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So a Drop Pod lands, and a command squad armed with grav guns gets out. Now, they moved, so they can only fire a single shot. But if they are shooting at a Raider with Night Shields, then at what range do they fire? Are their grav guns fired at a range of six inches (The 18 inches of the gun minus 6, then divided in half) or are they instead fired at a range of 3 inches? (The 18 inch range divided in half, then minus 6 inches for the Night Shields)

I know how the order of operations would work if we were dealing with characteristics in an infantry profile, but I wasn't a thousand percent positive that you could apply the same logic to weapon characteristics.

Should be under Multiple Modifiers, page 2 I think

The weapons range (which is reduced by 6") didn't change when using half range. A Bolter still has a range of 24" when you double-tap.

Not sure how it applies for grab guns, as I don't play marines or have that codex.

But that order for modifiers is standard mathematics. Always multiply or divide, then add or subtract, then set values. Unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Though like Happy implied, if you are allowed to shoot and you wound, wounds can be applied all the way out to the max range of the squad.

There is no multiplication or division involveds

Night Fields affect the range of the weapon, i.e. 18" in the case of grav-guns.

So the grav-gun has a shorter range. If the model firing it moved he can only fire up to half the max range. That does not change what the range of the weapon is.

 Happyjew wrote:
There is no multiplication or division involveds

Night Fields affect the range of the weapon, i.e. 18" in the case of grav-guns.

So the grav-gun has a shorter range. If the model firing it moved he can only fire up to half the max range. That does not change what the range of the weapon is.

How does it not change the range? Night Shields explicitly reduce the range. Grav guns already have an 18 inch range before Night Shields come into play. (And they reduce it a further six inches.) Since the Salvo rules mean that you can only fire if you move at half the weapon's max range, is the range of the moving salvo shot when fired at a Night Shielded vehicle three inches or six inches? Or are you saying that the Night Shields will have no effect on the shot at all? Sorry Happyjew, I'm just not picking up what you're putting down.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There is no multiplication or division involveds

Night Fields affect the range of the weapon, i.e. 18" in the case of grav-guns.

So the grav-gun has a shorter range. If the model firing it moved he can only fire up to half the max range. That does not change what the range of the weapon is.

How does it not change the range? Night Shields explicitly reduce the range. Grav guns already have an 18 inch range before Night Shields come into play. (And they reduce it a further six inches.) Since the Salvo rules mean that you can only fire if you move at half the weapon's max range, is the range of the moving salvo shot when fired at a Night Shielded vehicle three inches or six inches? Or are you saying that the Night Shields will have no effect on the shot at all? Sorry Happyjew, I'm just not picking up what you're putting down.

I believe what he is saying is that only being able to fire at half range doesn't change the weapons listed range-the grav gun still has a 18" range, but can only fire up to 9". The DE Night Shield reduces the weapons range from 18" to 12", and you can fire up to half of that. So 6" range.

_e

^ This.

Page 63 – Night Shields.
In the second sentence, change “reducing the range of enemy
units” to “reducing the range of the weapons of enemy units”.

What is the range of a Grav-gun when firing on the move (ignoring special rules/wargear for the moment)?

That's fine. I don't play those armies to know the specifics of how those rules apply.

The way he worded the question, do both penalties effect the range a weapon can fire at?

Like do night shields subtract 6" from the range a weapon can fire at, but moving also halves the range it can fire? If this is the case the modifier order implies the grav guns can only fire if targets are within 3".

Like you said though, wounds can be taken out to the max, just like with rapid firing bolters.
I'm not trying to debate the rules, just understand the ones being discussed as I think I'll be facing a lot if grav guns in the comming weeks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
^ This.

Page 63 – Night Shields.
In the second sentence, change “reducing the range of enemy
units” to “reducing the range of the weapons of enemy units”.

What is the range of a Grav-gun when firing on the move (ignoring special rules/wargear for the moment)?

If I understand right.

Moving grav guns could fire at 9".

So then if shooting at night shields it would be 3". (9"-6")

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


If I understand right.

Moving grav guns could fire at 9".

So then if shooting at night shields it would be 3". (9"-6")

The range of the gun is 18, not 9.

Salvo does not make the gun's range halved, it fires at half its range (which is still 18" even when moving)

Never mind. I see what you are saying.

The "range" on a grav gun is 18" whether it moved or not.
So grav guns would have a range of 12" (18-6)
But they could only fire if the target is within 9" (18/2).

Am I reading you right?

No, they'd only be able to fire if the target is within 6", as the range of the Gravgun is now 12".

You might be right due to the way its worded.

Normally when two things are modifying the same attribute, you divide first, then subtract. Which in this case would make it 3".

But by it saying it reduces the range of the weapon by 6", that means you have to subtract before you divide for the 1/2 range. Making it 6" like you said.

I don't mean to be all over the map on this topic. I'm wanting to understand this rule set rather than debate it. Grav guns are going to be all the craze for the next few months.

Steel-WOLF, 4 questions:
1. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary?
2. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move?
3. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary and under the effect of the Night Field?
4. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move and under the effect of the Night Field?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You might be right due to the way its worded.

Normally when two things are modifying the same attribute, you divide first, then subtract. Which in this case would make it 3".

But by it saying it reduces the range of the weapon by 6", that means you have to subtract before you divide for the 1/2 range. Making it 6" like you said.

I don't mean to be all over the map on this topic. I'm wanting to understand this rule set rather than debate it. Grav guns are going to be all the craze for the next few months.

You can look at it as (range)/2
Since the range of a grav gun is 18" and night shields reduce range of the weapon (grav gun in this case) by 6", and firing a grav gun on the move fires at half the range,
what we get is (18"-6")/2 = (12")/2 = 6"

_e

 Happyjew wrote:
Steel-WOLF, 4 questions:
1. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary?
2. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move?
3. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary and under the effect of the Night Field?
4. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move and under the effect of the Night Field?

Not him, but:

18"
9"
12"
6"

I see what you're trying to do, but it doesn't work that way. " A model armed with a Salvo weapon can move and fire at a target up to half its maximum range away." The maximum range of a Salvo weapon on a Night Fielded target is 12", so the move and fire distance is 6".

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Steel-WOLF, 4 questions:
1. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary?
2. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move?
3. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary and under the effect of the Night Field?
4. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move and under the effect of the Night Field?

Not him, but:

18"
9"
12"
6"

I see what you're trying to do, but it doesn't work that way. " A model armed with a Salvo weapon can move and fire at a target up to half its maximum range away." The maximum range of a Salvo weapon on a Night Fielded target is 12", so the move and fire distance is 6".

And you would be half correct.


Similar example. What is the range of a boltgun when firing 2 shots?

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Steel-WOLF, 4 questions:
1. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary?
2. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move?
3. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary and under the effect of the Night Field?
4. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move and under the effect of the Night Field?

Not him, but:

18"
9"
12"
6"

I see what you're trying to do, but it doesn't work that way. " A model armed with a Salvo weapon can move and fire at a target up to half its maximum range away." The maximum range of a Salvo weapon on a Night Fielded target is 12", so the move and fire distance is 6".

Not sure if I'm interpreting what Happyjew said how he meant it, but I think the point he was making is:

18"
18" (Only fired up to 9")
12"
6"

The range doesn't change because you moved, which I think is what Happyjew was trying to say.

_e

The rule in the codex says that the reduction in range is use for working out distances for rapid fire, melta effects and so on, so if they can only fire at things that are 9" away if they've moved, that range would then be reduced by 6".

Not sure why we're working off the 18" range since that's not the one we're using if they've moved.

 Happyjew wrote:
And you would be half correct.
Similar example. What is the range of a boltgun when firing 2 shots?

"A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away."

Thus 12", or 9" under the effects of a Night Shield.

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:
The rule in the codex says that the reduction in range is use for working out distances for rapid fire, melta effects and so on, so if they can only fire at things that are 9" away if they've moved, that range would then be reduced by 6".

Not sure why we're working off the 18" range since that's not the one we're using if they've moved.

There's not a split profile.

The reason we're working off 18" is the rules say you fire at up to half the range, not that the range is halved. Night Fields reduce the range: A bolter would be 24", night fields make it 18", half of which is 9". Meltaguns are 12", night fields make it 6", half of that is 3", etc.

_e

EDIT: Ninjad

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
And you would be half correct.
Similar example. What is the range of a boltgun when firing 2 shots?

"A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away."

Thus 12", or 9" under the effects of a Night Shield.

Once you put that up there, which is something i use all the time, my brain woke up.

Yes, 6" range for Gravguns that have moved makes perfect sense.

 erick99 wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Steel-WOLF, 4 questions:
1. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary?
2. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move?
3. What is the range of the grav-gun when stationary and under the effect of the Night Field?
4. What is the range of the grav-gun when fired on the move and under the effect of the Night Field?

Not him, but:

18"
9"
12"
6"

I see what you're trying to do, but it doesn't work that way. " A model armed with a Salvo weapon can move and fire at a target up to half its maximum range away." The maximum range of a Salvo weapon on a Night Fielded target is 12", so the move and fire distance is 6".

Not sure if I'm interpreting what Happyjew said how he meant it, but I think the point he was making is:

18"
18" (Only fired up to 9")
12"
6"

The range doesn't change because you moved, which I think is what Happyjew was trying to say.

_e

Exactly! Which would mean your answer 4 is incorrect.

It's rather simple. Weapon has range "X". Rapid Fire, Salvo, Melta, etc. do not change this. No matter how far you can target with the weapon it still has a range of "X".
So the weapon has a range of 18". If fired on the move you can only fire at half-range. The weapon still has a range of 18" (this does not change). When targeting a vehicle with Night Shields, you reduce the *range* of the weapon. So instead of having a range of 18" it has a range of 12". If fired on the move, you can only fire at half range which does not change the range of the weapon.

 Happyjew wrote:
[

Similar example. What is the range of a boltgun when firing 2 shots?

Interesting. the range is still 24" but you get an extra shot if you have a target unit within half range, in this case 12". The effective, range of the weapon does not change.

We were correct. You're being needlessly pedantic.

HappyJew, are you trying to say that the Gravgun will still fire at 9" vs night shields? or that a rapid firing bolter will still fire at 12" vs night shields?

If not, i'm not sure what you're trying to say

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:
HappyJew, are you trying to say that the Gravgun will still fire at 9" vs night shields? or that a rapid firing bolter will still fire at 12" vs night shields?

If not, i'm not sure what you're trying to say

No, what he's saying is that the extra shot for a bolter, for example, is not at 12", it's at half the max range. The night shields make the max range different-a bolter becomes 18" range, half of which is 9"

No, I'm saying that the fired at up to half range changes the range of the weapon. A bolter has a 24" range. You can fire two shots if at half range (12"). The range of the bolter is still 24".

When you apply Night Shields, the range is reduced. Using the above example, a bolter has an 18" range. You can fire two shots if at half range (9" as the bolter only has a range of 18"). The range of the bolter is still 18".

Sorry, that's what i was meant to ask, but it sounds like we're (now) all in agreement about the outcome:

gravguns get 2 shots at 6" vs a night shield

it's just the exact wording of why that's the issue

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:
Sorry, that's what i was meant to ask, but it sounds like we're (now) all in agreement about the outcome:

gravguns get 2 shots at 6" vs a night shield

it's just the exact wording of why that's the issue

I'm confused. What is the issue?

The range does not change when you have an effect at half-range. The effect only applies up to half of the range but it does not change the range of the weapon.