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Now your trying to argue semantics. Using the chip IS using a special that must be used at the start of the turn which is disallowed

Well. Semantic is RAW, is it not.

So your argument is that the Puretide chip is not a special rule or ability. Then what might it be ?

It's just wargear that let's you choose a special rule.

None of the rules it confers affect the movement phase.


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It would be like saying a combo plasma gun can't shoot the plasma the turn it deep strikes in.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
It's just wargear that let's you choose a special rule.

None of the rules it confers affect the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be like saying a combo plasma gun can't shoot the plasma the turn it deep strikes in.

No, it's not. The combi has no rule saying it must be used at the start of the movement phase.
Come up with a relevant example please.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
It's just wargear that let's you choose a special rule.

None of the rules it confers affect the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be like saying a combo plasma gun can't shoot the plasma the turn it deep strikes in.

No, it's not. The combi has no rule saying it must be used at the start of the movement phase.
Come up with a relevant example please.

The chip is not being used at the start of the movement phase either. The chips effects happen on the shooting phase (or later) just like the combi.

No, the decision is not made in the shooting phase - that's been proven.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the decision is not made in the shooting phase - that's been proven.

That's it, its just a decision. What rules disbar me from making decisions? I wouldn't be able to move forward with the game if I couldn't make any decisions. So I deep strike in but alas I'm not allowed to make decisions any more according to you.

So, decisions are disbarred from being made after deep striking?

Pg.#?

The chip itself does have a limitation on it stating 'start of the movement phase.' It matters not that the Puretide is a rule that grants access to secondary special rules, evoked at a later time. All that matters is the timing in which the original rule is used, that being that you chose which rule you use at the start of the movement phase. If you are denied permission to grant a model the secondary special rule in the first place then there is no way for you to be able to state you have said secondary rule to use at a later point in time.

Still not entirely sure where to lie on the question of the 'can it be used coming from reserves' now though, all thanks to that FAQ.

Prior to this I would of been under the impression that anything under the very broad category of 'abilities and special rules' would of counted. The FAQ and the chamber tactic question has me doubting if those terms are designed to be as broadly interpenetrated. The first because we have a near identical rule being given permission to ignore page 125 and the second because page 125 never addressed table wide abilities that are not triggered by any specific model. It is now something I would like to see addressed by a FAQ specific for it, or even better to see page 125 addressed so it is far more clear what they intend.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the decision is not made in the shooting phase - that's been proven.

That's it, its just a decision. What rules disbar me from making decisions? I wouldn't be able to move forward with the game if I couldn't make any decisions. So I deep strike in but alas I'm not allowed to make decisions any more according to you.

No, it's a decision that happens because of an ability. And what's denied on the turn you deep strike?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the decision is not made in the shooting phase - that's been proven.

That's it, its just a decision. What rules disbar me from making decisions? I wouldn't be able to move forward with the game if I couldn't make any decisions. So I deep strike in but alas I'm not allowed to make decisions any more according to you.

No, it's a decision that happens because of wargear. And what's denied on the turn you deep strike?

Fixed that for you. If you still think the wargear can't be used then so be it, but it is not an ability. I have already stated this, wargear in itself is not an ability. It confers special rules & abilities which get used in the movement and shooting phases of the game but it is not an ability. It is under the signature systems area of the codex. Of course there is also the discussion of whether or not it is a rule anyway. Does it constitute a special rule, a basic rule or a codex rule.

All in all, I think the Tau players should be able to use it. There is just too much difference in the wording I don't really see how it can be enforced. Following arguments noted:

1) FAQ for Logan allows him to use his ability. People have already referred to an FAQ to try and link start of movement to being equal to start of turn, so it cannot be discounted. If you discount it as being invalid becase the guys who wrote it don't know what they are doing then the previous FAQ cited must be invalid on the same basis.

2) Wording says start of bearers movement phase. So it doesn't list start of turn & it doesn't even list start of the overall movement phase. It lists the start of the BEAERS movement phase. Without any FAQ to address what exactly this means and how the bearers movement phase relates to the overall movement phase then I don't see how this discussion can be taken forward.

3) It doesn't say the PEN is used, it just says that an ability must be chosen. It basically says pick an ability, the unit has that ability until his next movement phase.

4) The PEN is a piece of wargear, it is not listed under the special rules section of the Tau codex but is listed under signature systems. It is also doubted if it can be classified as an ability when it is a piece of wargear and not a skill that the Tau model has learned. i.e. it is mechanical not physical. Without clarification from GW and a FAQ on this, it is difficult to assert that the PEN has limitations.

Are you saying Wargear can never grant an ability?
So the Ork wargear "Docs Tools" doesn't grant FNP?

 DarthOvious wrote:
1) FAQ for Logan allows him to use his ability. People have already referred to an FAQ to try and link start of movement to being equal to start of turn, so it cannot be discounted. If you discount it as being invalid becase the guys who wrote it don't know what they are doing then the previous FAQ cited must be invalid on the same basis.

The FAQ for Logan's ability applies to Logan's ability, not every ability used at the start of the movement phase.
This is an exception to the rule on p124, not a blanket excuse to ignore the rule.

 grendel083 wrote:
Are you saying Wargear can never grant an ability?
So the Ork wargear "Docs Tools" doesn't grant FNP?

This has been covered, the special rules granted are all used in the shooting or assault phases of the game. So none of them are used at the start of the turn which the rule on Page 125 states. All thats done at the start of the bearers movement phase is that the rule to be used is nominated. It basically says, pick a rule and you have that rule until the bearers next movement phase.

As per FAQ for Logan, he does a similar thing, except his wording says at the start of the turn pick a rule and the unit he is with gets that rule. This comes from his "The High King" ability. There are differences between Logan & the PEN but the differences favour the PEN being allowed to do it anyway. Differences are:

1) PEN says start of the bearers movement phase, Logan says start of the turn.

2) PEN is a signature system and thus is wargear. Logan's "The High King", I would argue is an ability. It's something that Logan can do and has learned through skill. Some people may argue its a special rule but I wouldn't say it was. I see special rules as being the rules listed as special rules in the BRB or even under codex in the special rules entries. I am aware that the BRB says that the rules listed in the special rules section are not an exhaustive list, but I believe that anything else is listed under special rules sections of the new codices, of which Space Wolves do not have yet, so it is hard to tell.

Considering that the rule on Page 125 says that an ability or special rule which is used at the start of the turn cannot be used in the turn a unit deepstrikes but Logan has been FAQd to be OK when he deepstrikes then I really don't see how they can claim it applies to the PEN when it doesn't even apply for Logan. All people have said so far is that the FAQ writers are stupid and changed the rules, but I think it shows that the rule on Page 125 was probably not meant for these types of things and were meant for something else. It indicates that being able to choose special rules for later stages in the game is fine and OK, but it is barred for special rules or abilities that are actually used at the start of turn, maybe even movement phase if indeed they are supposed to be the same thing like some people say. An example of this is psychic powers and the fact that Benedictions are done are the start of the movement phase.

The FAQ for Logan's ability applies to Logan's ability, not every ability used at the start of the movement phase.
This is an exception to the rule on p124, not a blanket excuse to ignore the rule.

This was done in the FAQ section and not the errata section. I know some people have argued that rules have been changed in the FAQ section before, but if this is the case then it sets a precendent because the only reason why they would do such a thing is because the rule isn't really meant to work like that to begin with.

If they wanted to change Logans ability then they could have used the errata to change the wording. The fact it was acknowledged in the FAQ would seem to suggest that they never intended for the rule to be used in that manner.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Are you saying Wargear can never grant an ability?
So the Ork wargear "Docs Tools" doesn't grant FNP?

This has been covered, the special rules granted are all used in the shooting or assault phases of the game. So none of them are used at the start of the turn which the rule on Page 125 states. All thats done at the start of the bearers movement phase is that the rule to be used is nominated. It basically says, pick a rule and you have that rule until the bearers next movement phase.

No - your interpretation cannot be correct. The unit does not have those special rules. The wargear gives you the ability to choose one of those special rules.
You're ignoring the middle fact - that the wargear gives you the ability to choose. That's your mistake.


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 DarthOvious wrote:
If they wanted to change Logans ability then they could have used the errata to change the wording. The fact it was acknowledged in the FAQ would seem to suggest that they never intended for the rule to be used in that manner.

How is that relevant? GW changes rules in FAQs frequently. And even if you're going to (incorrectly) assert it's not a rule change how does that give precedent to anything? Or are you going to agree that precedent says ICs cannot embark into transports during deployment based on the Tyranid FAQ denying ICs entry into mycetic spores?

Darth - yes, you make a choice. That choice has an effect that something is used - you go from not having monster hunter to having monster hunter

You are using an ability. You then may not ever use the consequence of that ability (the rule, for example MH) that turn, but have still had to do something in order to have that chance.

Page 125 flat out restricts this, with no RAW reasoning otherwise. Logan has a specific exception allowing his THK ability to function, despite it also often granting a rule (relentless) that only applies during the shooting phase.

Rob

you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd

Unfortunately they haven't FAQ'd anything in months unless it was a missprinting in the codex.

Also this is You Make Da Call, there is no arbitrator here but brute force.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd

You're assuming I haven't.
You'd be wrong. That's what you get for assuming.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd

You're assuming I haven't.
You'd be wrong. That's what you get for assuming.

Now your assuming that im assuming. I am merely suggesting an alternative, seeing as everyone keeps making the same arguement.

Actually you gave an exclusive statement - do this OR this, with no possibility for and / or. ANd rigeld proved your assumption, that there is only an OR, wrong, by doing both.

So "you guys can...." is a false statement, based on a faulty assumption. No assumption required to show that, just logic

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Actually you gave an exclusive statement - do this OR this, with no possibility for and / or. ANd rigeld proved your assumption, that there is only an OR, wrong, by doing both.

So "you guys can...." is a false statement, based on a faulty assumption. No assumption required to show that, just logic

Take it how you want to. Either way your going come up with the assume that the assumption was made that i was assuming..... Either way has everyone in this thread sent the message to GW asking for the FAQ or are we to assume that everyone has or hasn't... which gos back to the orinigal statement where the assumption of assuming was made.

"Lemartes12 wrote:
you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd.

Seems more of a generall statement toward the whole of the thread rather than targeting one specific person.


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and

 Nilok wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd

Unfortunately they haven't FAQ'd anything in months unless it was a missprinting in the codex.

Also this is You Make Da Call, there is no arbitrator here but brute force.

This goes with the Phrase "the sqeaky wheel gets the grease" enough people keep sending them emails they will be more inclined to answer it. Hence why i suggested everyone just emails GW about it.

One guy DIDNT, meaning your statement was false - you gave no choice.

NO assumption made on mine or Rigelds part, just literally showing your error.

Haha Internet Heros, where would the world be with you.

NOthing heroic about pointing out others mistakes. The obstinacy of those who refuse to admit their error is always fun, and the defensiveness / dismissal of others is a classic, as well.

^
This is what i was talking about.
Anyway interested in seeing how they FAQ it. IMO im going to have to go with the wargear thing. Otherwise RAW would disallow some chapter tactics from affecting marines based off the wording.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Are you saying Wargear can never grant an ability?
So the Ork wargear "Docs Tools" doesn't grant FNP?

This has been covered, the special rules granted are all used in the shooting or assault phases of the game. So none of them are used at the start of the turn which the rule on Page 125 states. All thats done at the start of the bearers movement phase is that the rule to be used is nominated. It basically says, pick a rule and you have that rule until the bearers next movement phase.

No - your interpretation cannot be correct. The unit does not have those special rules. The wargear gives you the ability to choose one of those special rules.
You're ignoring the middle fact - that the wargear gives you the ability to choose. That's your mistake.

There is no rule which limits you from CHOOSING. It only limits you using special abilities. The PEN is not a special ability.
According to you Boltguns are special abilities. Jump packs are special abilties. Wargear are NOT abilities or special rules in themselves.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthOvious wrote:
If they wanted to change Logans ability then they could have used the errata to change the wording. The fact it was acknowledged in the FAQ would seem to suggest that they never intended for the rule to be used in that manner.

How is that relevant? GW changes rules in FAQs frequently. And even if you're going to (incorrectly) assert it's not a rule change how does that give precedent to anything? Or are you going to agree that precedent says ICs cannot embark into transports during deployment based on the Tyranid FAQ denying ICs entry into mycetic spores?

Even if it was a rule change what rule did they change? They didn't errata the wording of the codex so does that then mean they changed the rule in the book? I think its clear here that the rule wasn't to be interpretated the way you are looking at it. Otherwise they would have just said no to Logan. The fact they said yes is proof that they don't want the rule on page 125 to be used that way.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Darth - yes, you make a choice. That choice has an effect that something is used - you go from not having monster hunter to having monster hunter

Yes.

You are using an ability. You then may not ever use the consequence of that ability (the rule, for example MH) that turn, but have still had to do something in order to have that chance.

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

Page 125 flat out restricts this, with no RAW reasoning otherwise. Logan has a specific exception allowing his THK ability to function, despite it also often granting a rule (relentless) that only applies during the shooting phase.

Rob

Page 125 does not restrict it. Read it again. It resticts Special rules or abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn when deepstriking. Monster Hunter is not used at the start of the turn.

What is in question here is if the wargear to nominate the rule can be used or not because the decision is made at the start of the turn. As I said though, wargear in itself is not an ability or specail rule. The PEN isn't even listed under the Tau Special Rules, it is listed in the signature systems area of the codex. The wording doesn't even say that the PEN is used, the rules says pick a rule, you have that rule. It doesn't give me an option to not use it. Its says I pick a rule and I have that rule.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
^
This is what i was talking about.
Anyway interested in seeing how they FAQ it. IMO im going to have to go with the wargear thing. Otherwise RAW would disallow some chapter tactics from affecting marines based off the wording.

Exactly, the way they are reading it is preposterous. Space Marine Chapter Traits would be useless for deepstriking units.

 DarthOvious wrote:

There is no rule which limits you from CHOOSING. It only limits you using special abilities. The PEN is not a special ability.
According to you Boltguns are special abilities. Jump packs are special abilties. Wargear are NOT abilities or special rules in themselves.

No, wargear grant abilities. Wargear can also allow you to shoot, etc. but they also can grant special rules or abilities. One of those abilities would be to grant a special rule upon the bearer. What does the PEC do?

Even if it was a rule change what rule did they change?

That ICs are allowed to join units prior to deployment.

They didn't errata the wording of the codex so does that then mean they changed the rule in the book? I think its clear here that the rule wasn't to be interpretated the way you are looking at it. Otherwise they would have just said no to Logan. The fact they said yes is proof that they don't want the rule on page 125 to be used that way.

In Logan's specific case. The FAQ is very specific. You can use it to try and argue intent, but that's a different discussion.

You are using an ability. You then may not ever use the consequence of that ability (the rule, for example MH) that turn, but have still had to do something in order to have that chance.

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

You're conflating special rules with abilities. You shouldn't - they aren't the same thing.
When nos refers to ability, he's referring to the choosing that the PEC grants.

What is in question here is if the wargear to nominate the rule can be used or not because the decision is made at the start of the turn. As I said though, wargear in itself is not an ability or specail rule. The PEN isn't even listed under the Tau Special Rules, it is listed in the signature systems area of the codex. The wording doesn't even say that the PEN is used, the rules says pick a rule, you have that rule. It doesn't give me an option to not use it. Its says I pick a rule and I have that rule.

None of which is relevant - you're still using it to pick a rule.

Exactly, the way they are reading it is preposterous. Space Marine Chapter Traits would be useless for deepstriking units.

It's preposterous because some things might not work the way you're expecting? What?
And the UM Chapter Tactics is the only one potentially affected by this. I say potentially because it's not the deep-striking unit activating the rule. But let's not let actual rules get in the way of your crusade.

Exactly, the way they are reading it is preposterous. Space Marine Chapter Traits would be useless for deepstriking units.

It's preposterous because some things might not work the way you're expecting? What?
And the UM Chapter Tactics is the only one potentially affected by this. I say potentially because it's not the deep-striking unit activating the rule. But let's not let actual rules get in the way of your crusade.

There's nothing on page 125 that limits the rule to only optional abilities.
And you're incorrect about your statement that a unit cannot benefit from a blessing. There is no rule support for the statement that page 125 restricts benefits. The unit cannot use them, but another unit can cast those abilities.