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I am sure this is answered somewhere, but could not locate it. Do psychic powers stack? Like the Eldar Warlock powers. In essence, with eldar Runes of Battle, would two castings of Protect give a total of +2 armour save?, or Empower give +2 Strength. Even Horrify, would multiple castings of it lower leadership values from -3 to -6 with a second casting?

Yes, two different castings of the same power will stack. Provided you can actually get multiple copies of the power on the field.

thanks, that helps a lot.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, two different castings of the same power will stack. Provided you can actually get multiple copies of the power on the field.

There is contention over the use of different. Some see it as meaning different powers others as being two different castings.
It would be best to check with a TO or see if there is a house rule on it in a club before building a strategy around it.

Blitz100 wrote:
I am sure this is answered somewhere, but could not locate it. Do psychic powers stack? Like the Eldar Warlock powers. In essence, with eldar Runes of Battle, would two castings of Protect give a total of +2 armour save?, or Empower give +2 Strength. Even Horrify, would multiple castings of it lower leadership values from -3 to -6 with a second casting?

Don't all those powers state "when this power is in effect, ..." ?
If they do, wouldn't they "be in effect" no matter how many were cast on the unit, leading to no stacking ?

"...this power..." is singular, so it is specifically referring to the instance of the power cast by that psyker.

 Grey Templar wrote:
"...this power..." is singular, so it is specifically referring to the instance of the power cast by that psyker.

How would it be phrased then? "When these powers are in effect"? That sure doesn't sound right.

No, they would phrase it "multiple castings of the same power do not stack". Or the power itself would say it doesn't stack with itself.

 Grey Templar wrote:
"...this power..." is singular, so it is specifically referring to the instance of the power cast by that psyker.

This power, as 'Enfeeble' or 'Jinx'. Ie. 'Whilst Jinx is in effect...'

But we have had several huge threads about this, so maybe someone could find them instead of having one again? In any case, there is no consensus, so it would be helpful to tell people who ask this that.

Here's one where both sides had their take I think.
Good luck with that.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503048.page

This thread is more recent.

I think RAW supports Psychic powers stacking... but the last "Enfeeble" thread reached 11 pages with no clear majority or decision. GW has neglected to post an FAQ in ages, and the last poll was a 51-49% split I recall.

Basically, ask your local judge for tournaments... and then check with opponents.

It all boils down to whether "the power" refers to that casting of the power or the power in and of itself, GW have so far neglected to tell us what the correct interpretation is, so the correct answer to "can you stack the same power" is "maybe, we don't know, lol".

My two cents:

"It should be noted that different Psykers in the same army can have the same psychic power(s)." page 418 BRB

Same powers are still the same even from different psykers.

"A Psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more"than once each turn" page 67 BRB

Same powers are the same even from different uses.

"Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative." page 68 BRB

Different powers are permitted to stack.

(looks through entire BRB)

Same powers are not given permission to stack.

 Abandon wrote:
Same powers are not given permission to stack.

Stacking is simply a word used to describe repetition.

You're given permission to cast a power and apply it's effects.
You're given permission to do it again (with a different Psyker) and apply it's effects.

Permission is granted. And never taken away.

Similar thing with wounds. No where in the BRB does it say wounds stack.
But you cause a wound on a character.
Then cause another.
And another.
By following basic maths, you get stacking.

^ While mostly correct, you assume that permission is never denied, however the wording of specific blessings and maledictions may or may not deny permission.

I just wish that whoever wrote the rules for 40k were actually, you know, competent at writing with clarity and consistency.

It is really unfortunate that there still isn't a FAQ clarifying this. Before the Eldar book this was not a big deal, but with Eldar having access to huge number of psykers with a lore with lots of blessings and maledictions this affects things a lot.

There probably will never be an FAQ, because GW spells it out in 5 different places in the BRB that effects from different abilities stack, and in 1 place that effects from multiple uses of the same ability do not stack. Its unfortunate that 50% of the player base plays it wrong (we just can't figure out which 50% is wrong)

SJ

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Same powers are not given permission to stack.

Stacking is simply a word used to describe repetition.

You're given permission to cast a power and apply it's effects.
You're given permission to do it again (with a different Psyker) and apply it's effects.

Permission is granted. And never taken away.

Similar thing with wounds. No where in the BRB does it say wounds stack.
But you cause a wound on a character.
Then cause another.
And another.
By following basic maths, you get stacking.

Actually in this context 'to stack' means 'to add up'. The book actually uses the word cumulative though which has a much more specific meaning.

Are those powers permitted to accumulate though?

"Continue allocating unsaved wounds to the closest model until there are no more Wounds left.." Page 15 BRB
This wording actually does indicate a cumulative system for wounds as it would make no sense in a non-cumulative system.

 Abandon wrote:
Are those powers permitted to accumulate though?

Would depend entirely on the power in question. Something using a straight modifier, I'd say yes.

"Continue allocating unsaved wounds to the closest model until there are no more Wounds left.." Page 15 BRB
This wording actually does indicate a cumulative system for wounds as it would make no sense in a non-cumulative system.

Fair enough, for a single round of shooting. But subsequent rounds?
It's very much a "rinse and repeat" system.
So these wounds would be accumulating/stacking.

Well I'm fairly certain in my assessment I should also say that GW has pretty much given us a puzzle with only half the peices so... who knows for sure.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GW spells it out... in 1 place that effects from multiple uses of the same ability do not stack.

Please, do tell me where this is.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GW spells it out... in 1 place that effects from multiple uses of the same ability do not stack.

Please, do tell me where this is.

As you very well know from previous threads on this subject we've both posted in, I'm referring to pg. 32 of the BRB. The fact that there is a least one psychic with the verbiage stating that its effects are cumulative, while the bulk of the psychic powers in print do not, does indicate GW has followed their own rules as written per the 6th Ed rule set. Just because you disagree does not automatically make you correct. And since GW does appear to be following their own rules, there is no reason to hold our collective breath for an FAQ addressing something GW doesn't appear to notice is a problem.

As such, you can go on thinking different = same, while I will go on thinking different = different, because the only person whose opinion actually matters on this is the TO. If the the TO says powers stack, then I will grit my teeth and stack my powers. If the TO says powers do not stack, I just console my opponent on how things can be read in different ways while playing the game in the manner I see as correct.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GW spells it out... in 1 place that effects from multiple uses of the same ability do not stack.

Please, do tell me where this is.

As you very well know from previous threads on this subject we've both posted in, I'm referring to pg. 32 of the BRB. The fact that there is a least one psychic with the verbiage stating that its effects are cumulative, while the bulk of the psychic powers in print do not, does indicate GW has followed their own rules as written per the 6th Ed rule set. Just because you disagree does not automatically make you correct. And since GW does appear to be following their own rules, there is no reason to hold our collective breath for an FAQ addressing something GW doesn't appear to notice is a problem.

As such, you can go on thinking different = same, while I will go on thinking different = different, because the only person whose opinion actually matters on this is the TO. If the the TO says powers stack, then I will grit my teeth and stack my powers. If the TO says powers do not stack, I just console my opponent on how things can be read in different ways while playing the game in the manner I see as correct.

SJ

Hmm, I don't see anything about psychic powers on page 32. The only thing I see is that a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. But we all know that psychic powers =/= special rules. Unless there is something I am missing?

Just the rules, which is why this is a circular argument.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Just the rules, which is why this is a circular argument.

You're incorrectly citing the Special Rules section when discussing Psychic Powers.
Yes, it's a "circular argument" when one side uses relevant rules and someone else uses irrelevant rules.
It's like saying "The sky is blue." and someone else saying "Nuh uh! Ducks are brown!"

They don't stack.

the psychic powers spell it out 4 times that "different powers are cumulative" when you pick psychic powers you are told different psychers can take the SAME power.

So different psychers will use the same power. they are identical. ie not different.

As the poll was so close, We can say RAW is inconclusive, I would say RAW they don't stack. if nothing else, RAI they don't stack, They use a lot of ink making a point of different powers stack which only grants permission for different powers to stack. It's a theme to the whole rule book really, unless otherwise stated the same SRs don't stack with itself, just like the same psychic power don't stack.

sirlynchmob wrote:
the psychic powers spell it out 4 times that "different powers are cumulative" when you pick psychic powers you are told different psychers can take the SAME power.

yes it says "different powers are cumulative" but no where does it say "same powers are not cumulative".

It's a theme to the whole rule book really, unless otherwise stated the same SRs don't stack with itself, just like the same psychic power don't stack.

There is indeed a theme. As follows:

BRB p32 "A Compendium of Special Rules wrote:Unless otherwise stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative

BRB p68 "Blessings wrote:Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative

I've underlined the theme in two rules. But the interesting part is the bit not underlined in the first quote, which is strangley absent from the second quote.

Whilst I personally feel that the same power from a different psyker shouldn't stack, Rigeld and Happy both seem to agree which is generally a solid argument in and of itself.

However, one thing that always bugs me during these discussions are the two powers from Codex:CSM that specifically state that multiple versions of that power stack (Gift of Contagation in the Nurgle Discipline and Symphony of Pain in the Slaanesh Discipline - Page 71). Is this simply reminder text (as the CSM book was first out of the gate for 6th), or is an exemption from the norm?

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
the psychic powers spell it out 4 times that "different powers are cumulative" when you pick psychic powers you are told different psychers can take the SAME power.

yes it says "different powers are cumulative" but no where does it say "same powers are not cumulative".

different: permission granted
same: no permission
they don't need to specify same powers are not cumulative as they are never given permission to be cumulative.

me:
It's a theme to the whole rule book really, unless otherwise stated the same SRs don't stack with itself, just like the same psychic power don't stack.

you
There is indeed a theme. As follows:

BRB p32 "A Compendium of Special Rules wrote:Unless otherwise stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative

BRB p68 "Blessings wrote:Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative

I've underlined the theme in two rules. But the interesting part is the bit not underlined in the first quote, which is strangley absent from the second quote.

They spent more time on the SR's, they went the extra mile to make sure things were clear. From the wording between the two, we can infer the intent: they meant the same thing for psychic powers.