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I know this topic is a BIG can o' worms, but I'm having trouble finding the relevant threads.

So say I have shiny new Tigurius, and I want to put him in a drop pod with Sternguard.
Per Drop Pod assault the unit arrives Turn 1 and all get out.
Can I now cast psychic powers including blessings and maledictions?

Before we begin I know this:

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

But what I do not know is whether deploying troops from reserve (deepstrike, drop pod, outflank etc) counts as "normal" movement.
In other words, since you MUST deploy the unit at the START of the movement phase, before any other models can move, does that end the "start" of the movement phase thereby not allowing blessings? Or is it part of the "start" of the movement phase, hence simultaneous with manifestation of blessings, hence allowing the player to choose what order to do them in and cast blessings after arriving from reserves? Thoughts and interpretation on what defines the "start" of the movement phase would be appreciated.

Check the reserve rules in the BRB. It says something about whether or not a model arriving from reserves can do start of the turn stuff.

Don't have my rule book in front of me, but I believe the FAQ I posted is intended to be a clarification to the BRB entry.
And IMO it is still far from clear.

Since they are at the beginning of the libby's movement phase No is the clear answer.

The librarian is mounted and off the board. (so theres even arguments that he doesnt generate warp tokens)

But back on topic. Under drop pods it states that once the pod lands the unit must immediately disembark. Disembarking is movement. Thus you are not at the start of the libby's movement phase

Bringing a model out of reserves happens after rolling to see if they came in which happens at the same time as casting blessings. Therefore bringing them on would be after casting.

The rules are very explicit that you cannot throw a Blessing the turn you come in from reserve.

The old "can of worms" is a slightly different but related issue. It's not this one.

Goobi2 wrote:
Bringing a model out of reserves happens after rolling to see if they came in which happens at the same time as casting blessings. Therefore bringing them on would be after casting.

Not exactly, as psychic powers are also done when Outflank rolls are made (and after rolling Outflank the unit immediately moves on the board).

So basically you have a choice:
Reserves then Powers, or Power then Reserves.


It still does not override the restriction on models arriving from reserves.

Again you still have to be on the board

astro_nomicon wrote:
Don't have my rule book in front of me, but I believe the FAQ I posted is intended to be a clarification to the BRB entry.
And IMO it is still far from clear.

Page 67 (iirc) says you cannot manifest blessings or Maledictions the turn you arrive from Reserve. The FAQ you posted has to do with casting powers from units on the table before or after Reserves come on.

As Rigeld says ^above

Can't cast blessings/maledictions the turn a model arrives from reserve. HOWEVER, blessings CAN be cast on units that arrive from reserve.

Thanks for the clarification everyone.

Pyrian wrote:
The rules are very explicit that you cannot throw a Blessing the turn you come in from reserve.

The old "can of worms" is a slightly different but related issue. It's not this one.

What is the true can of worms you speak of, sir? I'm playing in a tourney soon and I really want to use Tigurius so I'm trying to get a handle on the finer points of using psychic powers. (Old Space Wolves player i.e. never used anything but JotWW )

The can of worms is whether you can delay casting Blessings/Maledictions by models already in play until after reserves physically arrive. There's not truly a clear answer, as the terms are not sufficiently defined. The FAQ says nothing about models arriving from reserves (only the rolls), so does not help.

I would not count on being able to delay Blessings/Maledictions and then cast them on reserves that have arrived. The other interpretation has more support and won't leave you hanging if you were counting on it.

Pyrian wrote:
The can of worms is whether you can delay casting Blessings/Maledictions by models already in play until after reserves physically arrive. There's not truly a clear answer, as the terms are not sufficiently defined. The FAQ says nothing about models arriving from reserves (only the rolls), so does not help.

Not true. The FAQ mentions reserve rolls and outflank rolls being simultaneous. We know that outflankers moving onto the board is simultaneous with the outflank roll. So unless you have some reason to say normal Reserves don't move onto the board at the same time as Outflankers...

There's some wiggle room (and some argument) about casting Blessings ON units arriving from Reserves. Units arriving from Reserves cannot, themselves, cast Blessings. There's no ambiguity about that.

And even then, that's not a LOT of wiggle room. Moving onto the board is moving. Moving happens after the beginning of the movement phase.

 Ailaros wrote:
And even then, that's not a LOT of wiggle room. Moving onto the board is moving. Moving happens after the beginning of the movement phase.

Not according to the rules (referring to the previously referenced FAQ).

 Ailaros wrote:
And even then, that's not a LOT of wiggle room. Moving onto the board is moving. Moving happens after the beginning of the movement phase.

No. Moving onto the board from reserves happens before any voluntary movement and therefore occurs at the beginning of the Movement phase.

What of units that come in from reserve but do not disembark or move but are merely deployed as with a mycetic spore?

 Abandon wrote:
What of units that come in from reserve but do not disembark or move but are merely deployed as with a mycetic spore?

What of them?
They come in either before or after blessings/Maledictions, your choice. Per the FAQ.

the faq was to clarify when when casting spells , and rolling for reaerves. since it wasn't clear as to which came first.

Now you can roll for reserves first, then cast then start movement, or roll spells then reserves the movement. however at anytime you move something on the board that's the start of the movement and all casting stops there.

Despite what people might think about buffing things as they come on, its sadly a mistake... just roll your spells, roll your reserves then move away and move on.

Lungpickle wrote:
the faq was to clarify when when casting spells , and rolling for reaerves. since it wasn't clear as to which came first.

Now you can roll for reserves first, then cast then start movement, or roll spells then reserves the movement. however at anytime you move something on the board that's the start of the movement and all casting stops there.

Despite what people might think about buffing things as they come on, its sadly a mistake... just roll your spells, roll your reserves then move away and move on.

No, it's clear how the rules actually work, and your interpretation isn't it.
Moving on from reserves is simultaneous with rolling for reserves (as far as the rules are concerned).

In answer to the OP.
"When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal." BRB page 124

Do units arrive from reserve at the start of the turn at the same time blessings/maledictions are used?
IMO, yes though it's not explicitly stated. The BRB only designates three sections of time in the movement phase that things can happen in. Start of the movement phase, during the movement phase and End of the movement phase. As everything about reserves is indicated to happen before 'normal movement'(which happens in the middle) Start of movement would seem to be when they are rolled for and enter. You get to pick the order in which things happen at that point.

Unfortunately you cannot use the psychic powers of a unit coming in from reserves though.
It's right on page 67 of the BRB
"On a turn that a psyker arrives from reserve (see page 124) he cannot attempt to manifest any psychic powers that must be manifested at the start of the Movement phase."

 Happyjew wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:
Bringing a model out of reserves happens after rolling to see if they came in which happens at the same time as casting blessings. Therefore bringing them on would be after casting.

Not exactly, as psychic powers are also done when Outflank rolls are made (and after rolling Outflank the unit immediately moves on the board).

So basically you have a choice:
Reserves then Powers, or Power then Reserves.


It still does not override the restriction on models arriving from reserves.

Still couldn't cast powers on units coming in from reserves though. Because if the Blessings are cast simultaneously as the Outflank rolls then it would still be before anything that happens immediately after the rolls, as they would also be immediately after the powers being cast.

Unfortunately you cannot use the psychic powers of a unit coming in from reserves though.

It's right on page 67 of the BRB:

"On a turn that a psyker arrives from reserve (see page 124) he cannot attempt to manifest any psychic powers that must be manifested at the start of the Movement phase."

That's quite clear but its only in regards to psykers that are entering from reserve, not psykers already on the table casting a blessing on another unit arriving from reserve.

Yeah this is not a can of worms nor a grey area. The rules clearly forbid this. However models on the board can cast psychic powers after units have arrived from reserve as per the FAQ.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, it's clear how the rules actually work, and your interpretation isn't it.
Moving on from reserves is simultaneous with rolling for reserves (as far as the rules are concerned).

He's not talking about rolling and moving from reserves, that's not his point.
It's about the reserve-happening and psychich powers/blessings.

Kangodo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, it's clear how the rules actually work, and your interpretation isn't it.
Moving on from reserves is simultaneous with rolling for reserves (as far as the rules are concerned).

He's not talking about rolling and moving from reserves, that's not his point.
It's about the reserve-happening and psychich powers/blessings.

And what does the FAQ tell us? That you can pick to resolve Reserves first, or cast powers. If you choose to resolve Reserves first, what is stopping you from casting powers on the units that just moved on?

His point seemed to be that once you start moving models on you're past the point where you can cast powers. That's demonstrably false.

The FAQ says we can roll for the reserves and outflanks first, but in each case the rolling occurs before bringing the models in. A psyker on the board could cast Scrier's Gaze to help your rolls or you could roll or wait and see if you see if you should cast a malediction for one of the reserves coming in.

But all those rolls are made before any model is moved, and casting is done at the same time as the rolls themselves.

Goobi2 wrote:
But all those rolls are made before any model is moved, and casting is done at the same time as the rolls themselves.

You should re-read Outflank. The Outflank roll (roll to determine table side) is done when you move the models on, not before.
Since the FAQ lumps that in with Reserve rolls, they're all simultaneous as far as the rules are concerned.

Re-read, its still not when you move the models. Its just when they pass their reserve rolls. After the Outflank rolls are made the "Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves" as per the Outflank rule, which is still after all rolls are made and powers should be cast.