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rigeld2 wrote:
And then you read page 125 which says it can't be done the turn you deep strike.

Seriously - why are you ignoring page 125?

I haven't read it yet thats why and nobody is quoting what it does. Guess I'll just need to read it when I get home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
The Chip also doesn't give you the option to use it you HAVE to use it you just get to choose what it does.

I'm going to have to let others argue about this until I read the rule properly. But in your opinion what do you think is the interpretation of this?

It states "At the start of the bearers movement phase, choose one of the following rules... blah blah blah rest of the rules"

It does not give you the option to not use it, so you aren't really using it as much as it has to happen.

So in a tournament if you feel like being a D*** and your enemy takes this and doesn't declare what he is using you can tell the judge he is cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with the rules regaurding reserves the FAQ says you choose the order. IE you choose for your reserves to come in before anything else happens. As long as you deploy them prior to moving other units not coming in by reserves.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
It states "At the start of the bearers movement phase, choose one of the following rules... blah blah blah rest of the rules"

It does not give you the option to not use it, so you aren't really using it as much as it has to happen.

So in a tournament if you feel like being a D*** and your enemy takes this and doesn't declare what he is using you can tell the judge he is cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with the rules regaurding reserves the FAQ says you choose the order. IE you choose for your reserves to come in before anything else happens. As long as you deploy them prior to moving other units not coming in by reserves.

And none of that matters at all to the issue in question. I'll quote the relevant part of the rule since no one has decided to read it.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Bold is mine. The order is irrelevant - if it has to be used at the start of the turn (it does) it can't be if you just arrived from reserves.

Seriously - it was cited previously. Continuing the argument without knowing all the rules involved is less than polite.

Wouldn't that invalidate any Ultra Marine chapter tactics for units coming in from deep strike then? IE Turn 1 you delcare Tac Doctrine and drop your tac squads, so they wouldn't get this rule because they came in from reserve?

 Lemartes12 wrote:
Wouldn't that invalidate any Ultra Marine chapter tactics for units coming in from deep strike then? IE Turn 1 you delcare Tac Doctrine and drop your tac squads, so they wouldn't get this rule because they came in from reserve?

Is the Tac Squad using the ability? If so, it can't.
Is it something else using that ability? Is so, there's no issue.

I posted the FAQ because I feel it is relevant to the nature of some of the rules in question, in particular the duel use of terminology in this section which is sadly not an unusual phenomenon in Game Workshop rules. I foresaw the argument against the wording on page 125 and how it would relate to the rules that 'must be used at the start of the movement phase' because of the different terms. The FAQ shows that other instance where these rules interact they should be treated in the same way on the grounds they are effecting the same point in time. Blessings and reserves are used as the most common example, but that doesn't mean other rules are immune simply because they are not listed in an example, and many special abilities do contain the limitation that they can only be used at the start of the movement phase.

So why would page 125 have wasted so much ink specifically stating special abilities if none where meant to be effected?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Tac Squad is an interesting question but I will have to be quick as I need to get to work:

I would allow it, but it is a RAI argument more then not.

The limiter in question is not related to any unit but to the table as a whole. It is one of three rules in a sub-set designed to create a turn wide effect that benefits every unit in a different way, none of which trigger at the start of a movement phase or turn. As it is not a rule granted by an individual identifiable model, unlike the pure tide that clearly states bearer or a special rule found only on a warlord, it would be very difficult to state which model is actually the 'evoking' party. Without being able to tell whom is evoking, it is hard to argue that the unit disembarking is the evoking party. When that party benefits from the special rule it is already far past the start of the turn and that is all that matters for page 125.

Basically; it is a list wide rule and those are best considered 'evoked by the player' unless otherwise stated.

rigeld2 wrote:
And none of that matters at all to the issue in question. I'll quote the relevant part of the rule since no one has decided to read it.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Bold is mine. The order is irrelevant - if it has to be used at the start of the turn (it does) it can't be if you just arrived from reserves.

Seriously - it was cited previously. Continuing the argument without knowing all the rules involved is less than polite.

The rule for Tau states this though.

"At the start of the bearers movement phase, choose one of the following special rules:................"

The FAQ might say that the turn & the movement phase start at the same time BUT that does not mean that they equate each other. Start of the turn IS NOT the same as the start of the movement phase. Also the wording says at the start of THE BEARERS movement phase, not just the movement phase in general but the models particular movement phase which will start once he deepstrikes. The wording you are saying would mean that Psykers would not get to do their spells after deepstriking since they cast them at the start of the movement phase, but funnily enough the FAQ you cited actually confirms that it is allowed.

The rule on page 125 also says "use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn". The puretide chip is not an ability it is a piece of wargear and the special rules it bestows are NOT USED AT THE START OF THE TURN, they are used in the shooting or assault phases of the game. For instance, the term special rules is referencing the special rules section of the rulebook. As such:

Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter - Used in the shooting phase, so it irrelevant to the rule on page 125 of the rulebook.
Stubbourn - Shooting and Assault phase, so it is irrelevant to the rule on page 125 of the rulebook.
Counter Attack/Furious Charge - Assault phase, so it is irrelevant to the rule on page 125 of the rulebook.

In other words you can use the puretide chip because it is a piece of war gear. IT IS NOT AN ABILITY OR SPECIAL RULE IN ITSELF. The special abilities it confers also happen after the movement phase and in the shooting phase/assault phase.

The rule you are referencing is to declare that abilities or special rules THAT GET USED at the start of the turn are not allowed after deepstriking. This is because the chance to use them has passed.

 DarthOvious wrote:
The FAQ might say that the turn & the movement phase start at the same time BUT that does not mean that they equate each other.

They really do.

The wording you are saying would mean that Psykers would not get to do their spells after deepstriking since they cast them at the start of the movement phase, but funnily enough the FAQ you cited actually confirms that it is allowed.

No, funnily enough you're misreading the FAQ. Also, page 67 disallows Psykers from casting blessings/maledictions the turn they arrive.

The rule on page 125 also says "use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn". The puretide chip is not an ability it is a piece of wargear and the special rules it bestows are NOT USED AT THE START OF THE TURN, they are used in the shooting or assault phases of the game. For instance, the term special rules is referencing the special rules section of the rulebook. As such:

When does it bestow the special rule? That's what you look at, not what the special rule does.

In other words you can use the puretide chip because it is a piece of war gear. IT IS NOT AN ABILITY OR SPECIAL RULE IN ITSELF.

Caps is cruise control for cool. You can tone it down and no one would mind.
War Gear grants abilities. PEC's ability is to grant special rules. When do you use that ability?

The rule you are referencing is to declare that abilities or special rules THAT GET USED at the start of the turn are not allowed after deepstriking. This is because the chance to use them has passed.

And PEC is used at the start of the turn.

rigeld2 wrote:

They really do.

Do they? The FAQ just said it happens at the same time. It did not equate them. So what are you using to state this?

No, funnily enough you're misreading the FAQ. Also, page 67 disallows Psykers from casting blessings/maledictions the turn they arrive.

OK, I have read that now and I agree.

When does it bestow the special rule? That's what you look at, not what the special rule does.

No actually. The rule just says you can't use any abilities or special rules at the start of the movement phase if deepstriking. Read it again.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

The special rules conferred do not get used at the start of the movement phase. They get used in the shooting & assault phases.

Caps is cruise control for cool. You can tone it down and no one would mind.
War Gear grants abilities. PEC's ability is to grant special rules. When do you use that ability?

I'm using caps to highlight important wording I am using. Sorry if it seems if I am screaming but I am not. I am just highlighting the important parts of what I am saying.

Wargear are not abilities so it doesn't matter. For instance jump packs are wargear and you can use them when deepstriking at the start of the movement phase. So obviously wargear can be used when deepstriking. The special rules are not being used at the start of the movement phase, so it doesn't''t matter. The wording of the Tau rule also says you pick one special rule and that's it. It doesn't say you may pick one ability, it says that you pick one and the unit has that rule. In other words I need to pick a rule from the list.

And PEC is used at the start of the turn.

Yes, but it is wargear. It is not an ability or special rule & the special rules it confers don't get used in the movement phase. A piece or wargear =/= an ability. It may confer an ability or special rule but as long as those abilities or special rules don't get used at the start of the movement then you are fine. The Tau Rule also says this:

"At the start of the bearers movement phase, choose one of the following special rules:................"

So I have to choose one of the special rules. It also says I do it at the start of the bearers movement phase, not the turn movement phase.

So once again, the rules states:

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

I am not using an ability or special rule at the start of the movement phase, so what is the problem?

This is backed up by the fact that the special rules section in Tau Codex does not include the PEN. The PEN is listed under Signature Systems. So According to the Tau Codex the PEN is not a special rule.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

They really do.

Do they? The FAQ just said it happens at the same time. It did not equate them. So what are you using to state this?

Cite the phase prior to the start of the movement phase. Please prove it exists - you're asserting it does.

When does it bestow the special rule? That's what you look at, not what the special rule does.

No actually. The rule just says you can't use any abilities or special rules at the start of the movement phase if deepstriking. Read it again.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

The special rules conferred do not get used at the start of the movement phase. They get used in the shooting & assault phases.

That's not what I'm saying. I don't care about the special rules that are conferred - they're irrelevant.

Wargear are not abilities so it doesn't matter. For instance jump packs are wargear and you can use them when deepstriking at the start of the movement phase. So obviously wargear can be used when deepstriking. The special rules are not being used at the start of the movement phase, so it doesn't''t matter. The wording of the Tau rule also says you pick one special rule and that's it. It doesn't say you may pick one ability, it says that you pick one and the unit has that rule. In other words I need to pick a rule from the list.

Your jump pack comparison highlights your misunderstanding.
Movement isn't an ability. Conferring a special rule on yourself is.
Is it an ability?
Are you attempting to use it at the start of the turn?

I am not using an ability or special rule at the start of the movement phase, so what is the problem?

This is backed up by the fact that the special rules section in Tau Codex does not include the PEN. The PEN is listed under Signature Systems. So According to the Tau Codex the PEN is not a special rule.

So Wargear cannot ever grant special rules or abilities? That's what you're asserting.

rigeld2 wrote:

Cite the phase prior to the start of the movement phase. Please prove it exists - you're asserting it does.

Strawman. I didn't say that there was a phase before the movement phase. All I said was that the movement phase & the start of the turn are not equated. They happen at the same time, but start of the turn and start of the movement phase do not equate to each other and the FAQ cited does not equate them. It clarrifys that they happen at the same time but it does not equate them.

As a planner this is pretty common in my line of work. Its called parallel working. Things can happen at the same time. Activity A & Activity B can both be done at the same time, however this does not mean that Activity A = Activity B.

That's not what I'm saying. I don't care about the special rules that are conferred - they're irrelevant.

So whats the problem? What stops me from using wargear at the start of the movement phase? even if the wargear gets used at all.

Your jump pack comparison highlights your misunderstanding.
Movement isn't an ability. Conferring a special rule on yourself is.

Citation from rule book please. Wargear is not using an ability. I don't understand where you are getting this from.

Is it an ability?

No its not an ability. That is what I am saying. A piece of wargear is not an ability. Let me ask you a question. Is a Boltgun an ability? Are Krak Grenades an ability? Are Jump Packs an ability?

Are you attempting to use it at the start of the turn?

Not really. It doesn't get used. It just confers a rule onto your unit every turn. It literally just says pick an ability and you have it. Read the rule again:

"At the start of the bearers movement phase, choose one of the following special rules:................"

It doesn't say I am using it. I am just picking a special rule from the list given. It also says I have to pick one and it has that rule for the turn. If I don't pick a special rule then I am breaking the wargear rule.

So Wargear cannot ever grant special rules or abilities? That's what you're asserting.

It doesn't matter if it grants them, the rule on page 125 just says you can't use special rules or abilities that are done at the start of the movement phase. Granting rules is completely different from using rules. The rules don't actually get used until the shooting or assault phases. So I am not using any special rules or abilities at the start of the movement phase. So everything is good.

EDIT:

To add weight to my argument lets use Logans High King special rule as a comparison.

On page 56 of the Space Wolf codex it says this:

"..............................Such is his skill at command that you may choose one of the following special rules at the beginning of each turn: Fearless, Tank Hunters, Relentless, Preferred Enenmy......................."

So Logans Rule is actually a rule that says at the beginning of each turn.

The FAQ for this ability says this:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3440040a_Space_Wolves_v1.3_September_13.pdf

Q: Can Logan Grimnar benefit from his The High King special rule
the turn he arrives from reserves? And can Logan use The High
King special rule at the beginning of the opponent’s turn? (p56)
A: Yes and yes.

Logan's FAQ cinched it.

They are worded the same, and the same abilities are granted even.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Logan's FAQ cinched it.

They are worded the same, and the same abilities are granted even.

Yeah, it just suddenly occurred to me that Logan did the same thing and that is was a well known tactic to put Logan in a drop pod with Long Fangs. So right enough, after checking the FAQ I saw it. I would still say that wargear is not an ability or Special rule in itself though.

Many codex rules are in violation of BRB rules, until you can show an exemption for the one you have in particular, the BRB rule would stand. Logan can do unique things that no one else can, that does not mean everyone can.

I will need to read more on Logan and how the FAQ relates to the PureTide Engram Chip before I can state for sure how it sways my view on the 'start of the movement phase.' There are certain aspects that could render this FAQ limited to just the one character, or it could be used for precedent grounds. I do not have the resources right now and will have to refrain from commenting on it till I can do some more in depth research. It would be nice to have something I could use to over come page 125, as the PureTide is something I consider a high priority and the only downside it has is page 125.

As for the 'war-gear is not an ability or special rule' I still have to disagree.

Everything, everything , everything , is a basic or specialized rule of which the vast majority falls under the 'specialized' side of those two categories. When you use a piece of war-gear you are evoking a special rule granted by being in 'possession' of that piece of war-gear. For example; the weapon profile for a boltgun is nothing more then a list of special rules that are evoked when you fire said weapon. This is all covered in the first section of the rule book, unfortunately I do not know the exact page off the top of my head but I want to say around 9 or 10. It doesn't matter if the rule is granted by a piece of war-gear or straight to the model itself, it is still a special rule as defined by the book and can be limited by anything that states it affects 'special rule.'

It is actually part of a problem for certain rule debates because we do not have guidance on how to resolve conflicts between certain specialized rules.

Fragile wrote:
Many codex rules are in violation of BRB rules, until you can show an exemption for the one you have in particular, the BRB rule would stand. Logan can do unique things that no one else can, that does not mean everyone can.

Actually, you are instructed in the rulebook to do the opposite. When a contradiction occurs you are instructed to go with the codex.

Though granted there are situations where that further breaks things thanks to GW's splendid writing ability.

JinxDragon wrote:
I will need to read more on Logan and how the FAQ relates to the PureTide Engram Chip before I can state for sure how it sways my view on the 'start of the movement phase.' There are certain aspects that could render this FAQ limited to just the one character, or it could be used for precedent grounds. I do not have the resources right now and will have to refrain from commenting on it till I can do some more in depth research. It would be nice to have something I could use to over come page 125, as the PureTide is something I consider a high priority and the only downside it has is page 125.

Fair enough. I would say there is a better argument for the PEN, since Logan's rule is an actual ability he has and it has been ruled FAQ that he can use it. I've already made my argument for the PEN.

As for the 'war-gear is not an ability or special rule' I still have to disagree.

Everything, everything , everything , is a basic or specialized rule of which the vast majority falls under the 'specialized' side of those two categories. When you use a piece of war-gear you are evoking a special rule granted by being in 'possession' of that piece of war-gear. For example; the weapon profile for a boltgun is nothing more then a list of special rules that are evoked when you fire said weapon. This is all covered in the first section of the rule book, unfortunately I do not know the exact page off the top of my head but I want to say around 9 or 10. It doesn't matter if the rule is granted by a piece of war-gear or straight to the model itself, it is still a special rule as defined by the book and can be limited by anything that states it affects 'special rule.'

It is actually part of a problem for certain rule debates because we do not have guidance on how to resolve conflicts between certain specialized rules.

The rulebook lists them as actual game mechanics in a section called special rules. The Tau codex also has a section on the back sheet that lists special rules for the army. The PEN doesn't come under either of them. In the Tau codex it comes under signature systems. I know that the special rules section of the book does say it is not an exhaustive list, but the PEN isn't a special rule in itself, it just confers special rules which can be done in the shooting/assault phase of the game.

Page 7 of the BRB also has this to say:

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in the codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence".

Page 9 also says this:

"While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally discover exceptions to the general turn sequence laid out here, when things are worked out as they occur rather than in any strict order. At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur. Occasionally, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit, or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need to resolve it."

The order these things happens in is irrelevant - you are coming in from reserve, and you have to use this special rule at the start of the movement phase. Page 125 outright forbids this from occurring

There is no conflict - for there to be a conflict the Codex would have to state "even when arriving from reserves".

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The order these things happens in is irrelevant - you are coming in from reserve, and you have to use this special rule at the start of the movement phase. Page 125 outright forbids this from occurring

There is no conflict - for there to be a conflict the Codex would have to state "even when arriving from reserves".

The FAQ on Logan , which is the same wording, and same effects even, show what you posted above to not be the case.

No, the FAQ on Logan shows that they altered the rules to allow Logan to do this

Please, show where this FAQ allows anyone else to do this. Page and graph.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the FAQ on Logan shows that they altered the rules to allow Logan to do this

Please, show where this FAQ allows anyone else to do this. Page and graph.

Well:
-There is nothing that says you can't choose a special rule prior to entering the board.
-If two things happen at the same time (at the start if the movement phase) the player gets to choose the order they occure.
-No ability is being used, one is just being chosen, which does not counter any rules.
-Logan's FAQ changed no wording, it just says it can happen. So a different model with a rule worded the same way would get the same ruling. If they actually changed his rule, it would have been errata'd not FAQd.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the FAQ on Logan shows that they altered the rules to allow Logan to do this

Please, show where this FAQ allows anyone else to do this. Page and graph.

Well:
-There is nothing that says you can't choose a special rule prior to entering the board.
-If two things happen at the same time (at the start if the movement phase) the player gets to choose the order they occure.
-No ability is being used, one is just being chosen, which does not counter any rules.
-Logan's FAQ changed no wording, it just says it can happen. So a different model with a rule worded the same way would get the same ruling. If they actually changed his rule, it would have been errata'd not FAQd.

So what you're saying is that while there is no rule to allow it, Logan's special rule provides a precedent?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the FAQ on Logan shows that they altered the rules to allow Logan to do this

Please, show where this FAQ allows anyone else to do this. Page and graph.

Well:
-There is nothing that says you can't choose a special rule prior to entering the board.
-If two things happen at the same time (at the start if the movement phase) the player gets to choose the order they occure.
-No ability is being used, one is just being chosen, which does not counter any rules.
-Logan's FAQ changed no wording, it just says it can happen. So a different model with a rule worded the same way would get the same ruling. If they actually changed his rule, it would have been errata'd not FAQd.

So what you're saying is that while there is no rule to allow it, Logan's special rule provides a precedent?

Yes

And nothing that disallows it. Where a rule is just being chosen, not used, nothing prevents it from happening. Unlike powers that are used in the movement phase. Nothing is being used, just selected.

The rule on page 124 doesn't apply to rules that must be used.
It applies to rules that must be used at the start of the turn.

It's not choosing to use the rule that bans it. You're choosing to use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn. Therefore the rule on p124 comes into effect.

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule on page 124 doesn't apply to rules that must be used.
It applies to rules that must be used at the start of the turn.

It's not choosing to use the rule that bans it. You're choosing to use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn. Therefore the rule on p124 comes into effect.

Well Logans ability comes into affect at the start of the turn and that was FAQd to be aloowed when deepstriking. Its true that if they changed the ruling it would have been errated and not FAQd. So In essence it does set a precedent.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule on page 124 doesn't apply to rules that must be used.
It applies to rules that must be used at the start of the turn.

It's not choosing to use the rule that bans it. You're choosing to use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn. Therefore the rule on p124 comes into effect.

Well Logans ability comes into affect at the start of the turn and that was FAQd to be aloowed when deepstriking. Its true that if they changed the ruling it would have been errated and not FAQd. So In essence it does set a precedent.

GW changes rules using FAQs all the time.
Using Logan's FAQ to argue precedent is an argument of intent.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule on page 124 doesn't apply to rules that must be used.
It applies to rules that must be used at the start of the turn.

It's not choosing to use the rule that bans it. You're choosing to use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn. Therefore the rule on p124 comes into effect.

Well Logans ability comes into affect at the start of the turn and that was FAQd to be aloowed when deepstriking. Its true that if they changed the ruling it would have been errated and not FAQd. So In essence it does set a precedent.

Tyranid ICs cannot join a unit in a spore pod, therefore by that reasoning, no other army's ICs can join units either in drop pods. ( Using the Logan example for context.)

Fragile wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule on page 124 doesn't apply to rules that must be used.
It applies to rules that must be used at the start of the turn.

It's not choosing to use the rule that bans it. You're choosing to use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn. Therefore the rule on p124 comes into effect.

Well Logans ability comes into affect at the start of the turn and that was FAQd to be aloowed when deepstriking. Its true that if they changed the ruling it would have been errated and not FAQd. So In essence it does set a precedent.

Tyranid ICs cannot join a unit in a spore pod, therefore by that reasoning, no other army's ICs can join units either in drop pods. ( Using the Logan example for context.)

Well its a good thing that other armies don't use Spore Pods or Tyranid units.

The problem with this argument is one FAQ it talking about unit interactions, while the other FAQ is talking about the timing of a special rule. The PEN and Logan's The High King both have the same wording, save for Logan's applies on every turn.

No, its about a basic rule that says ICs can join units in drop pods. But then, for no explained reason a FAQ says Tyranids cannot. That FAQ changes the rules.

You cannot use start of turn powers when you come in from reserve. Then for no explained reason, its says Logan can. This FAQ breaks a rule.

You cannot use a FAQ answer for anything other than what it specifically addresses. You cannot claim precedent or you can start pulling your ICs out of your droppods with your Sternguard vets.

Fragile wrote:
No, its about a basic rule that says ICs can join units in drop pods. But then, for no explained reason a FAQ says Tyranids cannot. That FAQ changes the rules.

You cannot use start of turn powers when you come in from reserve. Then for no explained reason, its says Logan can. This FAQ breaks a rule.

You cannot use a FAQ answer for anything other than what it specifically addresses. You cannot claim precedent or you can start pulling your ICs out of your droppods with your Sternguard vets.

But you are not using a power. Which IS disallowed.

You are selecting one. Which is not disallowed.