather vague due to lack of proper sources). I am being generous to Tau (to the extent of my knowledge) to make the math easier and for arguments sake.

Earth Population (7,000,000,000) Average conscriptable population {20%} Stormtrooper to Guardsman Ratio [1/1,000,000] Tau held worlds <100> Imperial worlds |1,000,000|

Tau- (7,000,000,000) x <100> = 700,000,000,000 x {0.2} = 140,000,000,000 140 million Fire Warriors

IoM- (7,000,000,000) x |1,000,000| = 7,000,000,000,000,000 x {0.2} = 1,400,000,000,000,000 / [1,000,000] = 1,400,000,000 14 billion Stormtroopers (1.4 quadrillion Guardsmen)

One would note that the Stormtroopers outnumber Fire Warriors 10 to 1 (and the normal Guardsmen outnumber the Fire Warriors 10 million to 1) however these numbers are probably very far off in favor of the Imperium.

 laginess wrote:
-snip-

Basically, it boils down to something resembling the Pacific War, with the Tau being the Japanese and the Imperials being the Americans.

Assuming the IOM were able to focus their entire might on the Tau, sure.

But this is a universe of Black Crusades, Waaaghs, Hive Fleets, Hrud Migrations, Heresies, Civil Wars, Red Harvests and a hundred thousand other threats. Because of this, the near limitless numbers of the Imperial Guard are stretched thin.

Yes, the Imperium could bring enough to bear to stomp the Tau flat in a decisive way, but in so doing, they let something else go unchecked. Indeed, the effort required to destroy the Tau might be enough to allow a far more lethal threat to deal massive, perhaps even fatal, damage to the Imperium.

As it is now the Tau are relatively minor in their direct threat and they actually keep the local Orks, Tyranids and Necrons occupied. I wouldn't be surprised if ol' Calgar was propping up the Tau a bit so that he doesn't have to worry about another hive fleet coming for McRaggie for a while. Hence the Battle Brothers in the Allies Matrix.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think I would like to see a rendition of the face of an Ethereal, or any other Tau for that matter, the first time they finally realize the scale of the other factions in the galaxy... whether that's the size of the Imperium, the age of the Eldar, the numbers of the Tyranid, the lengths the Necrons have gone to become what they are today, the brutality of the Orks or the cosmic weirdness of Chaos.

Just the look of that Tau experiencing a mind-blowing, pants-gakking revelation like that would be worth so very, very much.

There is a bit like that in the old Last Chancers novel - where the sheer size of a hive worlds population is frantically dismissed as impossible by the Tau officer as he can't comprehend the scale of the Imperium.

The Tau are an interesting Xenos race and I wish GW would do more of them rather than keep spreading out their limited resources in all the wars.............

Also the Kroot likely know more about the size of the Imperium given their mercenary work - but then they keep a number of secrets from the Tau.

A full Crusade (which is highly unlikely) into the Tau sphere would shatter their Empire - it would be a brutal fight but IMO the Tau simply can't deal with the scale of a full invasion by the Imperium. Its notable that their Astartes "Battle Brothers" have hammered them a number of times recently with the only comprimise being that they were allowed to leave a world targeted by Exterminatatus as they had fought well aginst the Necrons.

A Chapter like the Raven Guard foccusing all their efforts on the Tau would also likely bring them to their knees as superior FTL technology coupled with hundreds of Marines carrying out raids on logistical and C+C centres would be virtually unstopable, combine that with a conventional invasion by the Imperial Navy and Guard supported properly by the Mechanicus and its all one way.

Of course thats not going to happen - in universe the Imperium can't spare the resources, out of universe GW are not going to kill off a race.

Its easier to let the Orks and Tryanids occupy them - bit like Inquisitor Vail allowing the Tau to retrieve their wounded as a act of good faith - so sad she did not mention they were infected by Genestealers

 Mr Morden wrote:


A full Crusade (which is highly unlikely) into the Tau sphere would shatter their Empire - it would be a brutal fight but IMO the Tau simply can't deal with the scale of a full invasion by the Imperium. Its notable that their Astartes "Battle Brothers" have hammered them a number of times recently with the only comprimise being that they were allowed to leave a world targeted by Exterminatatus as they had fought well aginst the Necrons.

The Jericho crusade is a "full crusade" (it is in fact much larger than the Sabbat Worlds Crusade) and it has yet to overcome a single, but heavily reinforced sept. Of course, there are other reasons why the Vel'khan sept is still alive but i do not think that the "one crusade = vanquished Tau Empire" argument can be still uphold. The Tau species is highly united, technologicaly advanced and appears to have significant ressources at it's disposal. While the Tau Empire is no threat to the imperium as a whole, it certainly is a regional power that has to be taken seriously, at least by nearby imperial sectors.

The same went for the Japanese Empire back in WWII. And look how that ended...the Imperium would crush the Tau, no question. It'll just be very, VERY bloody.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The same went for the Japanese Empire back in WWII. And look how that ended...the Imperium would crush the Tau, no question. It'll just be very, VERY bloody.

As far as i know the United States didn't have to deal with Mexico, Canada and a revolting Texas all while trying to somehow defeat chaos Hitler
As far as we know, the imperium current lacks the free ressources (i think the bottleneck might actualy be transport ships ) to deal with the Tau without exposing other fronts, otherwise they would
have already done it. The Highlords aren't too squeamish about a bloodbath or two but they are fully aware that destroying one threat while allowing two others to go unchecked isn't wise.

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Chapter like the Raven Guard foccusing all their efforts on the Tau would also likely bring them to their knees

A single chapter going against Tau empire would do nothing but being killed to a man. During Damocles Crusade Farsight counter attack massacred almost half of the Fosts of Dorn chapter right on their drop site, leaving only apothecaries alive.

KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The same went for the Japanese Empire back in WWII. And look how that ended...the Imperium would crush the Tau, no question. It'll just be very, VERY bloody.

As far as i know the United States didn't have to deal with Mexico, Canada and a revolting Texas all while trying to somehow defeat chaos Hitler
As far as we know, the imperium current lacks the free ressources (i think the bottleneck might actualy be transport ships ) to deal with the Tau without exposing other fronts, otherwise they would
have already done it. The Highlords aren't too squeamish about a bloodbath or two but they are fully aware that destroying one threat while allowing two others to go unchecked isn't wise.

True...but what if they didn't have to? The only reason we have to work within the time frame of the 13th Black Crusade is because of GW's obtuse refusal to move the timeline forward. Once the situation over at Cadia calms down, and while the Orks and Tyranids are still busy duking it out (and both the Imperium and the Eldar are certain to make sure it stays that way), the brooding facade of the Imperial war machine could easily be turned on the Tau.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Chapter like the Raven Guard foccusing all their efforts on the Tau would also likely bring them to their knees

A single chapter going against Tau empire would do nothing but being killed to a man. During Damocles Crusade Farsight counter attack massacred almost half of the Fosts of Dorn chapter right on their drop site, leaving only apothecaries alive.

Is this new fluff - I need to pick up the new Tau Codexes at some point......I didn't say or mean direct attacks - I was looking at a Raven Guard style campaign - so totally ruthless hit and run tactics utlalising the shock effects and better FTL travel potential of the Astartes - targeting soft targets where possible - - probably going after their civilian population densities as primary targets on the way to prompt mistakes by the Tau Military, not so much dropping into the heart of Tau defences.

At KingDeath - where can I find more fluff on the Jerrico Crusade and why its doing so badly if it has that level of support - I assume that as its "larger than the Sabbat Worlds Crusade" it is lead by a Warmaster able to field mutiple full Titan Legions and large scale Astartes support as well as dozens of capital ships (against whom the Tau have major issues) and many Guard Regiments plus full Inqusuitorial and Ecclesiarchy assets?

 Mezmerro wrote:

A single chapter going against Tau empire would do nothing but being killed to a man. During Damocles Crusade Farsight counter attack massacred almost half of the Fists of Dorn chapter right on their drop site, leaving only apothecaries alive.

During the Zeist Campaign, Sicarius' "almost Chapter sized" force wiped the floor with the Tau to such an extend that Shadowsun had to rework her expansion plans and redirect her forces to attack the neighboring sectors instead of facing the Space Marines.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Cyten wrote:

Not to mention their rationalist and inclusive philosophy of Greater Good which I really like, they are like the Star Trek Federation, only better.

Wrong; they're 19th Century Imperialists IN SPAAACE!!!

Not all that different from the Imperium's Imperial Japan IN SPAAACE!!! Except that Humans are in charge of Humans in the Imperium, and not aliens.

Given the independence between the different parts of the Imperium due to it's decentralized government, the Imperium is probably closer to the Holy Roman Empire than Imperial Japan.

Also the Octarius war isn't really stopping either the Orks or the Tyranids, just some of them.

It is perhaps the largest conflict in the galaxy, but given the scale of the Orks and Tyranids...

 AtoMaki wrote:
During the Zeist Campaign, Sicarius' "almost Chapter sized" force wiped the floor with the Tau to such an extend that Shadowsun had to rework her expansion plans and redirect her forces to attack the neighboring sectors instead of facing the Space Marines.

And the best part of it, is that Tau allow them to beleive they force one million-sized 3-rd sphere army to flee to keep marines busy, while real 3-rd sphere army conquered the rest of the sector. Tau knew well that human armies work best together, so they did their best to separate them and suceeded. Mostly because of Sicarus' huge ego. I bet Calgar wouldn't be such a fool to believe even space marines can scare off the army one thousand times more numerous, unless this army is composed of grots alone (end even then it would be hardly believable).

 Mezmerro wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
During the Zeist Campaign, Sicarius' "almost Chapter sized" force wiped the floor with the Tau to such an extend that Shadowsun had to rework her expansion plans and redirect her forces to attack the neighboring sectors instead of facing the Space Marines.

And the best part of it, is that Tau allow them to beleive they force one million-sized 3-rd sphere army to flee to keep marines busy, while real 3-rd sphere army conquered the rest of the sector. Tau knew well that human armies work best together, so they did their best to separate them and suceeded. Mostly because of Sicarus' huge ego. I bet Calgar wouldn't be such a fool to believe even space marines can scare off the army one thousand times more numerous, unless this army is composed of grots alone (end even then it would be hardly believable).

It is unlikely the Imperial Guard's Warmasters and the Imperial Navy's Lord Admirals (who are ultimately the ones behind Imperial operations) are so naive. Considering the size of the Imperium, they would most likely do what the Russians did back in WWII - draw the Tau in with a fighting retreat, then crush them once their lines are stretched to the breaking point.

Now, some would say that Shadowsun isn't that stupid. And you're right, she isn't. But considering the limitations of Tau Warp technology and their small population (unless they start cloning themselves) this is going to be inevitable.

And if they do start getting 'too uppity', both the Eldar and the Necrons are probably going to take steps. Eldar may look down on Humans, but at least Humans are aware of the dangers out in the outer darkness, and understand the reality that all species must look to their own first. Not to mention Humans have psionic potential - it makes Humanity a better ally/tool against the resurgent Necrons unlike the 'blunt' Tau. And the Necrons are NOT going to be happy over some upstarts putting together another empire. Best to nip potential problems in the bud...

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
It is unlikely the Imperial Guard's Warmasters and the Imperial Navy's Lord Admirals (who are ultimately the ones behind Imperial operations) are so naive.

On the other hand, marines really do have massive egos. Sometimes enough so that other IoM forces will defer to their guidance in a particular theater of operations.

Did any more Necron Dynasties awaken in Tau space in the new codexes - both they and the Dark Eldar seemed to be harvesting the Tau now they were at levels to be noticed.......

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
During the Zeist Campaign, Sicarius' "almost Chapter sized" force wiped the floor with the Tau to such an extend that Shadowsun had to rework her expansion plans and redirect her forces to attack the neighboring sectors instead of facing the Space Marines.

And the best part of it, is that Tau allow them to beleive they force one million-sized 3-rd sphere army to flee to keep marines busy, while real 3-rd sphere army conquered the rest of the sector. Tau knew well that human armies work best together, so they did their best to separate them and suceeded. Mostly because of Sicarus' huge ego. I bet Calgar wouldn't be such a fool to believe even space marines can scare off the army one thousand times more numerous, unless this army is composed of grots alone (end even then it would be hardly believable).

It is unlikely the Imperial Guard's Warmasters and the Imperial Navy's Lord Admirals (who are ultimately the ones behind Imperial operations) are so naive. Considering the size of the Imperium, they would most likely do what the Russians did back in WWII - draw the Tau in with a fighting retreat, then crush them once their lines are stretched to the breaking point.

Now, some would say that Shadowsun isn't that stupid. And you're right, she isn't. But considering the limitations of Tau Warp technology and their small population (unless they start cloning themselves) this is going to be inevitable.

And if they do start getting 'too uppity', both the Eldar and the Necrons are probably going to take steps. Eldar may look down on Humans, but at least Humans are aware of the dangers out in the outer darkness, and understand the reality that all species must look to their own first. Not to mention Humans have psionic potential - it makes Humanity a better ally/tool against the resurgent Necrons unlike the 'blunt' Tau. And the Necrons are NOT going to be happy over some upstarts putting together another empire. Best to nip potential problems in the bud...

The Eldar seem to be rather fond of the Tau in the same way an old guy smiles at a little kid who's good at heart but is talking about all this new stuff that goes over the old guy's head. While when the old guy goes into his platitudes the kid just gives him blank stares.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Did any more Necron Dynasties awaken in Tau space in the new codexes - both they and the Dark Eldar seemed to be harvesting the Tau now they were at levels to be noticed.......

Tau have none less than Sautekh dynasty in like few steps from their threshold, though they still have a few imperial sectors as a buffer zone between them. Also one of their minor worlds was inactive tombworld and gone tomb"awakened" by Anrakyr the Traveler during their war against hive-fleet Gorgon - necrons first wipe all bugs and then cleanse the planet of all life.