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Goobi2 wrote:
Re-read, its still not when you move the models. Its just when they pass their reserve rolls. After the Outflank rolls are made the "Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves" as per the Outflank rule, which is still after all rolls are made and powers should be cast.

You might want to trade your rulebook in then...

BRB 40 wrote:When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves,

And when does a unit arrive from Reserves?

BRB 124 wrote:If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn

What does arriving mean?

BRB 124 wrote:When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below.

Taking all of this into account and knowing that - according to the rules - Outflank rolls are simultaneous with Reserve rolls, we can show that you make Outflank rolls when a unit arrives from Reserve (because you must deploy when arriving and must roll when arriving).

Goobi2 wrote:
Re-read, its still not when you move the models. Its just when they pass their reserve rolls. After the Outflank rolls are made the "Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves" as per the Outflank rule, which is still after all rolls are made and powers should be cast.

You don't know that following your interpretation if someone has more than 1 unit arrive from outflank on the same turn all but the first one rolled for are auto destroyed. Do you really believe that is the rules?

The reason being you are forced to move the units on as you make the Outflank roll. So after the first roll is made the first unit arrives. According to you that is now no longer the beginning of the turn therefore the next unit can not roll for outflank and therefore can not legally come on from ANY board edge and is thus destroyed. Seriously you play it this way?

Actually, according to me you would do all your rolls Psychic, Reserves, Outflank in the same stage and then all models that arrived from Reserves or Outflank would come onto the board as the first models moved in the movement phase.

The game is divided up into lots of simultaneous stages like that.

Also, arriving doesn't mean:

"BRB 124 wrote:
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below."

That statement says players picks one of the units that arriving that turn, not that doing so is the cause of them arriving. Otherwise it would say "Reserve arrive when." If a unit had to be moved onto the board in order to arrive, that would mean that Outflanking units would have to walk onto the board normally before they came in from the sides. That's just silly.

Instead a unit arrives:

"BRB 124 wrote:
If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn"

That statement says if the roll is appropriate that turn then the unit arrives. Its right after this that Outflanks rolls are made, unless you wanted to do Blessings right then for some reason.

rigeld2 wrote:
And what does the FAQ tell us? That you can pick to resolve Reserves first, or cast powers. If you choose to resolve Reserves first, what is stopping you from casting powers on the units that just moved on?
His point seemed to be that once you start moving models on you're past the point where you can cast powers. That's demonstrably false.

That makes the most sense, it allows you to cast powers on models that just arrived and you can use powers that increase the chance of them coming in play.

One thing that is unclear to me: Do you have to pick between all powers or can you say "Scrier's Gaze first, then reserve and then I cast prescience"?

Goobi2:

You seem to separate the process of rolling for reserves and units coming into play from reserve as if they occur at different points in the movement phase. It looks to me like one continuous procedure. The turn advances as the BRB tells us it does and the reserves rules do not permit it to do so until the units have moved onto the board. The obvious conclusion being that the movement phase does not progress beyond 'start of movement' until the reserves procedure is observed in its entirety and units enter play. This and other things that happen at the 'start of movement' are ordered as the controlling player sees fit.

Goobi2 wrote:
Actually, according to me you would do all your rolls Psychic, Reserves, Outflank in the same stage and then all models that arrived from Reserves or Outflank would come onto the board as the first models moved in the movement phase.

The game is divided up into lots of simultaneous stages like that.

Also, arriving doesn't mean:

"BRB 124 wrote:
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below."

That statement says players picks one of the units that arriving that turn, not that doing so is the cause of them arriving. Otherwise it would say "Reserve arrive when." If a unit had to be moved onto the board in order to arrive, that would mean that Outflanking units would have to walk onto the board normally before they came in from the sides. That's just silly.

Instead a unit arrives:

"BRB 124 wrote:
If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn"

That statement says if the roll is appropriate that turn then the unit arrives. Its right after this that Outflanks rolls are made, unless you wanted to do Blessings right then for some reason.

When do Reserves arrive? When you roll a 3+.
What happens when they arrive? They move on.

So when you roll a 3+ they move on. One simultaneous action.

When do you move on? Oh yeah, after you roll. The fact that one has to come after the other makes them not simultaneous.

When do cast powers? At the same time you roll, which is before moving on.

Goobi2 wrote:
When do you move on? Oh yeah, after you roll. The fact that one has to come after the other makes them not simultaneous.

Actually, according to the FAQ (and all the rules taken together), moving on is simultaneous with the roll. Yes, that's physically impossible, but as far as the rules are concerned that's what happens.

When you roll a 3+, units arrive.
When they arrive, they move on.

That's not a first this then this - it's when a happens, b happens.

The FAQ doesn't say that the movement is at the same time though, just the rolls. Arriving and moving on are not the same thing, as we covered earlier.

Goobi2 wrote:
When do you move on? Oh yeah, after you roll. The fact that one has to come after the other makes them not simultaneous.

When do cast powers? At the same time you roll, which is before moving on.

Within the turn order, they are in fact simultaneous. Permissive rule set. No permission is given for the turn or phase to progress between rolling for reserves and bringing in reserves nor does it state those two things as separate events. That means as far as the order of events goes reserves(the whole process), blessings/maledictions and any other 'at start of movement' events/effects/abilities all occur at the same time.

Edit: I just realized the funniest part is that by your line of thought here is that to use Terrify you'd have to declare it's use while selecting the target, rolling the psychic test all at once while simultaneously your opponent, all at once, rolls their moral, fallback distance and moves the models.... of course you wouldn't know if they were going to fall back til after the moral test and you won't know if you need to do that until after the psychic test but as it all happens simultaneously you don't have the opportunity to see if anything succeeds or not so you just have to guess it will work... or not... I think not.

Simultaneous in the game does not mean all the mechanics are handled simultaneously.

Goobi2 wrote:
The FAQ doesn't say that the movement is at the same time though, just the rolls. Arriving and moving on are not the same thing, as we covered earlier.

It does by saying that the outflank rolls are simultaneous as well - because those are done when the units arrive.
What else happens when they arrive? They move onto the table.

Permissive rule set? You aren't permitted to move on until you have rolled. One MUST follow the other.

Permissive rule set: blessings are at the same time as the ROLLS to come on. Nothing permits going after movement.

You totally missed what has already been said. By the rules, rolling for reserves and moving on from reserves happens simultaneously.

While they are at the start of the movement phase, it is definitively not at the same time if one must be before the other. The only part involving the timing of the movement part limits the models from reserve must be moved on before anyone else moves.

Again, by the rules they do occur at the same time. It doesn't matter that you have to pass the roll first to move on from reserve or not. By the rules they occur simultaneously.

By the rules, you can't come on until after rolls.

By the rules, (FAQ takes precedence) blessings occur at the same time as the rolls, which by the rules occurs before coming on.

Goobi2 wrote:
By the rules, you can't come on until after rolls.

By the rules, (FAQ takes precedence) blessings occur at the same time as the rolls, which by the rules occurs before coming on.

And when do you make Outflank rolls?

Goobi2 wrote:
By the rules, you can't come on until after rolls.

By the rules, (FAQ takes precedence) blessings occur at the same time as the rolls, which by the rules occurs before coming on.

And you still don't get the picture. Those events are considered to be simultaneous by the rules. Events that occur sequentially in real life can be considered to be simultaneous by the rules.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Outflank rolls happen when a unit moves onto the table.
So moving onto the table from reserve must occur simultaneously with Blessings.

By that logic you couldn't roll for outflank until the models were on the table...

Goobi2 wrote:
By that logic you couldn't roll for outflank until the models were on the table...

You should read outflank, take 2 minutes to slowly read over it. It is very clear that outflank rolls happens AS models enter play ie are coming on. There is no permission to stop outflanking, do something else and move the models on. You need to finish the execution of this special rule before you continue on to execute some other special rule.

This is why you cannot cast all the maledictions, bring in the reserves that could block line of sight and then bless the newly arrived reserves so they can shoot extra good this turn.

Goobi2 wrote:
By that logic you couldn't roll for outflank until the models were on the table...

Again you mistake simultaneous events in game with having to preform the necessary mechanics in real time. While this is incorrect I'd like to see a video of someone trying.

Player A is thinking about firing his bolters from his ten man squad... no time to think in the middle of it...
Player A declares the firing unit, declares target, checks range, rolls to hit, rolls to wound(with every possible combination of dice he might need to do so) and allocates wounds all at once while Player B guessing at which unit Player A was going to shoot with and at whom, rolls every possible combination of dice he might need in that moment for their saves.... all simultaneously!

This is the logic you did in fact present earlier... i'm still loling over it(no offense but its funny)

They are not simultaneous by the games standards though. Reserves are rolled for, then outflanks, and then they can come on. Outflankers move on exactly at the same time as regular reserves, which is still at a later step than the rolls to see if they come in at all.

Again, they ARE simultaneous. There are no separate steps at the beginning of the turn. Everything that happens at the beginning of the turn is simultaneous.

Goobi2 wrote:
They are not simultaneous by the games standards though. Reserves are rolled for, then outflanks, and then they can come on. Outflankers move on exactly at the same time as regular reserves, which is still at a later step than the rolls to see if they come in at all.

You said they are now you say they are not. You seem confused.

This is another situation where people are under the misapprehension that reality can be applied to 40k. Yes, you do roll for reserves before moving them on, no, they are not treated as sequential events as per the rules of the game. Simultaneous in rules, sequential in reality.