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Made in us
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





 fuusa wrote:
 Mulletdude wrote:
Except combat squads are decided before warlord traits are even rolled, so he would only have a 5-man unit to join.

I don't see a problem with the timing, it seems to me, a clear exception.
The choice to combat squad, includes the option to not do it as well, so he can join a full strength unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Coyote81 wrote:
That makes even less sense. If he's not part of the unit at time of deployment, if does not have infiltrate.

The rules as they stand prevent an ic from joining a unit to infiltrate if 1 part does not have the usr.
Shrikes rule, gives him the option to avoid the normal requirements for joining a unit, ie he is already joined before being deployed with them.


True, but once they combat squad, he's not part of the unit anymore. Sothe half that does not have him, won't have infiltrate rules for deployment.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander








So, RAW.....it does not say that Shike may only ever join Jump Infantry, just that before deployment, he may only join JI.

So if I deploy a unit of terminators or devastators or tacticals normally on the table, DURING deployment, can I then join Shrike with them?

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

Sure. But they're not Infiltrating, just to be sure.
   
Made in gb
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




no idea

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Sure. But they're not Infiltrating, just to be sure.

Just to be sure ...
Shrike joins a 10 man ji unit before deployment.
The unit decides to combat squad, forming 2 units, shrike can only be in one of them, so that one benefits from his usr, not the other one.

You wart-ridden imbeciles! 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

Correct.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






 fuusa wrote:
 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Sure. But they're not Infiltrating, just to be sure.

Just to be sure ...
Shrike joins a 10 man ji unit before deployment.
The unit decides to combat squad, forming 2 units, shrike can only be in one of them, so that one benefits from his usr, not the other one.


Except the only way to join a unit is by being deployed in coherency with it (page 39) or by holding the unit in reserve.

Since the squad does not have Infiltrate, it can only be deployed as normal, and Shrike can be attached to it then.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

Shrike has a special rule allowing him to join a squad before deployment.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

No he has a special rule restricting him to joining Jump units before deployment. As in being in Reserves.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

Reserves happen at deployment.

"'When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

Shrike's rule comes beforehand.
"Before deploying, he may only join squads of jump Infantry."

Bolding added for emphasis.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/14 19:57:12


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Right, and if Shrike is in Reserves, is he deployed?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

No.

The question is if "Before deploying" is before the deployment step or before Shrike's deployment in particular. The rule is too obscure for the the latter to be true and thus is meant to restrict who he can join in reserves. Before the deployment step is the simpler answer.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Not sure I agree with you 100%, but I believe we both can agree that GW needs to pull their heads out of their and hire some better proof-readers.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 Happyjew wrote:
Not sure I agree with you 100%, but I believe we both can agree that GW needs to pull their heads out of their and hire some better proof-readers.


To be fair, it's an easy mistake while writing the book. If the writers know what they mean, and the play testers know how the rule is supposed to work, then it is easy to read the rule as pretty clear.

The only way to fix things like that are to have a red team read the books while trying to break them to find stuff like that.
   
Made in be
Kelne





That way,then left

 Happyjew wrote:
Not sure I agree with you 100%, but I believe we both can agree that GW needs to pull their heads out of their and hire some better proof-readers.

I wish I could disagree with you, but you're absolutely right .
I'd even say GW needs to hire proof-readers at all ...
   
Made in gb
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




no idea

 Happyjew wrote:
No he has a special rule restricting him to joining Jump units before deployment. As in being in Reserves.

Under normal circumstances, ic's cannot join units before army deployment, which is being referred to here, as combat squads are declared before this, not shrike alone.
Combat squads is a general rule entirely independent of reserves.
Shrikes rule circumvents the normal ic joining procedure to allow him to join a unit in a (possibly) unique way.

He joins a unit before army deployment, not by being deployed with and not by being declared part of a unit that is not deployed, ie placed into reserves.

You wart-ridden imbeciles! 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot






 Coyote81 wrote:
 fuusa wrote:
 Mulletdude wrote:
Except combat squads are decided before warlord traits are even rolled, so he would only have a 5-man unit to join.

I don't see a problem with the timing, it seems to me, a clear exception.
The choice to combat squad, includes the option to not do it as well, so he can join a full strength unit.


True, but once they combat squad, he's not part of the unit anymore. Sothe half that does not have him, won't have infiltrate rules for deployment.


That's what I was getting at with my comment. Sorry for not being clear about it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/15 08:26:29


 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






 fuusa wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
No he has a special rule restricting him to joining Jump units before deployment. As in being in Reserves.

Under normal circumstances, ic's cannot join units before army deployment, which is being referred to here, as combat squads are declared before this, not shrike alone.
Combat squads is a general rule entirely independent of reserves.
Shrikes rule circumvents the normal ic joining procedure to allow him to join a unit in a (possibly) unique way.

He joins a unit before army deployment, not by being deployed with and not by being declared part of a unit that is not deployed, ie placed into reserves.


Except that if this were true, then it would apply to all units, not just combat squadded ones. And we've gone over ad nauseam that Shrike can only join units already on the table with no restriction, or units held in reserve.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

General Hobbs wrote:
And we've gone over ad nauseam that Shrike can only join units already on the table with no restriction, or units held in reserve.


What?? The consensus of this thread regarding Shrike's rule is that Shrike has a special exception to the general rules of ICs joining units.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in gb
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




no idea

General Hobbs wrote:
 fuusa wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
No he has a special rule restricting him to joining Jump units before deployment. As in being in Reserves.

Under normal circumstances, ic's cannot join units before army deployment, which is being referred to here, as combat squads are declared before this, not shrike alone.
Combat squads is a general rule entirely independent of reserves.
Shrikes rule circumvents the normal ic joining procedure to allow him to join a unit in a (possibly) unique way.

He joins a unit before army deployment, not by being deployed with and not by being declared part of a unit that is not deployed, ie placed into reserves.


Except that if this were true, then it would apply to all units, not just combat squadded ones. And we've gone over ad nauseam that Shrike can only join units already on the table with no restriction, or units held in reserve.

Yes, of course it does.
The purpose of this rule, is to get a model with the infiltrate usr, into a unit before it is deployed on the table, to allow it to infiltrate.
This happens at the same time period as combat squadding.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
General Hobbs wrote:
And we've gone over ad nauseam that Shrike can only join units already on the table with no restriction, or units held in reserve.


What?? The consensus of this thread regarding Shrike's rule is that Shrike has a special exception to the general rules of ICs joining units.

He does, but doesn't have to use it.
He could join a unit of scouts when infiltrating, for eg.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/16 06:10:04


You wart-ridden imbeciles! 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






 Elric Greywolf wrote:
General Hobbs wrote:
And we've gone over ad nauseam that Shrike can only join units already on the table with no restriction, or units held in reserve.


What?? The consensus of this thread regarding Shrike's rule is that Shrike has a special exception to the general rules of ICs joining units.


Lol We must be reading different posts in this thread. Shrikes rule is simply a prohibition on whom he can be joined to, not a permission to join a unit and then infiltrate with it.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in gb
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




no idea

Its is exactly that, though.

Shrike joins a unit of jump infantry before deployment.
During army deployment, that squad contains a model with the infiltrate usr, therefore that unit can infiltrate.

That's the purpose of the rule.

You wart-ridden imbeciles! 
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

General Hobbs wrote:
Lol We must be reading different posts in this thread. Shrikes rule is simply a prohibition on whom he can be joined to, not a permission to join a unit and then infiltrate with it.
Three people agreeing with each other is not a 'general consensus'.
I read it clearly as a permission.
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets



Right behind you...

I read it as a clear case of permission (restricted by the 'only Jump Infantry' clause)...

Armies in my closet:  
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






 fuusa wrote:
Its is exactly that, though.

Shrike joins a unit of jump infantry before deployment.
During army deployment, that squad contains a model with the infiltrate usr, therefore that unit can infiltrate.

That's the purpose of the rule.


Not to be insulting, but I suggest consulting someone who might have a better grasp of the language. I have a law degree and an English degree and I've consulted an English professor and a professional journalist on this.

Keep an open mind....just because you want it to be a certain way does not make it so.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

General Hobbs wrote:

Not to be insulting, but I suggest consulting someone who might have a better grasp of the language. I have a law degree and an English degree and I've consulted an English professor and a professional journalist on this.

Keep an open mind....just because you want it to be a certain way does not make it so.


Well, I have three doctorates in English, and I'VE consulted the US PRESIDENT, as well as several key members of Parliament, and THEY all agree with ME!

See how appeals to your own authority don't really work? You either need to make a compelling argument, or not. But no one here can actually know whether you've done all those things, or whether you're a hobo under a bridge, madly typing on a website about a game he knows nothing about.
There are two sides to this, but so far I've only seen one mildly convincing point from the side that Shrike isn't an exception, and that was Insainak's.
In my mind, the wording of the rule gives permission for Shrike to break the normal rules. And I also have an English degree, and have consulted a grammarian about this rule. So

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in fk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

But unfortunately you are being insulting. You're speaking American English, the book is British English. So your English Degree and English Professor are only worth the words written on this page as we only have your word on that.

Shrikes rules are written so that you have the option of infiltrating Shrike with a unit of JI. An option not available to any other SC/IC as of this time. The rule as currently written is ambigious at best and the FaQ not much better, and so the fall back is the previous precedents which is he can infiltrate with a non-infiltrating unit.

I suggest that you re-read your last line and apply it to yourself as well.

Cheers

Andrew

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/18 01:23:06


I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in gb
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




no idea

General Hobbs wrote:


 fuusa wrote:
Its is exactly that, though.

Shrike joins a unit of jump infantry before deployment.
During army deployment, that squad contains a model with the infiltrate usr, therefore that unit can infiltrate.

That's the purpose of the rule.


Not to be insulting, but I suggest consulting someone who might have a better grasp of the language.

Insulting? Not really, but it depends exactly what you're talking about.
If its my interpretation of the RAW, then I think you are simply wrong.
If, on the other hand, it references "Its is exactly that, though" then you are correct, as that may be THE most horrendous sentence "I ever did have writtenisationed, ever."

General Hobbs wrote:
I have a law degree and an English degree and I've consulted an English professor and a professional journalist on this.

Very well, but, I would ask you to take apart what I have said and point out where its wrong, because no-one has done that.

General Hobbs wrote:
Keep an open mind....just because you want it to be a certain way does not make it so.

To implicate that I don't have an open mind, would suggest that you believe me to have some particular interest in this subject.
Not-true.

I play eldar, chaos marines and renegade guard.
Never seen, or know anyone with a raven guard army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AndrewC wrote:
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Then "lang may yer lum reek" pal!!!
That'll get me told off for spelling again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 17:03:35


You wart-ridden imbeciles! 
   
Made in fk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

Nah fuusa, thats perfect Scottish. Just wait till I start writing in Glaswegian!

Cheers

Andrew

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander








My bad, I misread Shrike's rule, it does not say before deployment, it says before deploying, which is different. This means you only have access to deployment options that occur during the deployment phase of the game. Which is....being joined to a squad on the table or being placed in reserve.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
 
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