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So as some of you know, I usually just play with my dad to make Battle Reports, but today I was free and went over to my local GW to play (first time I've actually played there). I brought a Haradrim Army to play and ended up facing a kid who was about 12. However, he apparently knew what he was doing, because he basically cherry picked the better units out of the Dwarves and Gondor armies and made a team to fight with. We ended up playing High Ground and he plopped Dain and a bunch of Dwarf Warriors with Iron Guard right straight on the hill. I can't really fault him for that, but I have to say from a game balance point of view, its kind of cheap that that's allowed as a rule. In this case, he put down a tough unit right on the objective and at that point, before the game even began, he was winning, and it was my game to take from him. Not to mention that his forces took up almost the entire hill top, so just by virtue of not getting to place there first, I would have to be climbing up and sitting there while he pummeled me. I think its a little unfair, but don't hate the player, hate the game. I can look past that. In the end, through a combination of low Haradrim defensive values and some rather poor rolls, I got decimated. So the way I figure it, if I'm going to be facing lists of a lot more competitive nature at my FLGS, I can play that game. I'll just have to make more competitive lists. The only issue is that, since I'm still fairly new to the game, I'm wondering what models from each of the major lists would be designated as the more competitive ones, and which would be better suited for a friendly, fun game. I'm not looking for min/max teams that will steamroll through the competition, but I'd like to show up with a team that at least stands a chance and it'd be nice to win sometimes. Today was just an embarrassing crushing and wasn't a very fun experience (although the manager loved the paint jobs on my models, and was raving about them, so that was nice, at least). I'd like not to replicate this situation.

Anyway, just from looking at things, Harad and Umbar, while really cool, don't really seem to be all that competitive unless you're taking a Mumak. Their armor is just way too low. Yeah, they do have the ability to reroll 1s either through shooting or using war spears (where applicable), but the low strength of the bow in general makes it almost a waste of points. En masse, bows can be great, but with the 1/3 limit, in an army of 30 or so guys, that's 10 bows. Assuming you don't take Warriors of Karna, you'll hit on average about 5 times, and if facing Defense 5 and up, you'll need 6s. That's...what, maybe a kill per turn, if you're lucky? And if you move, that 4+ becomes 5+ and you hit even less. If you're going against Dwarf Warriors with Defense 7, you need 6/4 to wound. It just doesn't seem worth it, and Haradrim Raiders with bows are even more expensive. Corsairs are even more lightly armored, but can at least take Shields and have a nice 4 Fight value (though against the Dwarves I was facing, that meant nothing-for 1 point more overall, they had the same fight AND a 2 base defense higher). And unfortunately, when facing Dwarf bows, Elf Bows or Crossbows, they'll just mow a Harad army down, thanks to the high strength. Even Dalamyr, who actually seems really good, only has a 4 defense for 100 pts. It generally seems like Harad needs to remain untouched to thrive, and with such low defense, very average strength and Fight, that's not going to happen. If anyone has some tips, I'd appreciate it. The Mahud seem pretty decent, since they have above average (for Haradrim) defense, better strength and War Camels, but they're kinda pricey. Same with the Half-Trolls.

Have played against harad only, and while a mûmak is good, but I don't think it is really nessecary for a win. Massing infantry can be pretty good as well.

As for bows, all they really do is maybe pick off a few guys, but tyet never do anything extrodainary. I play isenguard frequently, and at the most 5-6 guys will die before combat hits. The only armys that can have a solid shooting phase is probably elves, uruk crossbowmen, and harad becuse of either the strength or masses of bows that do the damage.

Low defence is a bummer, but can be worked around with cavalry and high fight value guys. Yeah, I may only have defence 4 but you ain't gonna touch me if I have a above average fight and don't suffer the -1 for two handed weapon.

Dalmyr looks good on paper but isn't that effective on the field. I have found him pretty easy to kill. Just avoid him if you have a good hero.

Hope that helps.

Cavalry can help, but its kind of annoying that I have to buy several boxes of Raiders to amass enough with War Spears. The ones on Bows really don't seem that effective, since there's only a few and considering they'll constantly be moving, have a 5+ shoot value. War Spears appear to be the way to go, but even then, you still have to actually win the Fight. If, for example, a Knight of Minas Tirith loses a Fight, with a 6 defense (assuming he's got a shield), he's got a good chance of surviving. The Raiders, on the other hand, are 2 points less and die really easily if they lose. The Serpent Riders at least have slightly better Fight, but they pay the points for it.

Here's how I look at a comparison. 8 points buys me a Corsair with Shield. 4 Fight, 3 Strength, 4 defense and 3 Courage. For that 8 points, I could also get a Morannon Orc with Shield. 3 Fight, 4 Strength, 6 defense and 2 Courage. Yes, the Corsair has the better Fight, but that only comes into play on ties, and even if he did win, he'd be killing me on 6s-a tough roll, all things considered. If I won, I'd be killing him on 4s, which are infinitely better odds. The only other difference is that his Courage is slightly higher. I mean, for that 8 points, I can do so much more, it seems. That low defense is just so problematic.

My point is that Harad really seems like a tough army to play. Even with massed guys, against higher defenses, they're toast unless they roll like gods. It'd be like waves crashing against rocks. I'm sure there's a way to make them more competitive, but I'm having a hard time seeing it.

Not really.

The average Haradrim warrior is the same points value as an Orc, with a better shoot value and maybe fight as well? (I'll check that). Plus you have poisoned arrows - that's awesome.

Haradrim are a good army, and I love my Southrons. Raiders are badass, Warriors are badass, Corsairs are also badass, and Hasharin are badass.

I don't deny their badass-ness, I agree that they're all awesome. Though Haradrim Warriors have only a 3 Fight, so its the same as an Orc (though with a bow, a Haradrim Warrior comes out to being more expensive than an Orc with Shield). The thing the Haradrim really seem to excel at are Shooting, since they can have a potential 3+ shoot if upgraded. Its just that their bow strength sucks. Yes, you can reroll 1s thanks to Poison Arrows, but you still need a 6 to kill most guys, and having a 1 in 6 chance of a reroll to get that 6 is...well, let's just say it doesn't seem like it would factor in beyond the odd time.

And of course, there's the problem of that damned defense value. Its not like the Haradrim are Goblin cheap where you can hoard them. Even then, Goblins with Shields are still cheaper, and with a Shaman nearby casting channeled Fury, they've got a lot more staying power.

Anyone have thoughts on the Mahud or Abrakahn Guard? How about Heroes? Knight of Umbar seems really good.

I avoid all ringwraiths when I learned that only the undying could use his will as fate. Mahud are Meh. I really hate playing the guard, because they have a above average fight and don't suffer the -1 for two handed. So against the average human, he' has a huge advantage. Don't know points costs though.

 KOBossy wrote:
I don't deny their badass-ness, I agree that they're all awesome. Though Haradrim Warriors have only a 3 Fight, so its the same as an Orc (though with a bow, a Haradrim Warrior comes out to being more expensive than an Orc with Shield). The thing the Haradrim really seem to excel at are Shooting, since they can have a potential 3+ shoot if upgraded. Its just that their bow strength sucks. Yes, you can reroll 1s thanks to Poison Arrows, but you still need a 6 to kill most guys, and having a 1 in 6 chance of a reroll to get that 6 is...well, let's just say it doesn't seem like it would factor in beyond the odd time.

And of course, there's the problem of that damned defense value. Its not like the Haradrim are Goblin cheap where you can hoard them. Even then, Goblins with Shields are still cheaper, and with a Shaman nearby casting channeled Fury, they've got a lot more staying power.

Anyone have thoughts on the Mahud or Abrakahn Guard? How about Heroes? Knight of Umbar seems really good.

The Knight of Umbar gets pretty pricy fast since he wants to be on a Fell Beast of some kind to get the most benefit out of his two abilities, especially since his magical abilities aren't too great when compared to other ringwraiths.
Want you really want for Harad is the Betrayer for the 1s and 2s on Poisoned Arrows and Blades as well as the Courage 6 staying power and then just take captains with bows to help supplement your shooting power whilst taking up the hero slot in your warband.
Just remember that unlike other armies, half your army can be in bows, use it to great effect. Additonally you want to start as far away as possible, but no more than 27" so you are still in bow range, now that thrown weapons are at -1 to hit when moving, Harad are probably the best shooting army in the game right now point for point.

 Krellnus wrote:

 KOBossy wrote:
I don't deny their badass-ness, I agree that they're all awesome. Though Haradrim Warriors have only a 3 Fight, so its the same as an Orc (though with a bow, a Haradrim Warrior comes out to being more expensive than an Orc with Shield). The thing the Haradrim really seem to excel at are Shooting, since they can have a potential 3+ shoot if upgraded. Its just that their bow strength sucks. Yes, you can reroll 1s thanks to Poison Arrows, but you still need a 6 to kill most guys, and having a 1 in 6 chance of a reroll to get that 6 is...well, let's just say it doesn't seem like it would factor in beyond the odd time.

And of course, there's the problem of that damned defense value. Its not like the Haradrim are Goblin cheap where you can hoard them. Even then, Goblins with Shields are still cheaper, and with a Shaman nearby casting channeled Fury, they've got a lot more staying power.

Anyone have thoughts on the Mahud or Abrakahn Guard? How about Heroes? Knight of Umbar seems really good.

The Knight of Umbar gets pretty pricy fast since he wants to be on a Fell Beast of some kind to get the most benefit out of his two abilities, especially since his magical abilities aren't too great when compared to other ringwraiths.
Want you really want for Harad is the Betrayer for the 1s and 2s on Poisoned Arrows and Blades as well as the Courage 6 staying power and then just take captains with bows to help supplement your shooting power whilst taking up the hero slot in your warband.
Just remember that unlike other armies, half your army can be in bows, use it to great effect. Additonally you want to start as far away as possible, but no more than 27" so you are still in bow range, now that thrown weapons are at -1 to hit when moving, Harad are probably the best shooting army in the game right now point for point.

That's weird, where does it say Harad can have a half bow limit? I didn't see that in the errata, or is it in the book? In any case, I probably glanced over it.

The Betrayer does sound nice for the reroll on 1s and 2s.

Also, aren't all ranged weapons -1 to hit when moving?


EDIT-double check the Hobbit rulebook and yes, its a -1 penalty to your Shoot Value if you move in the same turn. And you're right, Haradrim do have a 1/2 bow limit in squads that contain the specified units. It was tucked away on the side of the first page with the history of the army, that's why I didn't see it.

The Betrayer does sound good but 120 pts? That's a lot to pay for a unit that's basically going to sit back to give the archers that bonus. I mean, he does have Bane of Kings that allows him to reroll failed to wound rolls of his own, but that kind of requires him being in combat, away from the archers who should be hanging around the rear to capitalize on their range. I suppose he could be put on a horse and lead a warband of Serpent Riders and give them the bonus, which would be handy with their war spears, but I'd be weary of his fragility.

 KOBossy wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 KOBossy wrote:
I don't deny their badass-ness, I agree that they're all awesome. Though Haradrim Warriors have only a 3 Fight, so its the same as an Orc (though with a bow, a Haradrim Warrior comes out to being more expensive than an Orc with Shield). The thing the Haradrim really seem to excel at are Shooting, since they can have a potential 3+ shoot if upgraded. Its just that their bow strength sucks. Yes, you can reroll 1s thanks to Poison Arrows, but you still need a 6 to kill most guys, and having a 1 in 6 chance of a reroll to get that 6 is...well, let's just say it doesn't seem like it would factor in beyond the odd time.

And of course, there's the problem of that damned defense value. Its not like the Haradrim are Goblin cheap where you can hoard them. Even then, Goblins with Shields are still cheaper, and with a Shaman nearby casting channeled Fury, they've got a lot more staying power.

Anyone have thoughts on the Mahud or Abrakahn Guard? How about Heroes? Knight of Umbar seems really good.

The Knight of Umbar gets pretty pricy fast since he wants to be on a Fell Beast of some kind to get the most benefit out of his two abilities, especially since his magical abilities aren't too great when compared to other ringwraiths.
Want you really want for Harad is the Betrayer for the 1s and 2s on Poisoned Arrows and Blades as well as the Courage 6 staying power and then just take captains with bows to help supplement your shooting power whilst taking up the hero slot in your warband.
Just remember that unlike other armies, half your army can be in bows, use it to great effect. Additonally you want to start as far away as possible, but no more than 27" so you are still in bow range, now that thrown weapons are at -1 to hit when moving, Harad are probably the best shooting army in the game right now point for point.

That's weird, where does it say Harad can have a half bow limit? I didn't see that in the errata, or is it in the book? In any case, I probably glanced over it.

The Betrayer does sound nice for the reroll on 1s and 2s.

Also, aren't all ranged weapons -1 to hit when moving?

Should be right at the start of the Harad and Umbar list and will say something like, all warbands composed solely of haradrim warriors has a bow limit of a half instead of a third.

Yes, but don't underestimate the ability to move half distance and still shoot your bows, especially if the enemy has no shooting of his own, an extra 3-4 rounds of unreturnable damage for free is amazing.

 Krellnus wrote:

 KOBossy wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 KOBossy wrote:
I don't deny their badass-ness, I agree that they're all awesome. Though Haradrim Warriors have only a 3 Fight, so its the same as an Orc (though with a bow, a Haradrim Warrior comes out to being more expensive than an Orc with Shield). The thing the Haradrim really seem to excel at are Shooting, since they can have a potential 3+ shoot if upgraded. Its just that their bow strength sucks. Yes, you can reroll 1s thanks to Poison Arrows, but you still need a 6 to kill most guys, and having a 1 in 6 chance of a reroll to get that 6 is...well, let's just say it doesn't seem like it would factor in beyond the odd time.

And of course, there's the problem of that damned defense value. Its not like the Haradrim are Goblin cheap where you can hoard them. Even then, Goblins with Shields are still cheaper, and with a Shaman nearby casting channeled Fury, they've got a lot more staying power.

Anyone have thoughts on the Mahud or Abrakahn Guard? How about Heroes? Knight of Umbar seems really good.

The Knight of Umbar gets pretty pricy fast since he wants to be on a Fell Beast of some kind to get the most benefit out of his two abilities, especially since his magical abilities aren't too great when compared to other ringwraiths.
Want you really want for Harad is the Betrayer for the 1s and 2s on Poisoned Arrows and Blades as well as the Courage 6 staying power and then just take captains with bows to help supplement your shooting power whilst taking up the hero slot in your warband.
Just remember that unlike other armies, half your army can be in bows, use it to great effect. Additonally you want to start as far away as possible, but no more than 27" so you are still in bow range, now that thrown weapons are at -1 to hit when moving, Harad are probably the best shooting army in the game right now point for point.

That's weird, where does it say Harad can have a half bow limit? I didn't see that in the errata, or is it in the book? In any case, I probably glanced over it.

The Betrayer does sound nice for the reroll on 1s and 2s.

Also, aren't all ranged weapons -1 to hit when moving?

Should be right at the start of the Harad and Umbar list and will say something like, all warbands composed solely of haradrim warriors has a bow limit of a half instead of a third.

Yes, but don't underestimate the ability to move half distance and still shoot your bows, especially if the enemy has no shooting of his own, an extra 3-4 rounds of unreturnable damage for free is amazing.

Yep, I saw it. Wasn't aware of that, thanks for pointing it out.

I guess maybe I'm a bit vexed because when I've played, shooting rarely comes into play, and even when it does, it almost never kills anything. When you're facing armies like Isengard, Mordor (certain models), Dwarves and whatnot that are gifted with high defense, and you're only packing 2-3 strength on your bows, needing those constant 6s becomes a pain. Even if I face ranged armies, I'll just put my high defense units forward, let them soak up some hits (maybe a casualty or two) and charge the bowmen. Since they can't take a Shield, they're defense isn't as high and I end up wiping them out. Right now I view the bows as nice to have, but overall expendable. I'd so much rather take troops suited for close combat. At this point, I haven't played a game where shooting has been a huge factor, and as such haven't been overly impressed by what I see. The only time ranged weapons seem good are Throwing Weapons (since its essentially a free attack before you charge) and Uruk-Hai Crossbows (since their strength is high enough to make a legitimate difference). Even Dwarf bows and Elf bows have their moments. But the regular bows and Orc bows...never gone a game without killing the odd figure and then they become useless as the armies move closer together. Even with the sweet reroll the Betrayer grants, you still end up having to make a 1/6 roll to kill, and the odds just seem so low. Sure you can mass them, but it'll contribute maybe a few extra kills, and when the enemy closes in, you're in trouble. They've simply never contributed enough in a game to make me feel they're worthwhile (regular and Orc bows, that is).
,
You think it might be worth taking the Warriors of Karna upgrade to increase their Shoot so that they only need a 4+ instead of 5+ to hit when moving (not to mention a 3+ when standing still)?