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 Mezmerro wrote:

Did you just said that intellect and experience is NOT SO IMPORTANT for a warlord?

Spoiler:

Err, no, I did not just said that at all.

I put my money on the Swarmlord as always being the ultimate victor by virtue of being immortal. The Hive Mind can just keep creating more of him until it learns enough to beat whatever Primarch it is facing.

Primarch just has to be unlucky one time and he is dead forever.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
I put my money on the Swarmlord as always being the ultimate victor by virtue of being immortal. The Hive Mind can just keep creating more of him until it learns enough to beat whatever Primarch it is facing.

Primarch just has to be unlucky one time and he is dead forever.

Good point - Swarmy can play the long game

Swarmy vs Vulkan though?

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Swarmy vs Vulkan though?

If he couldn't kill him he'd just contain his body inside some expendable Kraken bioship while it still regenerate and propell the ship somewhere outside the Galaxy.

Thats assuming the Primarchs are unable to find a more permanent solution too.

Magnus - Kills swarmy, then cuts his essence off from the Hive Mind.
Night Haunter - Doesn't kill the swarmlord, just locks it up and tortures it for fun. Doesn't really care, he knows when he's gonna die anyway, so the swarmlord CAN'T kill him.
Perturabo - builds it a maze it can't ever escape
Guilliman - Puts the swarm lord in a stasis field

Then the evil primarchs all go demonified - so then they can't be killed either.

In 1 to 1 "fair" combat - definatelly. But the Swarmlord is a general first, and warrior second, so he wouldn't play fair. Many of the primarcht wasn't very bright and could be easily tricked into the trap, where they could be drowned in Carnifex bodies, or defoured by the Mawlock, so Swarmy wouldn't even need to step his hooves on the battlefield

HERESY! How dare you shed doubt on the tactical prowess of the Emperor's Sons!
No really, the primarchs are not supposed to be dumb, maybe a little rash.
on topic: I favor the primarchs, and also think that the adaptability of the Tyranids has limits, in that they are biological organisms. They Hivemind can adapt to a specifc foe by changing his creatures, but he can't just go "hmpf, to weak, multiply strength by one gazillion" and have a single gaunt dropkick a planet into another dimension. That's not how it works. On the other hand, the primarchs are the product of more than genetic science, they are made in a way that could, apparently, not be achieved naturally, not even by the Emperor. So while it is possibly that the Hivemind might have found critical weaknesses in each primarch, given enough time, it is also quite possibly that they cannot be bested if they are prepared to give it all in a fight.
Yes, i know, a certain primarch almost got himself one-shot by a non-Astartes sorcerer, but imho that was due to arrogance. He should have been to fast to hit...

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Thats assuming the Primarchs are unable to find a more permanent solution too.

Magnus - Kills swarmy, then cuts his essence off from the Hive Mind.
Night Haunter - Doesn't kill the swarmlord, just locks it up and tortures it for fun. Doesn't really care, he knows when he's gonna die anyway, so the swarmlord CAN'T kill him.
Perturabo - builds it a maze it can't ever escape
Guilliman - Puts the swarm lord in a stasis field

This all wouldn't work. The Swarmlord is not some phoenix lord or Grammaticus-esque perpetual human. He isn't "resurrected" in convenient sence but rater is remade, as his memory is constantly saved by the Hivemind. Hivemind don't need the previous Swarmlord dead to spawn new one. In fact, there is a chance Macragge Swarmlord is still alive, hibernating somewhere inside the south pole glaciers. To ultimately kill the Swarmlord you must eliminate the Hivemind, which means killing EVERY SYNAPSE CREATURE in the Universe. Thats tight, in theUniverse, not just in our Galaxy.

So why is the universe not upto it's neck in Swarmlords then?

If the hivemind can make more than one then whats to stop it making loads?
Where are the Swarmlord/Tervigon hybrids that poop out more Swarmlord/Tervigon hybrids?

Some how this turned into a discussion about Calgar fighting the Swarmlord, which is interesting, however, I was more interested in how the pre-heresy Primarchs would fair, based off their flluff. For instance I think Magnus the red would find a way to permanently kill the swarmlord while someone like Angron would easiliy be lead into a death trap laid by the tyranids and end up with his whole chapter distroyed.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
So why is the universe not upto it's neck in Swarmlords then?

Because Hivemind is all about being cost-effective. Creating the Swarmlord requires biomass, genetic material and time, which could be spent to make multiple hive tyrants. And most of the time Swarmlord-level tactical and strategical genius isn't required for a victory, so it is more effective to make those multiple Tyrants.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
So why is the universe not upto it's neck in Swarmlords then?

Because Hivemind is all about being cost-effective. Creating the Swarmlord requires biomass, genetic material and time, which could be spent to make multiple hive tyrants. And most of the time Swarmlord-level tactical and strategical genius isn't required for a victory, so it is more effective to make those multiple Tyrants.

I love the idea of the Hivemind on a budget.
Can't afford the good stuff all the time, has to make do.

But with the swarm lord being the most unkillable hardest thing ever created, surely it would still make more sense to retire the hive tyrant model completely. As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.
After all, it takes less effort to make a lasgun than a bolter and bolters aren't always needed to kill stuff - so why do the marines use them all the time?

Primarchs are greater than the Swarmlord in fluff - but as they didn't exist at the same time I don't think we'll ever find out who would have won according to GW, unless you fight a legion list with nids.
All the primarchs would have beat the swarmlord off the bat, it'd have to die and come back multiple times to beat even a single one.

In a one on one fight, all the Primarchs likely win. The Swarmlord is one nasty enemy, but he's been felled by warriors far less powerful than Primarchs (Calgar) in the fluff.

Now, in terms of strategy, I think the Swarmlord probably has an edge there against some of the Primarchs. As was mention, Angron would rush headlong into some huge Tyranid trap. He'd probably fight his way back out of it, but everyone but him would likely be dead, and the Swarmlord would be sitting in a chair somewhere doing a Mr. Burns pose saying "excellent."

A number of the rest though would probably be fine. Horus definitely, he'd slap around the Swarmlord like a toy and outmaneuver him too. For the rest, it's probably somewhere in between Angron and Horus.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

So why not just spam Swarmlords and cut down on the chaff?

That way total victory would be ensured

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

So why not just spam Swarmlords and cut down on the chaff?

So why not just clone Creeds/Calgars/Eldrads/Vects? You don't really need an army of generals, you need only one per army.
It is much more sencible to have a vast army of fast-produced recyclable gaunts and carnifexes rether than small army of Hive Tyrants, with each of them need months to hatch and therefore is almost irreplaceable in the short period of time, not to mention they rent as good at killing things as more simple models of the same price.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

But if its already got system restore points for the swarmlord that it can duplicate at will, then its already made most of the effort? Why would it not roll out improvements across all the tyranid fleets?
Have them all led by the swarmlord, it increases the odds of swift victory considerably and has a net gain on available biomass as a consequence?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

So why not just spam Swarmlords and cut down on the chaff?

So why not just clone Creeds/Calgars/Eldrads/Vects? You don't really need an army of generals, you need only one per army.

Becuase they don't have save points for their brain which they can just stick in a new body...

 Mezmerro wrote:

So why not just clone Creeds/Calgars/Eldrads/Vects? You don't really need an army of generals, you need only one per army.

The Swarmlord is more than a general though isn't it, much like the Primarchs.

It gets its talons dirty.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

But if its already got system restore points for the swarmlord that it can duplicate at will, then its already made most of the effort? Why would it not roll out improvements across all the tyranid fleets?
Have them all led by the swarmlord, it increases the odds of swift victory considerably and has a net gain on available biomass as a consequence?

Which was my chaff point, why even bother with Hive Tyrants, you might as well just upgrade them to the Swarmlord.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Have them all led by the swarmlord, it increases the odds of swift victory considerably and has a net gain on available biomass as a consequence?

Actually, it looks like all major hive fleets are lead by the Swarmlord when some major battles or campaighns happen. Unfortunatelly none of this major fights happen simultaneously, so we couldn't say if there are multiple Swarmrlords.

The Swarmlord has a separate conscience from the Hive Mind. The Hive Mind does this on purpose so the Swarmlord can provide a valuable second opinion on various matters.

If the Hivemind were to go around making too many multiple swarmlords, it'd risk having multiple creatures with a separate mind from the Hive Mind, and that's rather dangerous, I think. Some of them might start rebellions and become their own hive minds and other bad things.

So does that mean there's only one swarmlord?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

So why not just clone Creeds/Calgars/Eldrads/Vects? You don't really need an army of generals, you need only one per army.

The Swarmlord is more than a general though isn't it, much like the Primarchs.

It gets its talons dirty.

But its main purpose is to be a general. Yeah it is well armed and can kill most of the foes you can find in 40k in single combat, but its main weapon is it intelligence and experiences. The fact that it bested Calgar is secondary to the fact that it outmaneuvered his forces. A Primarch would stomp the SL in 1v1,.but why the SL would put itself in that situation, when it can throw several Bio-Titans or even a fully charged Doom of Malanthai at him?

I'd go with the Swarmlord by Table top, because NOTHING beats the Swarmlord in table top when he gets some nice biomancey powers (apart from mind shackle scarabs, but we don't talk about them...). Fluff wise I think the Swarmlord would lose, but It would definitely inflict major injuries onto most of the Primarches (Not sure how much of an effect SitW will have on Magnus) and Swarmlords can be replaced, Primarches can't.

Being that it is immortal, the Swarmlord simply needs to learn the weaknesses and strengths of the Primarch before achieving victory. It might take awhile, but let's remember the fact that the Swarmlord won't play 'fair'. It would probably attempt to weaken the Primarch first, maybe even loose some sort of Biotitian on him specifically built to counter the Primarch once he'd gained enough knowledge. Also, let's remember that it's main weapons (which are made from a material not from this universe) are backed with powerful psychic powers.

First time one on one combat? Probably not. But it's not impossible.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The Swarmlord has a separate conscience from the Hive Mind. The Hive Mind does this on purpose so the Swarmlord can provide a valuable second opinion on various matters.

If the Hivemind were to go around making too many multiple swarmlords, it'd risk having multiple creatures with a separate mind from the Hive Mind, and that's rather dangerous, I think. Some of them might start rebellions and become their own hive minds and other bad things.

This

The only reason the Swarmlord is so powerful on the tabletop is that he can roll on Biomancy and get Iron Arm. This wasn't intended when the Tyranid codex was created, so I'm not sure you should really include that into any comparison. If he was limited to his codex powers, he wouldn't be nearly as dominant as he is now.

 somerandomidiot wrote:
The only reason the Swarmlord is so powerful on the tabletop

Look at the forum section title. It's called "Background", not the "Tactics"
We're talking about Swarmlord's power from the fluff perspective

It would be an interesting development if the Hive Mind became so stressed that it built multiple swarmlords, and one of these for some reason went rogue. Why it would go rogue would be interesting to craft, and the aftermath would be very interesting to watch.

Consider that the Tyranids are possibly running from something even nastier than themselves. Maybe a Swarmlord comes to the conclusion that the war against the Imperium is detrimental to its goal of defeating that threat. They came to the galaxy to bolster their biomass to help in their war, but they've suddenly found themselves fighting on two fronts. More importantly, while they'd normally just replace their biomass, their new enemy is totally willing to blow up planets full of biomass, friend and foe alike, as a denial tactic. It's already doomed HF Leviathan, continuing onward with the same strategy could potentially deplete them if the Imperium proves self-destructive enough.

A Swarmlord realizes this, and throws up some less aggressive alternative. Maybe not something so wacky as an alliance, but perhaps something like waging a more guerilla war on the east instead of pushing westward where defenses are stronger.

The Hive Mind says "nope, going for the Emprah," and the Swarmlord breaks off with his own tyranids somehow.

I would like to see the HH Angron fight the swarmlord on the table... probs most likely an interesting fight...

Back on theme, imagine Swarmlord tricked one of the short-tempered primarchchs like Russ or Dorn to the trap. Not a lethal one, but one that cause the primarch to lose some scrap of skin or a finger, or just a few glasses of blood. Primarch eventually break free, but his genetic material is already delivered to the nearest malanthrope to decipher his DNA and use i's secrets to improve the Tyranids. Imagine the creatures, the Hivemind could create from the primarch DNA...

If tyranids had existed in 30k the heresy wouldn't have happened they'd be two busy fighting them