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Since Slamanders, Ultramarines, White Scars and all the others got rolled into the new Black Templar codex, and I've always had a soft spot for the goff marines, I'm currently thinking about starting them as my second army. So I've toyed a lot with the new army list and came to realize that I don't know gak about MEQ tactics (outside of how to kill them). So, lots of questions:

1. Is Helbrecht actually worth it or should I just stick to a generic HQ?
He automatically gets the furious charge warlord trait, has a decent power sword and gets to call a slightly better Waaagh, which is nice in combination with crusader from chapter tactics. So if I stick him with a unit of close combat specialists, he looks like he could pull his own weight, while buffing said unit a lot. I also like how he has a combi-melta, not awesome but might just be that one shot which took down the transport you want to charge. However, he only has a 4++ save and is vulnerable to instant death via powerfist or equivalent.
A generic Chapter Master (High Marshal) gets access to EW, orbital bombardment and maybe a bike, but gets a random (potential useless) warlord trait, no close combat buffs and costs a bit more than Helbrecht.
Which one is better? Or maybe spending that many points is a bad option either way and I should aim for a cheap HQ like a captain or the Emperor's Champion?

2. Any of the HQs pretty much demand a close combat unit to go and punch people. One option seems to be the honour guard. They appear to have a fair price for 2+ armour, a nice amount of attacks, and the option to take relic blades to handle big things. They don't have an invulnerable save, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem in close combat. Putting them in a landraider with Helbrecht or a Chapter Master seems like a solid hammer unit without investing an arm and a leg into it (before buying the landraider, that is). Am I missing something, or are they a pretty good deal?

2a. The chapter banner looks awesome to me, a bunch of close combat guys should definitely bring a banner with +1 to attacks. Or should they? Is the Relic Banner worth a thought if I don't have Helbrecht? It pretty much seems like a chaplain on a stick to me, might as well get a real chaplain.

2b. What do I get the champion? Since he absolutely has to take any challenge, should he get a power axe, or will any 2+ model ruin him anyway and he should just go with the sword to use his initiative?

2b. Relic blades for everyone? No one? At 10 points it seems a bit expensive, so I wouldn't buy one for everyone, but I think three or four help against sturdy targets. An honor guard with relic blade is still cheapter than an assault terminator, even if you add the cost of the banner.

3. Compared to honor guard, assault terminators look kind o f bad. Lightning claws generate a nice number of attacks, TH/SS are as unkillable as it gets for rank and file units. However, they are unable to sweep, you can fit less in a landraider, they don't have grenades and are more points than their artificer armour counterparts. Since mathhammer tells us that three attacks with a relic blade are always superior to three attack with lightning claws, the only reason to take assault terminators could be TH/SS. Is the 3++ save worth all the downsides?

4. Last option is a crusader blob. However, since I'm an ork player ~40 attacks (without HQ) on the charge don't sound impressive to me - trukk boyz can do that for a lot less points. Am I just spoiled, or is there something I don't see?

5. Crusaders with lascannon and plasmagun make sense to me, it's basically picking two weapons which have the most overlap of targets. However, I'm not so sure on their transport, should they get one? A rhino to sit in and shoot out of? Or just get a las/plas razorback as cheap artillery tank?

5a. If I do get razorbacks, do I bother about deploying the cursaders in there in the first place? Or do I just have them deployed disembarked, so they can start shooting right away?

6. I definitely want something that orks don't have: Long range heavy firepower. But which one out of all those options? A pair of predators? Devastators with lascannons or missile launchers? A storm raven escorted by a storm talon? In my eyes all these choices are about equivalent, both in points and firepower. Is there a right choice, or is it just a matter of taste and/or synergy to the rest of the list?

7. I really like dreads, but it seems that 6th is the edition of "screw walkers!". The Ironclad still looks like a solid choice to me though, as AV13 means that kraks can't hurt it and it will probably walk all over whatever it charges. Is AV13 enough to weather a turn of shooting though? Should it pop smoke the turn it arrives from reserves via drop pod rather than attempt to flame or melta something? Maybe even try to drop somewhere out of sight or into terrain?

7a. For drop pods, is the deathwind launcher really worth it? While it's undoubtedly better than a storm bolter, I don't see it being worth 15 points. How come I still see it in lots of drop pod lists?

1. Both Helbrecht and generic Chapter Masters are playable choices. As you correctly note, Helbrecht won't be as much of a beatstick, but he'll be cheaper and will help the army out more. While Helbrecht is vulnerable to Power Fists, you've got LOS! and your 4++, and Helbrecht doesn't have to accept challenges. You probably never want to run the Emperor's Champion. 25 points more gets you a Captain with the Burning Blade and Artificier Armour which is so much better it's not even funny.

2. You don't want to run your Warlord in a Land Raider with Honour Guard; it's not so much putting all the eggs in one basket as putting the entire farm in the basket. The Honour Guard will murderize stuff just fine without your Warlord, who is then free to add some oomph to other parts of the list, this muddling up target priority for your enemy.

2a. The relic banner has the advantage of not having to spend an HQ slot on a 2-wound IC, as well as being cheaper (and on a 2+ armour model). The disadvantage is that it's on a non-Character and as such can be sniped. I'd probably go with the "normal" banner, 65 points is a lot.

2b. I'd run him with an Axe (or possibly Thunder Hammer). Almost everything that's AP2 is I1, so you'll probably get to swing before dying, and against Swords and Maces you have your 2+. Then again, if you go for a Sword you can always hope to Rend the enemy to death in Challenges.

2b. (again? Wut? ) I'd probably not buy any Relic Blades at all; if you get in a good charge with Honour Guard that's an awful lot of Power Weapon attacks. Chances are you'll mangle the enemy pretty hard anyway.

3. With the increase in cost and loss of Furious Charge and Rage, Assault Terminators seem rather shoddy now. I'd probably leave them at home.

4. What you're missing is that you've got a reasonably resilient Troops choice that can get two Power Weapons. You could also add a Chaplain for rerolls. A blob would be an excellent place to put Helbrecht, as he'd have plenty of people to LOS! anything dangerous to, while being able to give the blob Furious Charge and Hatred for a turn.

5. The Lasplas squad is a veteran from the old Codex that is still standing strong.I tend to not use a Transport for mine and just plop them down in terrain on an Objective. Sure, there's Heldrakes and such out there, but if they're killing Lasplas-squads they're not killing my CC units.

5a. If you do buy a Lazorback you'll probably want to start shooting straight away to maximize your firepower.

6. There's plenty of decent long-range units, but I wouldn't take ML Devs. Lascannons are only slightly more and better at everything except anti-horde, which you probably won't need much help with. Stormtalons are rather interesting in that they're good fliers without being OP, and not too expensive.

7. Ironclad Dreadnoughts are perfectly playable, but (as you've been touching at) you can't just drop them straight into the enemy lines and expect them to live. They're excellent when dropped on a flank (and as you say preferrably behind terrain or the Pod itself).

7a. The Deathwind launcher has never been very appealing to me. It does wound Tau and Eldar on 2s, but that's about it.

Once you go Black (Templars), you never go back!

I pretty much agree with all the above with just 1 exception: the Emperor's Champion is really not that bad if you're tight on points. Stick him in a blob and let him deal with the challenges while the rest of the squad shreds the enemy unit. Just don't go against a Daemon Prince or other uber-CC models.

Thanks for answering both of you. Of course, I've got more questions now

4. What you're missing is that you've got a reasonably resilient Troops choice that can get two Power Weapons. You could also add a Chaplain for rerolls. A blob would be an excellent place to put Helbrecht, as he'd have plenty of people to LOS! anything dangerous to, while being able to give the blob Furious Charge and Hatred for a turn.

So, you're basically saying that I should run both an honor guard and a blog?
The big question is, how do I get them across the table? Two landraiders seem like a lot of points, and all other vehicles either won't let you assault after disembarking or are flying deathtraps.

Also, how do I allocate wounds on the crusader squads anyways? Neophytes first because they are expendable, or initiates first because they've got a better save?

As for landraiders, is there a point in taking a redeemer just to save points? It's supposed to be the anti-horde pattern, but as I've been on the receiving end of it a couple of times, all I know is that it's the worst of the three variants. Hurricain bolters are just that much better.

I pretty much agree with all the above with just 1 exception: the Emperor's Champion is really not that bad if you're tight on points. Stick him in a blob and let him deal with the challenges while the rest of the squad shreds the enemy unit. Just don't go against a Daemon Prince or other uber-CC models.

To be honest, what I'm worried about most, is someone charging his beatstick into the unit just to behead my warlord. It's not like the Emperor's Champion is going to duck out of impossible challenges. Especially the Kor'sarro Khans popping up everywhere will have field day with the EC due to their warlord trait.

1) depending on your point scale you might have to choose between Honor Guard or Crusader blob. I would pick the Crusader blob at lower points in a LRC. You can try dual LRC with an honor guard in one and the blob in the other at higher point scales. As far as LoS allocation it all depends on the wounds you're trying to allocate, who's nearest to you and what kind of save they have. Basic rules: at the very least keep the special/melee weapon wielding models away from your tanking IC, the general rule of thought is to sacrifice neophytes first since they're the least useful in CC anyway (lower WS), however, if you're using LoS on AP4 (because your IC has 1 wound left for example) you may want to place initiates around him to avoid losing models altogether. Some thinking will be required once you disembark.

2) I would stick with the LRC for your blobs (for sheer capacity), a Spartan would truly epic (25 models). The redeemer isn't bad but as you mentioned the LRC has the edge in forward assault tank.

3)You would go at the same time as Khan and while his sword can't penetrate your armor you wouldn't have that hard of a time chopping his nuts off with re-roll to hit and rending and AP2 and insta-kill on 6 attacks. Meanwhile the 15+ other dudes in your squad can overwhelm the armor saves of the 5-man command squad that will most likely accompany Khan. I'm not saying he's the best BT HQ choice, I'm just saying that if you can't fit the captain + burning blade HQ, he's a good replacement. Personally I'm gonna try a dual LRC each with 15-man blob, one with EC the other with the Captain/burning blade and some fire-support at 2k for a fun list.

 phoenix darkus wrote:


3)You would go at the same time as Khan and while his sword can't penetrate your armor you wouldn't have that hard of a time chopping his nuts off with re-roll to hit and rending and AP2 and insta-kill on 6 attacks. Meanwhile the 15+ other dudes in your squad can overwhelm the armor saves of the 5-man command squad that will most likely accompany Khan. I'm not saying he's the best BT HQ choice, I'm just saying that if you can't fit the captain + burning blade HQ, he's a good replacement. Personally I'm gonna try a dual LRC each with 15-man blob, one with EC the other with the Captain/burning blade and some fire-support at 2k for a fun list.

Just out of curiosity, where are you getting 6 attacks from on the Emperor's Champion? My math gives him 4 attacks on the charge

I meant insta-kill on 6s. Poor writing.