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Would it make sense for there to be daemons of chaos undivided? I believe the Fury is said to be unaffiliated with any of the gods, and considering the existence of the forge of souls and the fluff concerning non-chaos god lands in the warp, it seems like there could be daemons of chaos undivided lurking about, despite fluff saying most daemons are fragments of the gods of chaos.

I don't know what form they would take or what sin / vice they would work to epitomize, like Khorne does with wrath or Slaanesh with lust, but i really would have liked to seen the Daemons expanded beyond just the 4 gods and seen some more of whats going on within the warp. Plus with all the followers of chaos undivided out there now, between cults, traitors, and chaos space marines, it seems like there would be enough fuel to have something happen along these lines, even if its just the re-emergence of chaos undivided worshipers as undivided daemons of some sort.

So what do you think these daemons would look like if they existed? What sin / vice do you think they would encompass?

The problem is daemons are made by the chaos gods, so there would be no daemons who follow all four gods.

The problem is daemons are made by the chaos gods, so there would be no daemons who follow all four gods.

But furies are mortal souls twisted by the warp, they are daemons, but they dont follow any of the 4 gods, nor were they created by the gods of chaos. They seem to have just been mutated by the warp into furies from souls without the input of any of the gods, so could this happen to the point where they're not pesky annoyances but full-fledged, dangerous daemons similar to any of the other minor daemons? Could greater daemons be made like this?

Similarly, the forge of souls doesn't serve any of the chaos gods, they actually make daemons swear off serving their god before allowing them into a soul grinder. It just seems like if a daemon refused to serve it's god, and its a part of that god, the god would just crush them or reabsorb them or something, so they have to exist without the support of any of the gods somehow, so what is it like for daemons that have been abandoned or refused their god? Do they retain their old shape and abilites, or are they changed into so new form?

Alternatively, i believe there are already daemon princes of chaos undivided, given a bit of power by all 4 chaos gods right? could something like each god bleeding pieces of its strength into the warp combine to form undivided daemons of some sort?

It just seems like there is a lot of room for things to exist outside of the 4 gods of chaos, and i think it would be interesting to explore what daemons from these circumstances would be like.

There's no actual specific fluff event of it, but it's implied that it's possible for daemons to "convert" if their emotions transfer over to another emotion. Whether or not that means you can end up with khornate daemonettes if you piss off a daemonette enough or end up with a Slaaneshi plague bringer if one gazes upon Slaanesh, or if they instead just transform into that god's version of the daemon is beyond me. They're all made up of the same emotional energy so theretically a daemon could be transformed by simply switching its emotions I imagine but... yea, fluff doesn't really have any events of that. ....at all.

There are daemon princes of Chaos Undivided, which is someone granted daemon power by all four gods. Therefore it should be possible for all four gods to create a daemon too, I think, but fluff never said anything on the subject either way (furies aren't created by the gods so much as souls that become daemons because no god would take them).

Honestly, there's so much that could be expanded upon regarding daemons in general but no fluff ever does. A pity, really.

Aren't there al kinds of daemons in the warp that aren't affiliated to any particular god, they simply exist?

Back in the good ol days, daemons were created by emotions, rather than created by gods. So yeah, you could have undivided daemons and unique daemons.

Now, daemons are rigidly organized. Yes, I know, when you think of chaos the first thing you think of is four well defined factions, each with its own well defined hierarchies and subgroups.

I think of it as being a combination of the two explanations. Daemons are made of emotions. The strongest of these coalesce into the Chaos Gods - so really, they're just REALLY big and powerful Daemons - who can then rip off a chunk of their energy to make a smaller Daemon of their own.

There are Furies and other such entities that exist as Daemons without being created by a Chaos God, or otherwise related to one. However they're not going to be as powerful as a result. They're also not going to be serving all four powers at once, unless it's a particularly convoluted plan of a Tzeentch Daemon of course.

The latest Daemons dex says that Furies are those Chaos followers that could not determine which of the Chaos Gods that they wished to serve, so moved from one to the other resulting in no particular god wanting their service.

I guess the difference between this type of follower and someone that worships the entire pantheon is that they would supplicate all the gods in equal measure, rather than one more so at any specific time. Which is also why you do not get gods of undivided, as you are dividing your worship and praise equally amongst the big four.

In the 3.5 dex it did mention that at certain times major things happening could lead to a conscious being formed in the warp, some form of lesser power, but it would fade when what ever created it had ended.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The latest Daemons dex says that Furies are those Chaos followers that could not determine which of the Chaos Gods that they wished to serve, so moved from one to the other resulting in no particular god wanting their service.

I guess the difference between this type of follower and someone that worships the entire pantheon is that they would supplicate all the gods in equal measure, rather than one more so at any specific time. Which is also why you do not get gods of undivided, as you are dividing your worship and praise equally amongst the big four.

In the 3.5 dex it did mention that at certain times major things happening could lead to a conscious being formed in the warp, some form of lesser power, but it would fade when what ever created it had ended.

Is it their indecisiveness that makes Furies so terrible?

Ld2 with the warp rules is ungodly awful.

But seriously, it seems that Furies are undeniably worse and more expendable than just about any other kind of Lesser Daemon save Nurglings.

 Kain wrote:

But seriously, it seems that Furies are undeniably worse and more expendable than just about any other kind of Lesser Daemon save Nurglings.

Even then Nurglings get a lot of love from their papa

Super Ready wrote:Daemons are made of emotions. The strongest of these coalesce into the Chaos Gods - so really, they're just REALLY big and powerful Daemons - who can then rip off a chunk of their energy to make a smaller Daemon of their own.

This is my interpretation as well, given how the Chaos Codex explained it. There are no "daemons of rage" not affiliated with Khorne because this emotion is Khorne's domain, so the emotion that would otherwise create such a daemon is claimed by this entity. This might (attention, speculation ahead) even be a forceful event - studio fluff hints at conflicts in the Warp, with the various daemons fighting each other, and the victor possibly absorbing the power of the loser. This absorption may well only be possible if the energy/emotion is "compatible", in other words Khorne could never absorb a daemon who was created by the emotion of excess.

And if one would delve into Eldar mythology (I'm not an expert on this subject, but I have read a bit), I think that there seems to be some interesting connection between which Eldar "gods" were "imprisoned" by which Chaos "gods" ...

Isha (healing, fertility, harvest) <-> Nurgle
Kaela Mensha Khaine (war, violence, murder) <-> Khorne

Even between the Eldar deities themselves, similar "assimilation events" could be discerned from the myths, if one were to read between the lines. Take, for example, the legendary sword of the Smith God Vaul, which was taken by the War God Khaine and then used to slay Eldanesh. Under consideration of how interaction between Warp entities was explained, this could well be translated as the sword symbolising Vaul's power, and Vaul's domain having been martial power or destruction, whereas Khaine was was merely the god of murder. It is of note that Khaine itself is an Eldar word that (at least according to Lexicanum) means "the essence of murder", yet the god himself has come to be seen as the god of war. Was that always so, or just after he defeated Vaul? Theories, theories ...

We'll probably never have the original writers clarify their intentions behind the fluff, but I think it's an interesting topic to speculate about.

 Lynata wrote:
It is of note that Khaine itself is an Eldar word that (at least according to Lexicanum) means "the essence of murder", yet the god himself has come to be seen as the god of war. Was that always so, or just after he defeated Vaul? Theories, theories ...

We'll probably never have the original writers clarify their intentions behind the fluff, but I think it's an interesting topic to speculate about.

I think the difference is from WHFB to 40k

As far as I can recall, Khaine in 40k was the god of war for the eldar and Khaine in fantasy was the god of murder.

I've never seen those two definitions cross over the games

(although if anyone has any quotes and stuff that says otherwise, I'd love to read them ))

Aren't Purturabo and Lorgar Demons of Chaos Undivided now? Not sure if Alpharius Omegon went this route as well or if hes still just a normal Primarch.

There are plenty of non-affiliated warp entities. They aren't particularly powerful though, just opportunistic predators which devour souls adrift in the warp or pop into an unguarded psyker's mind for a cup of tea and a chat.

The whole realm of chaos having a more physical layout is a newer idea I think, and is only metaphorical.