Switch Theme:

What has the game devolved into? [Bit of a rant]  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





There is precedence for this in the fluff.


40k fluff sure has gotten gak of late.

Whats next? IoM, Eldar and Tau unite against the united Orks + Chaos Gods + Tyranids?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Dakkamite wrote:
There is precedence for this in the fluff.


40k fluff sure has gotten gak of late.

Whats next? IoM, Eldar and Tau unite against the united Orks + Chaos Gods + Tyranids?


As opposed to "back in the day" when Ultramarines actually had an half-Eldar Chief Librarian?

   
Made in ca
Confessor Of Sins





 Dakkamite wrote:
There is precedence for this in the fluff.


40k fluff sure has gotten gak of late.

Whats next? IoM, Eldar and Tau unite against the united Orks + Chaos Gods + Tyranids?


Isn't the Fantasy version of that basically the plot of Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning?

But for 40k, I'm sure we'll see something about the Adepta Sororitas teaming up with the World Eaters (?) to fight the Daemons of Tzee- Wait, no, the Chaos gods are apparently chummy enough to work together amicably these days. That won't work.

I'm out of ideas.
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Dakkamite wrote:
There is precedence for this in the fluff.


40k fluff sure has gotten gak of late.

Whats next? IoM, Eldar and Tau unite against the united Orks + Chaos Gods + Tyranids?


Jeeze, stuff that came from 2nd edition Warhammer 40k had precedent for alliances between some groups. It sounds like a load of sour grapes here that most people are thinking of the mechanics first.

I mean you want to see crazy stuff? Used to be Half-Eldar/Space marine hybrid that was a powerful psyker for the Ultramarines.

Not to mention the IoM DID team up with Tau vs Tyranids (Ultramarines anyways), they were enough of a threat that they did it not to mention the Ultramarines know the horror that the Tyranids can Inflict, not to mention Ork Mercenaries that work for IoM or Chaos (Oooh so surprising, despite Freebooters being in since 2nd edition!)

Get over it.
   
Made in ca
Confessor Of Sins





To be honest, I'm kinda surprised that Eldar and Human DNA (or whatever Eldar have) is compatible. But, I guess with the technological advancements, his parents may have found a way to make it happen.
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Pouncey wrote:
To be honest, I'm kinda surprised that Eldar and Human DNA (or whatever Eldar have) is compatible. But, I guess with the technological advancements, his parents may have found a way to make it happen.

The Eldar were made by the Old Ones and the Old ones may have gotten their scaley hands on our ancestors gene codes as they sought more cannon fodder for their war effort, there are hints of them meddling with Earth millions of years ago after all. It may not be that out there.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

Some cross-species genetics wouldn't be all that spectacular.

Far less impressive (and far less involved), in comparison, than turning a human (or half-Eldar) into a Space Marine ! (and post-birth at that).

   
Made in at
Been Around the Block





Regarding OP:

See that army composition as traitor space marines, the emperor taught you to purge the xenos ... so do it, including those heretics!
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





dlight wrote:
Tau and C:SM are battle brothers..... Do you understand what you just said and how ridiculous that is? Surely that has to be a mistake on GW's part? If not, it is nothing more than a massive cash grab.



When you consider how many Tau players are buying up space marine codexes and marine models for allies, and vice versa, doesn't sound ridiculous at all.

Also the fluff justification for the Ultramarines / Tau bro-ment is actually pretty good. They basically joined up to beat back a tyranid invasion that neither could have defeated alone. I willl grant you that battle brothers is kinda stretching it.

Most of the Allies table is a marketing / sales strategy to sell more models, with the side affect that you can use more models you own in the same game without playing Apoc. While there are some funktacular ally interactions, lots of people like allies in general and buy more models because of it.

-- Haight

 daedalus wrote:

I mean, it's Dakka. I thought snide arguments from emotion were what we did here.


 
   
Made in ca
Confessor Of Sins





 Kain wrote:
 Pouncey wrote:
To be honest, I'm kinda surprised that Eldar and Human DNA (or whatever Eldar have) is compatible. But, I guess with the technological advancements, his parents may have found a way to make it happen.

The Eldar were made by the Old Ones and the Old ones may have gotten their scaley hands on our ancestors gene codes as they sought more cannon fodder for their war effort, there are hints of them meddling with Earth millions of years ago after all. It may not be that out there.


Yeah, okay, maybe, but those millions of years of genetic drift... It's not like they plucked a 30th millennium or even 20th century human and changed a bit here and there.

I mean, a lot of species on Earth today have got to have closer evolutionary trees than humans and Eldar, and they can't create viable offspring, or often any offspring at all.

And Zweischneid, these are species from different planets. Is it really that easy with 41st millennium technology to force those two genetic codes together and not only create a life form, but a viable person?

Edit: And then to make that person into a Space Marine? Supposedly all that stuff won't work on a female of the same species, but it's going to somehow work on a creature that's half-alien?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/13 11:32:04


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Honestly the relationship between the Space Marines and the less aggressive xeno's like Eldar and Tau is similar to the USA's relationship with Russia or China. Not much open conflict but a lot of contention and occasional allying.

The Eldar consider Humans as a tool to achieve their goals or a roadblock in their wa depending on the situation. If the Eldar were a real problem to the Imperium they would have started an all out invasion of the remaining craft worlds long ago. They just don't like or trust Eldar. Same with the Tau. Their first interactions were not positive because both sides had a very exacting ethos to their culture and government. It didn't mix. At some point they put their axes down and try to figure out how to handle each other.

RIght now Tau and the Imperium are probably in a mild cold war stance.
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





spamthulhu wrote:
Honestly the relationship between the Space Marines and the less aggressive xeno's like Eldar and Tau is similar to the USA's relationship with Russia or China. Not much open conflict but a lot of contention and occasional allying.

The Eldar consider Humans as a tool to achieve their goals or a roadblock in their wa depending on the situation. If the Eldar were a real problem to the Imperium they would have started an all out invasion of the remaining craft worlds long ago. They just don't like or trust Eldar. Same with the Tau. Their first interactions were not positive because both sides had a very exacting ethos to their culture and government. It didn't mix. At some point they put their axes down and try to figure out how to handle each other.

RIght now Tau and the Imperium are probably in a mild cold war stance.


It helps that the Imperium doesn't know what the Eldar does half the time. Like for example causing the Second and Third Armageddon war.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Zweischneid wrote:
 Dakkamite wrote:
There is precedence for this in the fluff.


40k fluff sure has gotten gak of late.

Whats next? IoM, Eldar and Tau unite against the united Orks + Chaos Gods + Tyranids?


As opposed to "back in the day" when Ultramarines actually had an half-Eldar Chief Librarian?


+1 to that brother

Anyone who complains that army X would never ally with army Y need to read up on some REAL history.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

 gossipmeng wrote:
It is pretty clear that there are two types of 40k players:
1. The competitive player who looks for ridiculous combinations of units to make the most broken list possible. These players are looking at just the numbers and rules - nothing else.
2. The semi-competitive players/fluff bunnies: these players will use units they like/fluff lists and fully accept that they are not the most optimized armies.
When people complain about balance and the game "devolving into madness" it is a prime example of why players in groups 1 and 2 should not mix. I prefer the fluff and refuse to use certain units because I feel as though they are too silly..... but I don't expect every other player out there to have fun the same way as me.

Pretty much boils down to this (including the way it was worded).

I have a friend that is the #1 type, the other three of us are #2 and yet the competitive guy keeps calling me out as TFG.
I think it is that when I play him I sharpen my pencil a bit so he does not get to steamroller like he usually does (plus he keeps expecting fluff bunny opponents).
In his mind he may have thought that he did not "fully" optimize so held back slightly and was rewarded with a stronger fight on his hands.

What it comes down to is when these two groups mix they have to agree to a "no-holds-barred" warfare or "as per the fluff" armies prior to army selection (I try carefully to get a middle ground).

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

dlight wrote:
I played a game on vassal this evening. My opponent ran a competitive list composed of roughly the following:

Tau with Space Marine allies
Tigirius was joined to a rip tide
A Tau commander was joined to a unit of Centurions.

STOP! This just makes zero sense. I understand he was trying to cheese things out and find the most broken combo possible, but give me a break.

These were Ultramarines allied with Tau. What happened to the emperors directive to purge the xenos?

I would be ashamed to run this army, and I am a very competitive player that loves tournaments.

In addition to the above, he threw a fit because we agreed that a ruin in the middle of the board BLOS at the beginning of the game. Turn 2 I moved 2 of my monstrous creatures into the ruin, and
he suddenly tried to unload on them. And yes, terrain doesn't have to be impassable to BLOS.


This seems to me a serious ''My way is the way to play'' syndrome. Marines and Tau are battle brothers, so they can ally and join each others units. That's how GW interpret THEIR fluff in THEIR game. We have literally no choice in that. Live with it or don't, but don't 'Throw a fit' and rant about it because someone else is playing to the full extent of the rules. You say your a competitive player, yet shun his attempts at competitive play (Its not even that competitive, Tigirius isn't that good for points and neither are Centurions, tau suits do it better) and blatantly brush off entire codex's of being OP (You said so about Tau) which is simply wrong. Effective, not OP, the use of the word OP is for whiners and 'Butt-Hurt' unless they are referring to something against the rules or at least bending them.

Everyone has there own right to play how they like with what they like, get used to it.

 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Peregrine wrote:
. If you were counting on being able to move models into this magic terrain feature you should have explicitly agreed up front that models could enter it and be 100% protected since this is not a situation that could happen in a tabletop game.


Actually it is a situation that can happen in a tabletop game.

a ruined building with no doors or windows is still a ruined building and you can move through the solid parts by default with a DT test.

This can happen with that top building in the pic posted. Not saying that it will every time, Just saying that there is a chance and it can happen.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

 Pouncey wrote:
To be honest, I'm kinda surprised that Eldar and Human DNA (or whatever Eldar have) is compatible. But, I guess with the technological advancements, his parents may have found a way to make it happen.


The character they're talking about is from an era when 40K was basically a fantasy game, in space. So the idea of having a powerful half-elf isn't that unusual.

Of course, twenty years of development later, and the IoM is a specist gak-hole of "Space Nazis" that has both coined and defined "grimdark", and such things aren't germane to the setting anymore.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Psienesis wrote:
 Pouncey wrote:
To be honest, I'm kinda surprised that Eldar and Human DNA (or whatever Eldar have) is compatible. But, I guess with the technological advancements, his parents may have found a way to make it happen.


The character they're talking about is from an era when 40K was basically a fantasy game, in space. So the idea of having a powerful half-elf isn't that unusual.

Of course, twenty years of development later, and the IoM is a specist gak-hole of "Space Nazis" that has both coined and defined "grimdark", and such things aren't germane to the setting anymore.

There are still Half-Eldar/Human Hybrids in Commorragh if memory serves, and it may not be out of the question on fringe worlds where Rangers come and go or Humans don't bother Exodites overmuch.

I'd assume that those born of Dark Eldar almost exclusively are born out of rape, while a ranger or exodite would probably be more...consensual.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in ca
Confessor Of Sins





 Psienesis wrote:
 Pouncey wrote:
To be honest, I'm kinda surprised that Eldar and Human DNA (or whatever Eldar have) is compatible. But, I guess with the technological advancements, his parents may have found a way to make it happen.


The character they're talking about is from an era when 40K was basically a fantasy game, in space. So the idea of having a powerful half-elf isn't that unusual.

Of course, twenty years of development later, and the IoM is a specist gak-hole of "Space Nazis" that has both coined and defined "grimdark", and such things aren't germane to the setting anymore.


Makes sense.

I think the IoM needs more hugs. But that's my solution for everything. It works pretty well. If they like hugs, then they feel better. If they don't like hugs, well, then they're a bunch of meanies, and hugs are a suitable punishment since they don't like them.

Also, is it normal for the digital "grit" of the pixels to blend with the various dirty parts of my monitor and form an ornamental green pattern in this text entry window, which I don't notice at first but vanishes when I do notice and try to study it?

Maybe I need sleep.
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles




 Kain wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
 Pouncey wrote:
To be honest, I'm kinda surprised that Eldar and Human DNA (or whatever Eldar have) is compatible. But, I guess with the technological advancements, his parents may have found a way to make it happen.


The character they're talking about is from an era when 40K was basically a fantasy game, in space. So the idea of having a powerful half-elf isn't that unusual.

Of course, twenty years of development later, and the IoM is a specist gak-hole of "Space Nazis" that has both coined and defined "grimdark", and such things aren't germane to the setting anymore.

There are still Half-Eldar/Human Hybrids in Commorragh if memory serves, and it may not be out of the question on fringe worlds where Rangers come and go or Humans don't bother Exodites overmuch.

I'd assume that those born of Dark Eldar almost exclusively are born out of rape, while a ranger or exodite would probably be more...consensual.


I take it you aren't very familiar with Dark Eldar fluff?
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight






 Kain wrote:
I'd assume that those born of Dark Eldar almost exclusively are born out of rape, while a ranger or exodite would probably be more...consensual.


Most Dark Eldar begin life in a cloning tank. Those that are born normally are often more privileged.

Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000

My avatar 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

We're only told that Commoragh has a lot of "hybrids" in it. What, exactly, they are hybrids of is not made clear. We can assume, obviously, that Dark Eldar are one half of the equation... but the other half? Not spelled out.

Also, given the lengths to which they've studied genetic sciences, these hybrids might not be the results of sexual intercourse. They could be vat-grown as experiments in chimeric cloning.

We just don't know.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator





Florida, USA

I stopped playing at the entrance of flyers, but now as more books come out, and flyers become less potent I am starting to feel like getting back into it. I personally allied Space Marines with Tau before EITHER of them got a new book... and I did it because I had the models to do it.

Hardcore WAAC gamers take a wiz on fluff all the time because the game (As GW continues to preach) was not meant to be competitive. It was meant to be fun, which is easily forgotten by most hardcore gamers.

I always have played fluffy, and fluff doesn't have to mean that two armies can't ally. There is always a story to be written of two enemies joining to fight the greater threat. As was stated earlier, if you're hardcore and want to play against other hardcore players, don't go searching for fluffy lists.

You don't see da eyes of da Daemon, till him come callin'
- King Willy - Predator 2 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

There is a pic back in Rogue Trader (I think ) that has several humans and an obvious Eldar overseeing a tactical battlefield screen, as if they are all in a war room together. Precedent.



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




i've 'only' been into 40k for about 13 years and as far as i can tell the imperium's attitude towards xenos is the same as it is now.

They don't trust the eldar in the slightest, but then they don't seem to be a threat. Eldar are unlikely to burst into a star system and start wrecking gak up, so the imperium just ignores them really, especially since they would be very tricky to track down, if not outright impossible.

Regarding the tau, i actually remember when tau were created as a race, there was a short story in white dwarf about a space marine emmisary visiting a tau city. He didn t like it very much but the imperium clearly don't view the tau in the same way that they view orks or nids, and not only because of their size.

The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan





Scotland

 Talizvar wrote:


3) Read carefully some of the wording on the psychic powers, sometimes the wording states it has to be a SM model or allies, tripped up a guy who was using eldar powers on DE to 2+ inv re-rolls (1 in 36 to fail) till we looked at the target information better.


Casting Fortune on an Archon (Or any Dark Eldar unit for that matter) is perfectly legal. Meaning that a 2++ re-rollable is perfectly legitimate.

Iranna.

 
   
Made in no
Stealthy Grot Snipa





 AegisGrimm wrote:
There is a pic back in Rogue Trader (I think ) that has several humans and an obvious Eldar overseeing a tactical battlefield screen, as if they are all in a war room together. Precedent.


There's also the Ordo Malleus (which, by the way, used to be the inner circle of the Inquisition, not the Daemon Department) Inquisitor who tattooed a hydra on his face and galavanted across the galaxy with his Squat buddy and a Daemon, boning Imperial Assassins, convincing Space Marine Captains to leave their battle brothers to come with him to hang out with the Eldar on Ulthwe, before finally traipsing off to Terra for a chat with the Emperor.

You can say a lot of things about the 40k universe, but not that it has a restrictive background.

"The Emporer is a rouge trader."
- Charlie Chaplain. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




demons can get a re rollable 2++ without needing spells, if we're bragging.

Or they can make a mob of 20+ demons with a 3++, re rolling 1s which is pretty badass.

The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

 Iranna wrote:
Casting Fortune on an Archon (Or any Dark Eldar unit for that matter) is perfectly legal. Meaning that a 2++ re-rollable is perfectly legitimate.
Iranna.
NO this was in the prior codex not the newest he was VERY wrong at the time.

Please review the exact wording for "Fortune" in this new codex if it says "friendly model/unit" this is not good, if it says "Eldar model/unit" all is well.

In the prior codex they made a point of clarifying in the FAQ only an Eldar Army unit or model can be cast on, not a DARK Eldar, they are a separate army.

I do not have the NEW codex but would be very surprised they changed that.


A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Talizvar wrote:
I do not have the NEW codex but would be very surprised they changed that.


Well, prepare to be surprised. The new codex very clearly says "friendly unit".

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: