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Hi Dakka,

I saw in the Horus Heresy book from Forge World that the Legiones Astartes army list are best played in point values between 1500 and 3000 (less should use standard 40k org chart, above should use Apoc rules).

Here's my question: Does this mean that if i choose a 2000 point army from the Heresy book and a friend picks 2000 points from the CSM codex (or any other codex), do either of us have a distinct advantage? Are the point values in the Horus Heresy Book One for each unit assigned so that those units can be compatible with standard 40k games or was the book designed to only fight battles against other "Heresy Era" armies?

I ask because i'd like to make a per-Heresy list but it wouldn't be worth it if I couldn't actually play it against my friends.

Thanks

The pre-heresy list will have a huge advantage.
It is designed to be played against other legion lists, it is totally unbalanced compared to a 40k Codex.

Having said that, give your opponent some extra points and have fun with it. I've played campaigns with my Orks against legions, and it is a lot of fun.
Give the Orks x3 the points and play a "last stand". Great fun.

The rules where designed to fight other 30,000 armies. Though the points and rules are fully compatible with 40k. Neither army should have a massive advantage in fact many tournaments allow the legion list just ban the Moritat as he's completely broken. At 2k you're allowed to bring Primarchs which again you may find puts you at a significant advantage (particularly Mortarian).

I think it won't mix well; sergeants can take artificer armour for 10 points for feths sake.

Wait until you come across a dirt cheap unit of x20 marines firing 80 Bolter shots in a single volley....
With an attached apothecary to boot!

I think for simplicities sake it sounds like it's probably best to pick a standard 40k codex and just use the cool Forge World models with them.

Thanks for the help

 grendel083 wrote:
Wait until you come across a dirt cheap unit of x20 marines firing 80 Bolter shots in a single volley....
With an attached apothecary to boot!

Oh yes, the scary unit of 20 marines which won't be able to fire next turn and can't take special weapons and can get sweeping advanced, SOOO scary

Also if you let 20 marines get within rapid fire range (where they can't move if they want to do Fury of the Legion) then you absolutely deserve it because it's very unlikely that will happen.

However, I will agree that past 1750 or so the Legion list really starts to shine. 2000+ it will be significantly better. Anything lower than 1500 and it is significantly worse.

The Legion list certainly has some tricks up its sleeve, but it often has to pay for them. Ten man squad full of plasma or melta sounds cool, until you realize it's over 300 points for those ten guys in power armor.

We allow legion lists in our club (they usually get swept too many times)... they're probably a little better than .500

It's okay if you don't take Primarchs or any Gods of War units ( intended for Apoc). Can be lots of fun actually.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/Betrayal_FAQ_Errata_v.2.pdf

Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World meant to be used in
games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks?
A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.
Designer’s Note: This means that while you are, of course, free to have fun and play games against
your friends using any forces you like, and Horus Heresy forces will be broadly ‘a fair fight’ with
Codex forces of the same scale, certain rules anomalies and inconsistencies may be thrown up that
you have to deal with, although these should not seriously affect the game in most cases. (For
example, certain units, such as those with the Stubborn special rule are at a premium costing in
Horus Heresy armies over their regular Codex counterparts, owing to the results of play testing
within their own sphere.)
In terms of using Lords of War and the Primarchs, however, these are definitely not intended to be
used in standard Warhammer 40,000 games, but only in games where both sides use the Age of
Darkness Force Organisation chart, and the specific provisions within, and in games of 2,000 points
or greater.
Designer’s Note: So if, for example, you wanted to play a battle representing a narrative where the
Sons of Horus Legion fought Orks or Eldar during the Great Crusade, you could quite easily use
those xenos forces’ Warhammer 40,000 Codexes (possibly house-ruled to accommodate larger
squads) to proxy for their Heresy-era counterparts. In this case, however, both sides should be using
the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, with the army’s own Apocalypse level units and flyers
available as Lords of War entries following the guidelines found on page 184 of Betray

Yeah as pointed out the more points you play the better the Heresy lists become. Because you are forced to field massed squads as you pay too much for the initial squad but extra bods are cheap. The list also has very little AA in it CSM are a terrible match up for the Legion list. Those 20 marines squads can't be in transports which means they are just Helldrake bait and they've nothing that can hurt the drake. Whilst DPs will go in kill and kill a squad a turn as they can be sweeping advanced.

10 points for Artificier Armour is amazingly cheap right? Well how much do Honourguard pay for their Artificier Armour? Given they are Vets with power weapons, boltguns and AA for 6 points more than a Vanguard Vet...

The list will do relatively well in an environment where everyone is a poor player. This is because the list forces you to take units with solo purpose (that squad of flamers can become a squad of plasma, but can't be a complete mess squad with one of each special weapon). This essentially forces you to have at least a semi decent list whilst your opponent has his devastator squad with lascannon, heavy bolter, plasma cannon and multimelta...

Play a few games, test it out, house rule some stuff.

E.g. the volkite weapons are a tad on the strong side.

Melta-imune Landraiders are just nasty.

Free AP4 weapons on Word bearers should probably cost a few points.

But most of the stuff is relatively well ballanced.

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:

Free AP4 weapons on Word bearers should probably cost a few points.

Hey is this a rumor from Massacre? I don't recall seeing any rules for the Word Bearers yet.

As has been stated, in a tournament environment it's up to the TOs. But in a friendly environment it's worth house ruling/modifying things to improve balance and ForgeWorld have made some recommendations relating to Orks and Eldar (Larger squad sizes) but if it's a friendly game you can work it out with your opponent.

If you happen to be playing Chaos, I recommend "Time Cop" rules. If your model ends up in base to base with his future self remove both and centre a large blast over the point they met

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:

Free AP4 weapons on Word bearers should probably cost a few points.

Hey is this a rumor from Massacre? I don't recall seeing any rules for the Word Bearers yet.

As has been stated, in a tournament environment it's up to the TOs. But in a friendly environment it's worth house ruling/modifying things to improve balance and ForgeWorld have made some recommendations relating to Orks and Eldar (Larger squad sizes) but if it's a friendly game you can work it out with your opponent.

If you happen to be playing Chaos, I recommend "Time Cop" rules. If your model ends up in base to base with his future self remove both and centre a large blast over the point they met

This is great! I could totally use that for fun.

Ezekyle Abaddon meet Abbadon the Despoiler, BOOOM!!

On topic, I played one game against a Legion list and my poor Eldar got battered.

It was the old codex though, I think the new one might have more of a chance.

I think 30k vs 40k can be balanced if the 40k player is given some extra points or able to take larger squads for cheap like the marines can.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah as pointed out the more points you play the better the Heresy lists become. Because you are forced to field massed squads as you pay too much for the initial squad but extra bods are cheap. The list also has very little AA in it CSM are a terrible match up for the Legion list. Those 20 marines squads can't be in transports which means they are just Helldrake bait and they've nothing that can hurt the drake. Whilst DPs will go in kill and kill a squad a turn as they can be sweeping advanced.

10 points for Artificier Armour is amazingly cheap right? Well how much do Honourguard pay for their Artificier Armour? Given they are Vets with power weapons, boltguns and AA for 6 points more than a Vanguard Vet...

The list will do relatively well in an environment where everyone is a poor player. This is because the list forces you to take units with solo purpose (that squad of flamers can become a squad of plasma, but can't be a complete mess squad with one of each special weapon). This essentially forces you to have at least a semi decent list whilst your opponent has his devastator squad with lascannon, heavy bolter, plasma cannon and multimelta...

But the squads arent more expensive initially. Its 150 points for a ten man unit. It starts off at the same cost, and then gets MASSIVELY cheaper as you insert more men.

 grendel083 wrote:
The pre-heresy list will have a huge advantage.
It is designed to be played against other legion lists, it is totally unbalanced compared to a 40k Codex.

Having said that, give your opponent some extra points and have fun with it. I've played campaigns with my Orks against legions, and it is a lot of fun.
Give the Orks x3 the points and play a "last stand". Great fun.

I completely disagree. I play mostly against 40k lists and we have yet to see any "balance" issues. The legion list is very balanced and the large squad size is offset by the lack of options I those squads.

Almost every "legion lists are not balanced" normally come from the paper generals. Put the models on the table and game on.

For 10 marines that can't take special weapons and don't have ATSKNF 150 is overcosted. The Horus Heresy list is decent and has some good tricks but it is not competitive and certain compatible lists give it real problems.

The only thing that is totally broken is the Moritat. Though ignoring melta Landraiders are just stupid.

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
Play a few games, test it out, house rule some stuff.

E.g. the volkite weapons are a tad on the strong side.

Melta-imune Landraiders are just nasty.

Free AP4 weapons on Word bearers should probably cost a few points.

But most of the stuff is relatively well ballanced.

Yes, lets make the worst legion in Betrayal (the world eaters, not the word bearers) even worse by forcing us to pay points for something that's COMPLETELY USELESS in the legion lists. Yeah man you're spot on, I'm going to get you to write for forgeworld!

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
Play a few games, test it out, house rule some stuff.

E.g. the volkite weapons are a tad on the strong side.

Melta-imune Landraiders are just nasty.

Free AP4 weapons on Word bearers should probably cost a few points.

But most of the stuff is relatively well ballanced.

Yes, lets make the worst legion in Betrayal (the world eaters, not the word bearers) even worse by forcing us to pay points for something that's COMPLETELY USELESS in the legion lists. Yeah man you're spot on, I'm going to get you to write for forgeworld!

Since the context of the thread is about mixing them into the "normal world" his comment makes sense.
Perhaps you should pause for a second and read and understand the thread before commenting?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
Play a few games, test it out, house rule some stuff.

E.g. the volkite weapons are a tad on the strong side.

Melta-imune Landraiders are just nasty.

Free AP4 weapons on Word bearers should probably cost a few points.

But most of the stuff is relatively well ballanced.

Yes, lets make the worst legion in Betrayal (the world eaters, not the word bearers) even worse by forcing us to pay points for something that's COMPLETELY USELESS in the legion lists. Yeah man you're spot on, I'm going to get you to write for forgeworld!

Since the context of the thread is about mixing them into the "normal world" his comment makes sense.
Perhaps you should pause for a second and read and understand the thread before commenting?

Though ap4 doesn't make a huge difference and its not like it is a free upgrade it is an upgrade you are paying for by not having chem flamers or one of the other legions rules...

There are things to adjust in the book but chain axes are one of them heck if chain axes were free on berserkers then bezerkers would almost be worth it.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
Play a few games, test it out, house rule some stuff.

E.g. the volkite weapons are a tad on the strong side.

Melta-imune Landraiders are just nasty.

Free AP4 weapons on Word bearers should probably cost a few points.

But most of the stuff is relatively well ballanced.

Yes, lets make the worst legion in Betrayal (the world eaters, not the word bearers) even worse by forcing us to pay points for something that's COMPLETELY USELESS in the legion lists. Yeah man you're spot on, I'm going to get you to write for forgeworld!

Since the context of the thread is about mixing them into the "normal world" his comment makes sense.
Perhaps you should pause for a second and read and understand the thread before commenting?

Yeah I can read. Maybe YOU should actually play some games with the Legion list and act like you are so superior to me when you're not. Hows that sound bud?
Guess what, chainaxes are a win-more option against stuff we would already beat in combat. Tau will die already.
But against 3+ or better saves we might as well have ccws.

Simmer down, sunshine. You came out of the gate with an attitude with a pure opinion comment that had no relevance to the question asked.

I play Legion WE and have none of the issues you mentioned.

Someone in our club plays Legion World eaters and we let him. While he doesn't usually bring his forgeworld in we trust him on most of the stuff, mainly because Legion (Or at least HIS legion) where so underpowered/bad. Although we didn't know he wasn't allowed to use Angron, but he is the whole reason he plays Legion anyway, so we let him. We like to play 1,750pts and he runs a land raider with a large marine unit joined by Angron, who slowly goes up and kills things. Its usually really fun and no one has had any trouble with him.

I personally think that Angon is a terrible use of his points, he's barely any more survivable then Mephiston with IC. All my Dark Eldar did was pop his land raider first turn and shoot splinter at him while I tried to walk towards my wall of Mech. It didn't work so well, and to add insult to injury I had my Archon take his last wound and soul trap him, who then punched in a Vindicator. Maybe he is jus a bad player, or has a bad list, but until our club sees him do something not nice, we will keep letting him ply legion and even include Angron into non-apoc games .

All the Primarchs are like that. Enough rolls and anything falls.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Simmer down, sunshine. You came out of the gate with an attitude with a pure opinion comment that had no relevance to the question asked.

I play Legion WE and have none of the issues you mentioned.

Probably because I wasn't replying to the original question but some ill informed posters who also posted pure opinion comments such as "I think chainaxes need to cost points"

Thanks though sunshine for shining up my day with your glorious comments