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The primarchs might have been made using chaotic magic. I'm not sure the Tyrannids would be capable of replicating that through DNA.

Tyrannids might also require a larger sample, maybe. It's not really elaborated on much but it's hard to imagine there being a point to preventing the Tyrannids from reaching the Bhargessi if all the Tyrannids needed was a scrap of skin in order to replicate the Bhargessi (especially since Bhargessi are a space-faring species that also has been kidnapped and transported by the Dark Eldar, etc. Good luck preventing the tyrannids from getting a scrap of that DNA!)

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm not sure the Tyrannids would be capable of replicating that through DNA.

They actually don't replicate, but rather use the parts they like to craft new species. Guard stain, engineered from the space marine DNA and Trope strain, engendered from Eldar NDA dont look like their "parent" species. And seeng as Tyranids was able to copy (and even improve) eldar "magic" in Zoantropes they could do something with the Primarch chaos bounded power.

They might be able to, but if Chaos is telling the truth about the primarchs (a big "If", I know), I wouldn't be surprised if the primarchs were a personal project by the gods themselves. That sort of thing would be quite difficult for the tyrannids to copy, I imagine.

Primarchs step on the large, aggressive bug........repeatedly..........and then relieve themselves on the corpse.
Not much of a fight if a marine can kill it in hand to hand.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The primarchs might have been made using chaotic magic. I'm not sure the Tyrannids would be capable of replicating that through DNA.

Tyrannids might also require a larger sample, maybe. It's not really elaborated on much but it's hard to imagine there being a point to preventing the Tyrannids from reaching the Bhargessi if all the Tyrannids needed was a scrap of skin in order to replicate the Bhargessi (especially since Bhargessi are a space-faring species that also has been kidnapped and transported by the Dark Eldar, etc. Good luck preventing the tyrannids from getting a scrap of that DNA!)

I agree, if the Primarchs were so easy to replicate from a few DNA samples, I feel like it would have been done already by either the Imperium or Chaos. The main thing that i think they would lack is the emperors power he endowed on them when he created him. Also there where irreplaceable machines and techniques from the golden era that could never be replicated. I think it would be literally impossible for the Tyranids to replicate a primarch.


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I think a genius tactical primarch like Gulliman would be smart enough to figure out what was going on after he killed the second stronger swarmlord and make a plane to track them down and eliminate them all. Even though the swaarlord is immortal making them still has a considerable cost and takes time

 Mezmerro wrote:
Back on theme, imagine Swarmlord tricked one of the short-tempered primarchchs like Russ or Dorn to the trap. Not a lethal one, but one that cause the primarch to lose some scrap of skin or a finger, or just a few glasses of blood. Primarch eventually break free, but his genetic material is already delivered to the nearest malanthrope to decipher his DNA and use i's secrets to improve the Tyranids. Imagine the creatures, the Hivemind could create from the primarch DNA...

Russ may be short tempered but not as a character flaw that interacts with his tactics, he would most inevitably do what was best to win. His short temper is more a a character trait of him being a titanic @$$&%#@ and a Space wolf #1, where Dorn's short temper stems from his pride and zeal which got him into sticky situations(Iron warriors maze) and a hand short.

BUT make no mistake, Russ is one of the most tactically sound/proven primarchs out there and would not let his temper get in the way of the job. Also factor in his chapter can apparently killing Primarchs, a Swarmlord would be bating practice.

Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

Necrons will stop and plot and cackle maniacly about their superiority.
Orks will just end up fighitng amongst themselves.

Chaos is kinda in the same boat. Minor victories but never allowed to reach too far.

 Grey elder wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:
Back on theme, imagine Swarmlord tricked one of the short-tempered primarchchs like Russ or Dorn to the trap. Not a lethal one, but one that cause the primarch to lose some scrap of skin or a finger, or just a few glasses of blood. Primarch eventually break free, but his genetic material is already delivered to the nearest malanthrope to decipher his DNA and use i's secrets to improve the Tyranids. Imagine the creatures, the Hivemind could create from the primarch DNA...

Russ may be short tempered but not as a character flaw that interacts with his tactics, he would most inevitably do what was best to win. His short temper is more a a character trait of him being a titanic @$$&%#@ and a Space wolf #1, where Dorn's short temper stems from his pride and zeal which got him into sticky situations(Iron warriors maze) and a hand short.

BUT make no mistake, Russ is one of the most tactically sound/proven primarchs out there and would not let his temper get in the way of the job. Also factor in his chapter can apparently killing Primarchs, a Swarmlord would be bating practice.

Oh god, the effects of booze. " ...can apparently killing primarchs...".

Also I would love to see Fulgrim trounce the Swarmlord since he can apparently punch a Avatar silly bare handed. Now factor that in with a sword that could possible eat the Swarm lords very soul and you have one primarch that could kill the Swarmlord for good.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

The problem is GW are terrible at writing about the damage they cause then defeated. 'Behemoth totally got swallowed by a ships warp drive explosion'. Well, that explosion would have swallowed half of the Ultima segmentum, since Tyranid fleets stretch out like a column of ants. They also complete glossed over the worlds lost, damage done to the defense forces aside from 'Ultramaines lost their veteran company'. Reading the Jormungandr, Gorgon and Kraken fluff in the 5th edition codex is the same. 'We beat them, hooray for us!' without anything about the actual destruction caused.

They need someone who has a better handle on writing 'losing victories', because that seems to be the running theme with Tyranids - you beat them but lose a lot of ground, then wait for the next fleet to hammer in again.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

Necrons will stop and plot and cackle maniacly about their superiority.
Orks will just end up fighitng amongst themselves.

Chaos is kinda in the same boat. Minor victories but never allowed to reach too far.

Luckily 40k is not a story, it is a setting, we are never going to know if the Tyranids end eating the Galaxy or if they fail.

In my opinion when it comes to 1 on 1 fights I'd say most of the Primarchs > the Swarmlord > Lorgar, Alpharius and Omegon.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think a genius tactical primarch like Gulliman

Guiliman was genius strategist and administrator, but not a tactician - he was good at making prebattle planes, but couldn't possibly match Horus, Alpharius or Fulgrim in making plans on the fly, if his first one went off the rails (like it usually happen in the battle, if your opponent commander isn't dumb).


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 Grey elder wrote:
Also I would love to see Fulgrim trounce the Swarmlord since he can apparently punch a Avatar silly bare handed. Now factor that in with a sword that could possible eat the Swarm lords very soul and you have one primarch that could kill the Swarmlord for good.

1) That sword now belongs to Lucius, and the daemon inside that sword is now trapped in the painting, so it cannot eat souls any more
2) Swarmlord resurrects through memory "save points". Hivemind didn't give e shіt about his soul (if he have one) - all it need is time and biomass to recreate him.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

The problem is GW are terrible at writing about the damage they cause then defeated. 'Behemoth totally got swallowed by a ships warp drive explosion'. Well, that explosion would have swallowed half of the Ultima segmentum, since Tyranid fleets stretch out like a column of ants. They also complete glossed over the worlds lost, damage done to the defense forces aside from 'Ultramaines lost their veteran company'. Reading the Jormungandr, Gorgon and Kraken fluff in the 5th edition codex is the same. 'We beat them, hooray for us!' without anything about the actual destruction caused.

They need someone who has a better handle on writing 'losing victories', because that seems to be the running theme with Tyranids - you beat them but lose a lot of ground, then wait for the next fleet to hammer in again.

Hm? I see your point with Behemoth, a bit handwaving there. But losses like the First Company are adressed, it took them a long time to rebuild them and they relied heavily on deathwatch tours to generate more combat experience. The truth is noone cares about IG and PDF losses


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 Mezmerro wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think a genius tactical primarch like Gulliman

Guiliman was genius strategist and administrator, but not a tactician - he was good at making prebattle planes, but couldn't possibly match Horus, Alpharius or Fulgrim in making plans on the fly, if his first one went off the rails (like it usually happen in the battle, if your opponent commander isn't dumb).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey elder wrote:
Also I would love to see Fulgrim trounce the Swarmlord since he can apparently punch a Avatar silly bare handed. Now factor that in with a sword that could possible eat the Swarm lords very soul and you have one primarch that could kill the Swarmlord for good.

1) That sword now belongs to Lucius, and the daemon inside that sword is now trapped in the painting, so it cannot eat souls any more
2) Swarmlord resurrects through memory "save points". Hivemind didn't give e shіt about his soul (if he have one) - all it need is time and biomass to recreate him.

Where do you get that “not a tactitian “ fluff from? The smurfs are not amused.

KhornedBeef wrote:
Where do you get that “not a tactitian “ fluff from? The smurfs are not amused.

Courage and Honor, Escrador war, Rites of war. Guoliman himself admited that while his plans are near perfect, they doens't assure victory against equally talented oponent. And on Calth, Nuceria and Escrador it take a significant time for him to adapt to enemy non-standard tactic, so he made mistakes where Horus, Fulgrim or Alpharious would not. But when it comes to strategy, not a tactic, few of the Primarchs could rival Rob.

KhornedBeef wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

The problem is GW are terrible at writing about the damage they cause then defeated. 'Behemoth totally got swallowed by a ships warp drive explosion'. Well, that explosion would have swallowed half of the Ultima segmentum, since Tyranid fleets stretch out like a column of ants. They also complete glossed over the worlds lost, damage done to the defense forces aside from 'Ultramaines lost their veteran company'. Reading the Jormungandr, Gorgon and Kraken fluff in the 5th edition codex is the same. 'We beat them, hooray for us!' without anything about the actual destruction caused.

They need someone who has a better handle on writing 'losing victories', because that seems to be the running theme with Tyranids - you beat them but lose a lot of ground, then wait for the next fleet to hammer in again.

Hm? I see your point with Behemoth, a bit handwaving there. But losses like the First Company are adressed, it took them a long time to rebuild them and they relied heavily on deathwatch tours to generate more combat experience. The truth is noone cares about IG and PDF losses

Being addressed and being emphasised are two different things. Losing half a fleet and the entire PDF of the sector is something it takes the Imperium decades to recover from. Losing the entire first company of a chapter, including Terminator suits, is irreplaceable. Losing half a dozen habitable worlds is massive inside one of your most defensible systems is massive, especially to morale.

"So the Ultramarines lost a company of dudes and some ships got fethed up, on to the next fleet description we go' isn't good fluff. I've got no problems at all on focusing on the defeat, but the osses suffered for that defeat is always handwaived away, when it should really be the focus of the description of the defeat.

They Tyranids were beaten at Macragge... (is where it basically ends in the current codex)
But lost the majority of a fleet, which will take decades, if not centuries to rebuild.
And lost half a dozen planets, including prized planets like the Paradise world of Prandia, causing a massive blow to the morale of the system.
And lost the entire veteran company of the Ultramarines including irreplaceable equipment like Tactical Dreadnought armour, as well as severe losses to the 3rd and 4th battle companies (did these even get mentioned in the 5th edition codex?).
And lost crippling amounts of PDF drawn in from multiple systems in the Ultima segmentum, destabilising the defense of the segmentum for decades while they are rebuilt and reinforcements drawn in from neighboring systems.
And still didn't destroy Behemoth entirely because the author was phoning it in and didn't realize how hive fleets worked, thinking one ships warp drive explosion would suck in a fleet trailing in from outside the galaxy.

 Mezmerro wrote:

KhornedBeef wrote:
Where do you get that “not a tactitian “ fluff from? The smurfs are not amused.

Courage and Honor, Escrador war, Rites of war. Guoliman himself admited that while his plans are near perfect, they doens't assure victory against equally talented oponent. And on Calth, Nuceria and Escrador it take a significant time for him to adapt to enemy non-standard tactic, so he made mistakes where Horus, Fulgrim or Alpharious would not. But when it comes to strategy, not a tactic, few of the Primarchs could rival Rob.

Hm, guess I need to read more. thx then

Concerning the losses vs. tyranids: I don't think the individual hive fleet was spread like this in this case, or is that mentioned anywhere? And TDA suits could have been salvagable after the battle. But otherwise, yeah, a bit lazy.

Try salvage a TDA battle suit after a Carnifex has ripped it open, or genestealers have got at it, or melted by warp lances. It would simply be easier to make new ones for the amount of time it would take to repair most of them. I do agree with the fact that Tyranid losses are very anti climactic apart from the battle for Lyanden (Which really made me feel the eldar where on the verge of extinction) as it all ends with kill the boss and you win syndrome. And I also agree that exploding a warp drive to win is VERY lazy writing (It happens a lot) APART from when Vect does it, he does everything with class.

The amount of primarchwank has increased to such stupid levels that nothing short of a tactical nuke would ever inconvenience one.
Because, as everyone knows, stupid invulnerable heroes are the most interesting ones, especialy if they are badly written.

I think Betrayer was really the culmination of that trend, lol.

Shot in the face with a plasma blastgun, and then stepped on by a Warhound Titan.

Minor injuries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mezmerro wrote:

KhornedBeef wrote:
Where do you get that “not a tactitian “ fluff from? The smurfs are not amused.

Courage and Honor, Escrador war, Rites of war. Guoliman himself admited that while his plans are near perfect, they doens't assure victory against equally talented oponent. And on Calth, Nuceria and Escrador it take a significant time for him to adapt to enemy non-standard tactic,

I dunno if you can really say that. Once Guilliman determines that it is indeed an attack, and not an accident, he is quick to respond and ultimately win the battle at Calth. The initial confusion wasn't an error, it was from the utter shock that one of his brothers would turn on him and attack. At the time of the Heresy, that was essentially unthinkable.

so he made mistakes where Horus, Fulgrim or Alpharious would not.

Except all three of them made many mistakes of their own over the course of the Heresy, at both the strategic, and tactical level.


Plus, citing Graham McNeill stories is always a big no-no. McNeill is a terrible writer of Space Marines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The initial confusion wasn't an error, it was from the utter shock that one of his brothers would turn on him and attack. At the time of the Heresy, that was essentially unthinkable.

*cough* II and XI *cough*

KingDeath wrote:
The amount of primarchwank has increased to such stupid levels that nothing short of a tactical nuke would ever inconvenience one.
Because, as everyone knows, stupid invulnerable heroes are the most interesting ones, especialy if they are badly written.

Yes, let's all vastly exaggerate what goes on in BL novels when in Codex Grey Knights there is a guy who literally comes back to life after dying. Over and over again. And people are freaking out over Primarchs surviving head trauma?

 Omegus wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
The amount of primarchwank has increased to such stupid levels that nothing short of a tactical nuke would ever inconvenience one.
Because, as everyone knows, stupid invulnerable heroes are the most interesting ones, especialy if they are badly written.

Yes, let's all vastly exaggerate what goes on in BL novels when in Codex Grey Knights there is a guy who literally comes back to life after dying. Over and over again. And people are freaking out over Primarchs surviving head trauma?

So, because Ward's fluff is realy bad it is ok for other writers to be equaly bad ( or even worse, perpetuals... *shudder*)?

It is always interesting that the Primarch complaint squad always attack their power level rather than anything that actually impacts the story.

"Oh but nothing can challenge them!"

Well they often are pit against other Primarchs, sufficient heavy weaponry to inconvenience them, or Daemons (Like the one that put Sanguinius in a coma for half of Fear to Tread).

DogofWar1 wrote:
It would be an interesting development if the Hive Mind became so stressed that it built multiple swarmlords, and one of these for some reason went rogue. Why it would go rogue would be interesting to craft, and the aftermath would be very interesting to watch.

Consider that the Tyranids are possibly running from something even nastier than themselves. Maybe a Swarmlord comes to the conclusion that the war against the Imperium is detrimental to its goal of defeating that threat. They came to the galaxy to bolster their biomass to help in their war, but they've suddenly found themselves fighting on two fronts. More importantly, while they'd normally just replace their biomass, their new enemy is totally willing to blow up planets full of biomass, friend and foe alike, as a denial tactic. It's already doomed HF Leviathan, continuing onward with the same strategy could potentially deplete them if the Imperium proves self-destructive enough.

A Swarmlord realizes this, and throws up some less aggressive alternative. Maybe not something so wacky as an alliance, but perhaps something like waging a more guerilla war on the east instead of pushing westward where defenses are stronger.

The Hive Mind says "nope, going for the Emprah," and the Swarmlord breaks off with his own tyranids somehow.

*cough* halo *cough*

 the shrouded lord wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
It would be an interesting development if the Hive Mind became so stressed that it built multiple swarmlords, and one of these for some reason went rogue. Why it would go rogue would be interesting to craft, and the aftermath would be very interesting to watch.

Consider that the Tyranids are possibly running from something even nastier than themselves. Maybe a Swarmlord comes to the conclusion that the war against the Imperium is detrimental to its goal of defeating that threat. They came to the galaxy to bolster their biomass to help in their war, but they've suddenly found themselves fighting on two fronts. More importantly, while they'd normally just replace their biomass, their new enemy is totally willing to blow up planets full of biomass, friend and foe alike, as a denial tactic. It's already doomed HF Leviathan, continuing onward with the same strategy could potentially deplete them if the Imperium proves self-destructive enough.

A Swarmlord realizes this, and throws up some less aggressive alternative. Maybe not something so wacky as an alliance, but perhaps something like waging a more guerilla war on the east instead of pushing westward where defenses are stronger.

The Hive Mind says "nope, going for the Emprah," and the Swarmlord breaks off with his own tyranids somehow.

*cough* halo *cough*

How is that Halo?

The tactic of scorched earth has existed for some time. Warhammer 40,000 has had such tactics going on for some time.

The Swarmlord exists as a stress response of the Hive fleets to enemies that are hard to beat. More so than with other Hive Tyrants if the Swarmlord is killed it adapts and becomes more dangerous. Something that is very important to note is the Swarmlord's purpose is to ensure that the swarm is able to feed upon the target world or worlds. The presence of the Primarch may not be it's primary concern as far as targets are concerned. Angron for example is less into strategy and more into body count. Personal combat and success is of no interest to the Swarmlord or any Tyranid. It may simply let the Primarch die fighting it's swarms and concern itself with other matters.

However if the Tyranids appeared pre-heresy it is very likely there may not of been a Horus heresy. The heresy was largely brought about because of a lack of external threats to the Imperium. The huge legions of Marines roaming around needed something to fight so they chose each other. If the Tyranids had invaded there would of been far fewer chances to plot and scheme rebellion.

"Consider that the Tyranids are possibly running from something even nastier than themselves. Maybe a Swarmlord comes to the conclusion that the war against the Imperium is detrimental to its goal of defeating that threat. They came to the galaxy to bolster their biomass to help in their war, but they've suddenly found themselves fighting on two fronts. More importantly, while they'd normally just replace their biomass, their new enemy is totally willing to blow up planets full of biomass, friend and foe alike, as a denial tactic. It's already doomed HF Leviathan, continuing onward with the same strategy could potentially deplete them if the Imperium proves self-destructive enough. "
This bit

Hive fleet Leviathan has only been temporarily slowed by destroying planets, not doomed. The size and strength of Leviathan is such the Imperium does not have enough strength to stop it fully. In addition the Imperium has already concluded that destroying planets to stop the Tyranids isn't working. First the Tyranids likely have more hive fleets than the Imperium has planets to sacrifice, if the Imperium continues that way the Imperium will exterminatus itself into exitinction. There is the additional problem of reaching the worlds under attack, the shadow in the warp often prevents this. Also many exterminatus fleets are destroyed by the Tyranids before they can carry out their work, this renders the biomass denial strategy largely ineffective.

Secondly the Imperium controls only a tiny number of the worlds in the galaxy, it is simply the largest and most widespread of the galaxy's empires. The Imperium cannot hope to locate and either protect or destroy even a small number of the worlds out there. In other words the galaxy is for the most part easy meat.

Fighting the Tyranids and winning has always been a case of the galaxy's inhabitants human and alien forming a unified front, this is unlikely to happen. There is unlikely to be an enmey the Tyranids are fleeing from, they have already consumed about a dozen galaxies. Also the current Tyranid swarms in the galaxy are just the vanguard for the main Tyranid force that is yet to arrive.

 Leech wrote:
Hive fleet Leviathan has only been temporarily slowed by destroying planets, not doomed. The size and strength of Leviathan is such the Imperium does not have enough strength to stop it fully. In addition the Imperium has already concluded that destroying planets to stop the Tyranids isn't working. First the Tyranids likely have more hive fleets than the Imperium has planets to sacrifice, if the Imperium continues that way the Imperium will exterminatus itself into exitinction. There is the additional problem of reaching the worlds under attack, the shadow in the warp often prevents this. Also many exterminatus fleets are destroyed by the Tyranids before they can carry out their work, this renders the biomass denial strategy largely ineffective.

Secondly the Imperium controls only a tiny number of the worlds in the galaxy, it is simply the largest and most widespread of the galaxy's empires. The Imperium cannot hope to locate and either protect or destroy even a small number of the worlds out there. In other words the galaxy is for the most part easy meat.

Fighting the Tyranids and winning has always been a case of the galaxy's inhabitants human and alien forming a unified front, this is unlikely to happen. There is unlikely to be an enmey the Tyranids are fleeing from, they have already consumed about a dozen galaxies. Also the current Tyranid swarms in the galaxy are just the vanguard for the main Tyranid force that is yet to arrive.

I feel that nothing express better how big the Tyranid menace is like the Silent King stating that a united Necron race may not be enough to stop the Tyranids.

 Leech wrote:
Hive fleet Leviathan has only been temporarily slowed by destroying planets, not doomed. The size and strength of Leviathan is such the Imperium does not have enough strength to stop it fully. In addition the Imperium has already concluded that destroying planets to stop the Tyranids isn't working. First the Tyranids likely have more hive fleets than the Imperium has planets to sacrifice, if the Imperium continues that way the Imperium will exterminatus itself into exitinction. There is the additional problem of reaching the worlds under attack, the shadow in the warp often prevents this. Also many exterminatus fleets are destroyed by the Tyranids before they can carry out their work, this renders the biomass denial strategy largely ineffective.

Secondly the Imperium controls only a tiny number of the worlds in the galaxy, it is simply the largest and most widespread of the galaxy's empires. The Imperium cannot hope to locate and either protect or destroy even a small number of the worlds out there. In other words the galaxy is for the most part easy meat.

Fighting the Tyranids and winning has always been a case of the galaxy's inhabitants human and alien forming a unified front, this is unlikely to happen. There is unlikely to be an enmey the Tyranids are fleeing from, they have already consumed about a dozen galaxies. Also the current Tyranid swarms in the galaxy are just the vanguard for the main Tyranid force that is yet to arrive.

Quite so. A Hive Fleet can even be smashed in battle and reduced to a few stragglers that limp away. if those surviving ships happen across a system with a few edible worlds and no sentient presence (or space-faring presence) then in just a few short years the fleet could grow from a few ships to dozens of Hive Ships and attending space-swarms. Their ability to renew their forces outstrips even the Orks...